back to article Time to ditch the front door key? Nest's new wireless smart lock is surprisingly convenient

It's something we all do when we get home: rummage around in your pockets or bag, find your keys, identify the one you want and then stick it in your front door to gain access. If you are one of the roughly 28 per cent of households that have a security system, you then need to go punch in a code to turn the alarm off. It's …

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          1. Charles 9

            Re: Keyless entry for residential property?

            @ David Webb:

            I believe the previous poster was referring to a scenario when the front door WAS the fire escape because it's the ONLY egress from the flat, being built in a time when a second egress wasn't mandated or possible.

            Although, as I do not reside there, I myself question this, as last I checked, most municipal fire codes in the US that I know require ALL points of occupancy to have at least TWO points of egress in case one is blocked by fire. AND that older buildings needed the second egress retrofitted in at some point in the past by way of evolving fire ordinances.

    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: Keyless entry for residential property?

      Insurance company - "You were burgled but there's no sign of forced entry? That's a shame. Goodbye."

      This type house security is reletively modern. Car companies have been doing to for longer. And look how many "secure" cars are stolen using tech to by-pass the keyless security,

      1. Fungus Bob

        Re: Keyless entry for residential property?

        "And look how many "secure" cars are stolen using tech to by-pass the keyless security,"

        While I agree that the security in the product may just be imaginary, the new car security systems are usually bypassed with a flatbed tow truck. It's a bit more difficult to tow a house.

  1. Jan 0 Silver badge

    Lock makers that you can trust?

    The easy way to stop your door being kicked in is to have an outward opening door, meaning that the would be intruder has to kick the entire door frame in!

    I'm not sure that I'd trust the company that convinced most UK households in the last century to use its easily circumvented rim locks. If I wanted one less key, I might consider an Abloy mechanical combination lock, but Abloy keys are so small and neat that I'll continue to use their keys.

    As for the IoT stuff, well your home IT system could detect your 'phone as you approached and switch the house on, or you could send it a message from further away if it needs to heat or cool some rooms.

    1. Gene Cash Silver badge

      Re: Lock makers that you can trust?

      > home IT system could detect your 'phone as you approached

      Yes, I have an Android app that I wrote that tells the Raspberry Pi to open the garage door when I'm 70 meters from home. It also turns off the GPS and cell data on the phone, then turns on wifi. It then closes the door after I ride in, and unlocks the door from the garage to the house.

      It uses TLS security that checks that the phone presents a valid certificate.

      You have to root the hell out of the phone because Google don't want a regular app controlling the cell data connection and turning the GPS on/off.

      It was borne out of the fact that the controller board and limit-switch system of my 25 year old garage door opener died, so I hooked up the Pi and some reed switches, plus the fact it's a pain in the ass to deal with a garage door opener on a motorcycle.

      Of course if the power fails, or the phone dies, I have to dig out the key and try to remember where my front door is... (edit: not helped by the fact that my "front" door is almost around the back of the house)

      1. quxinot

        Re: Lock makers that you can trust?

        > plus the fact it's a pain in the ass to deal with a garage door opener on a motorcycle.<

        Wire a spare opener onto the motorcycle and use an addon switch (PMR makes some nice ones).

        Arguably insecure if the bike is stolen, but to be fair if your car is stolen and has an opener in it, you're in the same boat as far as having an opener floating around out there.

      2. Stoneshop
        Trollface

        Re: Lock makers that you can trust?

        plus the fact it's a pain in the ass to deal with a garage door opener on a motorcycle.

        You may want to rethink the shape of the remote then.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Lock makers that you can trust?

      In the UK most of our doors lock into multi point latches into the door frame, built into the door, and we can swap out the key barrel. There are multiple ways to secure the door. If you are trusting a single latch mechanism, then yes, you would need an entire frame to stop it being pushed in.

      1. TonyHoyle

        Re: Lock makers that you can trust?

        This lock isn't compatible with modern doors like that - only old style wooden doors.

        Not that this is likely to be a problem because google don't sell it in the UK or even appear to have any plans to (something that the register completely forgot to mention for some reason).

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Lock makers that you can trust?

        In the UK most of our doors lock into multi point latches into the door frame,

        But the majority of doors with multipoint locks feature UPVC panels that don't resist a good kicking. You certainly can buy robust composite, wood or steel doors, but those appear to be very much in the minority. But in any event, it is the glass of doors or windows that is the weakest point against a forced entry.

        The best defence against burglary is a high detection and successful prosecution rate (of the perpetrators).

        1. Adam 52 Silver badge

          Re: Lock makers that you can trust?

          "The best defence against burglary is a high detection and successful prosecution rate (of the perpetrators)."

          It's true, a conviction for burglary will put your local burglar out of action for a few hours whilst they're in police custody being charged and at court; during which time they'll be unable to break in anywhere.

          But I suspect you thought that the small fine (which will go unpaid) or community service (which will go unserved) would be a deterrent.

          Unless there's been violence and a weapon used then a custodial sentence is unlikely. Or by some miracle it's gone before a proper judge rather than a magistrate defendant has annoyed them by skipping bail.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: multi point latches

        Most insurers demand multi point latches at both the front and the back door so if you don't have one I'd check your policy.

        I also wouldn't worry about the door, it's the windows these days, someone I know had their car stolen when the thieves took the frame out of the front window.

    3. Christoph

      Re: Lock makers that you can trust?

      If your door opens outwards an intruder can grab it and pull it all the way open. If it opens inwards you can block it.

      1. JulieM Silver badge

        Re: Lock makers that you can trust?

        All 65kg. of me?

        1. Charles 9

          Re: Lock makers that you can trust?

          It's a lot easier to buttress against a push than to guard against a pull. Positioned right, even 65kg can resist quite a force. Once saw a TV ad for a little brass thing you stick in the floor that could take some serious abuse; odds are the door fails before it.

          There are several reasons most home doors open inward. One is as mentioned to allow them to be barred or barricaded. Another is (with entry doors) to make it easier to escape hostile weather (with businesses it's usually the reverse; you want it easier to get OUT than IN due to the potential for crushes in an emergency).

          1. muddysteve

            Re: Lock makers that you can trust?

            Do you really want to open a door outward into your visitor's face?

            1. teebie

              Re: Lock makers that you can trust?

              Often

    4. JulieM Silver badge

      Outward Opening Front Doors

      Nice idea, but I get the impression it might be a problem in buildings which front directly onto the street. Such as the Victorian two-up, two-down I live in. (Complete with outside toilet; whose door opens inwards for a different reason that should be obvious.)

    5. Fatman

      Re: Lock makers that you can trust?

      <quote>...to have an outward opening door...</quote>

      One of the disadvantages of an outward swinging door is that the hinge pins are exposed. Unless you have tamper resistant hinges, removing the hinge pins is very easy to do.

  2. Gene Cash Silver badge

    Convenient... until it's discontinued

    So how long before Google decides it's not enough of a profit center and discontinues it, like they did with Revolv and everything else other than search, maps, and Android?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Convenient... until it's discontinued

      Not long at all. Google door locks are a finite (and IMHO small) market, buyers won't replace them if they fail quickly, so there's little repeat business, and Google will only remain in the game if buyers subscribe to the Google "home" model of multiple appliances all interconnected, and all passing lots of lovely data back to Mountain View.

      Which means that standalone purchases (with the Nest Connect) won't contribute to Google's decision about dumping the product, and the longevity of the product is decided by the tiny, tiny number of people willing to spend several thousand on Google products.

  3. alain williams Silver badge

    How long before forced upgrade ...

    when google decides that it will no longer support that model and wants you to buy a new one ?

    The lock in my front door is 30+ years old ... will this Nest product still be working in 30 years ?

    1. pɹɐʍoɔ snoɯʎuouɐ

      Re: How long before forced upgrade ...

      "The lock in my front door is 30+ years old"

      as far as security of a lock that's been in use for 30 years, I would imagine the tumblers in that lock are quite worn. Someone with the the most basic knowlage on how to pick a lock could open it. When I say basic, has seen how to position a tensioner and wiggle a probe over the tumblers from a kit they bought from ebay for a fiver.

      being 30 years old, it would have been made in the mid to late 80's most likely in or around Birmingham and being British made, the tumblers would most likely be made from quality stainless steel, but still would have worn down over 30 years.. from the mid 90's onwards locks were sent overseas to be made as cheap as possible, lighter metals that would weir out within 10 years with just moderate use.....

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: How long before forced upgrade ...

        If you know how to pick a lock it doesn't matter if the tumblers are worn or not. If you don't know, it also doesn't matter if they are worn. If you usually enter via your garage and don't insert a key in your front door very often, even over 30 years it will still be in like-new condition.

        You're dodging the real issue though, which is that Google is unlikely to support this Nest lock for more than about five years, so the true cost will be vastly higher than a regular lock over a 30 year period. Maybe the sort of people buying these figure they'll be in a new house in five years, or aren't smart enough to understand that the support window for tech (especially where Google is concerned) is quite short.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: How long before forced upgrade ...

          If you know how to pick a lock it doesn't matter if the tumblers are worn or not. If you don't know, it also doesn't matter if they are worn.

          that's not entirely true.

          a standard cylinder lock, straight from the box, new from the factory is probably the most simple lock to open without a key. A moderately skilled picker can do it within a minute or two... a 30 year old lock that was never modified will be open as quick as in the movies to a skilled picker.. no longer than 2 minutes for an unskilled, but knows what "indicators" they are looking for.

          what many people do is make modifications to the lock so that it hides the indicators you are looking for when trying to tip a tumbler. it gives a false indicator. Then the only way to get past that false indicator is to reset. with a lock that has 5 tumblers, by the time you get to the 3rd or 4th tumbler and you have hit 2 or three false indicators you are probably 20 to 30 min in at trying to pick it.

          at the end of the day, very few locks are pickproof, if any. but its about how long it takes. A thief is not going to spend much more time picking a lock than would look normal for someone opening a door with a key. they will go and look for a quicker entry point. you will never make your home impenetrable to an unauthorised entry that is practical to live with. Best you can do is make it too much of a pain in the arse.

          I used to run a guest house in Blackpool, We used to refuse stag an hen groups because they were just too much of a headache and the bane of my life was keys. the amount of people that would loose keys was getting stupid. We ended up with RFID keyfobs on all the doors so that a guest could open the front door and the room door with a single fob. if they lost them it was not a big deal to cancel the fob off the system and program a new one. Fobs used to cost about £2 each but the guests thought they cost a lot more so where more careful with them. In the 5 years we used them I think we lost 2 where the previous 10 years we had to put a new lock set on every door just to be sure....

          I still use the key-fob on our front door, it runs on mains power and gets a battery backup from the alarm system and if that was to run out then the door lock would fail in a locked position and you had to revert to using a key. To date it has never failed and does get tested regularly, as well as the ability to open with a key,,,,

      2. Sgt_Oddball

        Re: How long before forced upgrade ...

        Or you could have the fun I've got going on... developer thought that it'd be good to use commercial grade stuff for everything. Wish does mean we've got nice composite wooden doors but the mortice and and latch is some weird size that no one stocks (being larger that normal) and had lead me down the rabbit hole of finding out that in the UK we have about 5 different lock types commonly. Two of them most certainly can't use this sort of lock (think old fashioned 5 pin long key or pvc door locks). Whislt the other 3 world be possible but requires making sure customers know the difference (yale type, euro profile and oval profile. I'm also aware of how little effort is required to get round the euro/oval profile doors and is worrying when you think about it)

  4. AndrueC Silver badge
    Meh

    To be honest I'd prefer a hands-less key. Almost like that of my car. I know there are drawbacks to it which is why it'll be a long time before I fit such a thing, But the idea of my front door automatically unlocking as I approach it does appeal. My car almost does that except that I have to put my hand through the handle and wait half a second. And when leaving work what I actually have to do is walk to the front door, put my hand through the handle, wait half a second, then step back to the rear of the car to put my bag on the back seat. If I drove the car forward into the bay it might work better but I prefer to back into parking bays.

    But yeah the security aspects of some kind of near-field presence detection do bother me and I think we all know about the MITM attack vector around keyless entry on cars so that needs to be resolved.

    As for the thermostat control - big meh. I have a better idea. Why doesn't the reviewer just fit a timer to his system and tell it to get the room temperature where they want it by - oh - 6pm on a week day? Chances are that's when they usually arrive home and that means instead of walking into a hot house with the air con blasting a cold draft everywhere they will walk into a room that is already at the right temperature and the air con softly murmuring. The neat thing about that is that timer control systems have been available for just that task for several decades now. And they are cheap.

    1. Charles 9

      "The neat thing about that is that timer control systems have been available for just that task for several decades now. And they are cheap."

      But then other people's lives don't run to a schedule. Say they're on call or simply don't have the same job every day. Then wouldn't a proximity-based system be the best option given there's no consistent time for a timer to work?

      1. AndrueC Silver badge
        Meh

        For people with a truly random schedule a proximity based system might be the best heating/cooling system they can hope for. But most people's lives just aren't that random. This might be the 21st century but 9-to-5 is still a thing for most of us,.

        1. Charles 9

          Not where I stand. Over the years I've seen people come in earlier and earlier until I regularly see people who once reporting in for the 7-o-clock shift come in for coffee and donuts before 4 in the morning. Seems bosses are trying to look for the people who have evolved beyond the need for sleep ("Bed is for the dead" and all that).

  5. hugo tyson

    Why's it mounted on the door?

    Why do they keep mounting locks on the door? If it were mounted on/in the frame, with the striker plate/box in the door, then you could run wires to it for power and cat5, solving several problems....

    1. Blue Pumpkin

      Re: Why's it mounted on the door?

      Or embed terminals in the deadlock to make contact with those in the box mounted on the frame / wall.

    2. Warm Braw

      Re: Why's it mounted on the door?

      I assume because you want the handle on the door as that's the bit that moves. Having the handle operate the latch means that opening the door is a one-handed operation and integrating the deadbolt makes for a one box solution.

      You'd need quite a big frame to fit a decent traditional bolt (because it has to be able to accommodate the bit that would be in the door when the door is unlocked).

      A lot of door entry systems use electric strike plates (precisely because of the ease of wiring), though they always seem quite flimsy to me. I suppose you could make an unlocking strike from a motorized vertical bolt in the frame - that might be be a bit more secure without having to rebuild the entire entrace to accommodate it.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Why's it mounted on the door?

        I assume because you want the handle on the door as that's the bit that moves. Having the handle operate the latch means that opening the door is a one-handed operation and integrating the deadbolt makes for a one box solution.

        But the handle *never* operates the deadbolt - only the latch. If the bolt were withdrawn into the wall, the handle and latch would still work as advertised.

        I wouldn't build the lock into the frame, I'd build it into the wall. Frame size then becomes irrelevant.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Why's it mounted on the door?

      Why do they keep mounting locks on the door?

      You are correct that frame-mounted would be superior in many ways, but the reason they are not offering that is simple - ease of retrofit.

  6. Will Godfrey Silver badge
    Thumb Down

    Nope

    My front door key is on the same ring as my car key, so it will already be in my hand.

    The lock is a common pattern that is reasonably secure, as well as benefiting from a degree of 'security by obscurity'. The chance of anyone bar a locksmith having a key that will fit is pretty remote. Besides, I have pretty good neighbours who would take interest in someone standing there trying a bunch of keys!

    Nobody can take their time secretly hacking it while sitting in a car in the street, and no organisation can suddenly withdraw access without warning.

    It is unaffected by power failures of any sort.

    As for break-ins, once in that scenario all bets are off.

    1. DJO Silver badge

      Re: Nope

      I've seen proof of concept of cutting keys from a photograph so hold those keys tight and look out for parked vans with tinted windows.

      1. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
        Holmes

        Re: Nope

        One of my ex-bosses cut a key from memory & used it successfully.

        The prison service did take a rather dim view of that activity.

        https://www.independent.co.uk/news/chapter-of-errors-led-to-parkhurst-escape-1577985.html

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Nice advertising

    Now, the first, second and third through twenty-fifth rules of home automation: do not rely on a fucking "cloud". Rules 26 onwards are variations of "especially not Google's".

    Regardless of any possible and very much debatable advantages convenience-wise:

    1. The bit about not knowing where to drill is utter bollocks and shows the author doesn't know the first thing about locks or methods of entry in general.

    2. Given that the thing is battery-powered a well-prepared homeowner will still want to have at least one other door with a classic lock, for which a key must be available outside the house, else an unplanned battery change could get expensive, what with involving destructive entry.

    3. If I need to enter your place there is a good chance the door is not the first point of entry that I will check. Windows are usually more convenient to defeat and are often found open in the first place (and can be cheaper to replace if damage minimisation enters into the equation). In moments of extreme expedience, it is not unheard of to ram a wall with a heavy vehicle. In beween those two there are hundreds of ways of getting in, destructive or non-destructive, silent or noisy, stealthty or non-stealthy, quick or slow.

    Talking in an emergency services context, but the principles are applicable whatever your motivation for going into someone's residence.

    Apart from leaving in a civilised place, I have come to find it so pointless over the years that my front door is never locked. Provides about the same security as your usual residential arrangement but beat that solution in terms of price and convenience if you can.

    1. eldakka

      Re: Nice advertising

      Mostly agree with what you say, however a few points:

      > 2. Given that the thing is battery-powered a well-prepared homeowner will still want to have at least one other door with a classic lock, for which a key must be available outside the house, else an unplanned battery change could get expensive, what with involving destructive entry.

      As the article itself states, there is an external battery terminal that can be used to hook up a 7-volt battery to provide enough power to enable a single unlock cycle. I have a stand-alone (non-smart) electronic lock and it has standard 9-volt battery external terminal to power it in an emergency.

      > Apart from leaving in a civilised place, I have come to find it so pointless over the years that my front door is never locked. Provides about the same security as your usual residential arrangement but beat that solution in terms of price and convenience if you can.

      This is a very bad idea. Most residential home burglaries are burglaries of opportunity. Lowlifes walk around the streets, walking up to front doors (or back doors at night) and see if it's open. If it's locked, move on to the next house. If it's unlocked walk in, steal anything they can near the front door area - or further in if the house is unoccupied.

      This happened to me once, unlocked front door because I was home. The front door and couple adjacent rooms (couple bedrooms) were un-observable from the location the rest of the residents were in at the time. The prick walked off with about £2500 of loose valuables from the first room (watches, some electronic media-player type devices. a passport, etc) and would have been in and out in less than a minute.

      A friend was up late one night (2 or 3 am) watching TV, went to the kitchen and a man was walking out of the unlocked back sliding glass door and ran off. He'd come in the unlocked back door, found my mates wallet on the kitchen table, and ran off with it.

      This is normal and the most common type of burglary. More planned ones where locked premises are burgled are significantly rarer.

      So even cheap locks will reduce your likelihood of being burgled - if they are used.

      1. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge
        Trollface

        Re: Nice advertising

        there is an external battery terminal that can be used to hook up a 7-volt battery to provide enough power to enable a single unlock cycle. I have a stand-alone (non-smart) electronic lock and it has standard 9-volt battery external terminal to power it in an emergency.

        How do you think either will stand up to 230V or more being put through those from my portable inverter?

        Maybe try it before someone else does ;)

        1. eldakka

          Re: Nice advertising

          How do you think either will stand up to 230V or more being put through those from my portable inverter?

          Probably the same as 90% of the house-locks in use out there would stand up to a bump key (hint, they don't).

          The sort of criminal who is looking to break in who would be carrying something like that would also likely be carrying a bump key.

          Or, if they were destructively inclined such that they would be breaking the locks (i.e. be putting 230V or more through an electronic lock), then breaking a window or kicking a door in would also likely be part of their tool kit.

          Besides, this isn't a Star Trek bridge control console, unlike them we do have these things called fuses that can be placed in-line to prevent a power surge from propagating through the system. Sure, it might mean I can no longer apply an external battery to provide the power to open it in a flat-battery situation (assuming the fuse/cut-out circuitry isn't user replaceable), but I'd rather a tampered-with but still locked lock than a tampered-with but unlocked lock (say that fast 5 times...).

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Facepalm

    "Nest's new wireless smart lock is surprisingly convenient"

    Leaving the door open is also "surprisingly Convenient"...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "Nest's new wireless smart lock is surprisingly convenient"

      > Leaving the door open is also "surprisingly Convenient"...

      Not really, it gets cold in the winter and dusty + full of bugs (no pun) in the summer.

      Leaving the door unlocked however, that is a different story. See post above yours.

  9. js6898

    why a 7v battery? 9v maybe but 7v? yes they are available of course but who has a spare 7v battery lying around ?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      > why a 7v battery? 9v maybe but 7v? yes they are available of course but who has a spare 7v battery lying around ?

      Why a 9v battery? Make it 24v so if it's about to run out you can borrow one from your artic parked on the driveway.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "why a 7v battery?"

      Possibly a nominal 9v alkaline battery that allows for some shelf-life self-discharge?

      Many NiMh rechargeable PP3 batteries are 7.2v when fully charged viz 6 x 1.2v cells. Others give 8.4v - and some have enough cells to give a good 9v.

      1. Mage Silver badge

        7V

        Does sound sort of nominal.

        But a good pocket radio design even 50 years ago assumed end point of a 9V PP3 was about 5.6V. The endpoint of a cell is regarded as about 0.9, or 1V to 1.05V for decent life on an NiCd or NiMH, which are only 7.2V or 8.4V fully charged (6 cells vs 7 cells). An Alkaline PP3 with 6 cells is almost 10V when fresh with no load. Some use 6 x cylindrical cells like AAAA and some slightly higher capacity use 6 stacked rounded corner button cells. The Rechargeable are only button type if 7 cells, otherwise cylindrical or button. The "Carbon" layer PP3 are about 460mAH, due to layer construction, and are better than cylindrical Zinc Carbon or Zinc Chloride, though shorter shelf life than Alkaline PP3.

    3. ab-gam
      FAIL

      What is this "7v battery" you speak of?

      1- I'm a technically inclined person, and I've been kicking around for many more decades than I care to contemplate, but I've never heard of such a beast. Is this something Euro/Brit specific like round power outlets?

      2- Even if / when I find out what said beast is, I doubt I'll be able to find one easily in my moment of need.

      1. Boothy

        Re: What is this "7v battery" you speak of?

        @ab-gam

        Nope, not a Brit/UK thing, plus this lock seems to be designed for the US market, and from a US company, so I don't think there is much UK/Euro influence in there.

        A very odd voltage indeed. I could understand a 9v PP3 type battery, common everywhere as far as I know, small and convenient. So would have thought a PP3 would be a much better option.

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