back to article Dodgy parking firms to be denied access to Brit driver database

Rogue private parking firms are to be stripped of the ability to access the UK government's driver database. Private parking firms can buy vehicle-keeper records from the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) for £2.50 a pop, which they use to slap tickets on car owners for parking violations on private land. The number …

      1. ukgnome

        Depends on the type of ticket dear fellow.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        > The advice to ignore it was old advice which is no longer relevant.

        And pray tell, *what* would be the new advice then?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          The is no one size fits all new advice. You need to do some research, however a good one is the date of offence compared to when it was actioned. More than a couple of weeks - see relevant legislation for the exact timings - and you can just write back saying it wasn't valid.

    1. Inventor of the Marmite Laser Silver badge

      Ignore is a big risk nowadays

      Check out the many comments on Pepipoo regarding cases lost simply because the tickets and followup letters were ignored. Cases robustly refuted and, if necessary, robustly defended, usually succeed.

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    This all started because the Tory government introduced the POFA 2012.

    This allowed private parking companies to hold the keeper liable for parking charges if they couldn't determine the driver.

    If you want to scrap dodgey parking companies just scrap the relevant sections POFA 2012.

    Scotland has no keeper liability and yet the country has not descended into anarchy

    1. lglethal Silver badge
      Joke

      "... yet the country has not descended into anarchy"

      I've been in Edinburgh on a friday night. Would you like to rethink that statement?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        > I've been in Edinburgh on a friday night.

        It's not anarchy. It's carefully planned chaos.

    2. Adam 52 Silver badge

      Scotland has completely different trespass law so it was impossible for the dodgy parking firms to operate in the first place, hence no need for the botched Cameron era regulation.

      1. regprentice

        They do though. I'm Scotland the best advice is to simply ignore the letters.

        It's a speculative punt on the dodgy firms part, a reasonable proportion of punters must pay up,probably when they get the letter that looks like it's from a legal firm (but isn't).

        What enrages me is the advice given by the CAB, MSE, Which and so on is to pay the fines. Absolutely nuts and a clear indication of how spineless these organisations are.

  2. adam payne

    The British Parking Association welcomed the move. Chief exec Andrew Pester said that a "single, mandatory code of practice across the whole sector is important to ensure that unscrupulous providers don't undermine the parking sector with bad practice"

    A mandatory code of practice that unscrupulous companies will ignore as much as possible.

    I'm sure quite a few people would say they are all unscrupulous.

    1. big_D Silver badge

      Bring in standard pricing for fines. No suddenly slapping on a couple of hundred quid, just for the giggles.

      I remember coming to Germany and finding that the local parking fine for no ticket was less than that for 1 hour of parking in Shaftsbury Avenue, London...

      So far, I have been "lucky", in over 30 years of driving, I have never had a parking fine.

      1. Wensleydale Cheese
        Happy

        "I remember coming to Germany and finding that the local parking fine for no ticket was less than that for 1 hour of parking in Shaftsbury Avenue, London..."

        There's a psychological effect at work here. When the initial charges for parking are high and the fines are punitive, you end up resenting getting caught.

        Where the initial charges and fines for not paying them are reasonable, you are more likely to accept the responsibility yourself and say "My fault, I mustn't do that again".

        Ditto with speeding fines. Affordable fines without threats to your driving licence in the form of points don't create resentment, and you are more likely to accept responsibility yourself. It becomes a matter of pride rather than what you can get away with.

        "So far, I have been "lucky", in over 30 years of driving, I have never had a parking fine."

        There we go. Something you can be proud of.

      2. Inventor of the Marmite Laser Silver badge

        @big_D

        Private tickets ain't fines

    2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      "A mandatory code of practice that unscrupulous companies will ignore as much as possible."

      IIRC, the BPA came into existence with it's voluntary code of conduct because a mandatory was was the only other option. They have failed, hence the new Bill.

  3. Lysenko

    GDPR

    As title. I don't recall giving the DVLA permission to share data with "Arthur Daley Parking Ltd." This may be a pre-emptive attempt to grab credit for simply obeying incoming law.

    1. TRT Silver badge

      Re: GDPR

      DVLA are a GDPR exempted authority, I'm afraid.

      1. Lysenko

        Re: GDPR

        DVLA are a GDPR exempted authority, I'm afraid.

        They're not exempt, they just rely on the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002, R.27 for authority to share such data. How that will shake down in respect of GDPR and potential implicit repeal/amendment will take case law to resolve.

        The following quote from the DVLA Head of Data Sharing illustrates this:

        "[I] can confirm that appropriate procedures to ensure the same level of assurance [as with the preceding DPA] will be in place to meet the requirements of the new General Data Protection Regulation in May 2018."

        ...if he was asserting absolute exemption this would be pointlessly mendacious. Given that cash from parking cowboys is fairly trivial compared to overall licensing revenue, they may be calculating that getting some good PR, avoiding tiresome court wrangles and bankrupting parasitic scum is a pretty good overall strategy.

        1. TRT Silver badge

          Re: GDPR

          Yes, yes, it's not an absolute and explicit exemption from the Act in its entirety - the Act has derogations which allow a nation to exempt e.g. the enforcement of civil law matters, etc, and yes, this hasn't yet been tested by case law. The RVR 2002 hasn't been amended as part of the bill. Though some law about HGVs was. Weirdly.

  4. 0laf
    Trollface

    Lol. Try Perth. Now they're going to fine you if you park your car and cross the road to go for a piss.

    https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/fp/motorists-hit-100-fines-tayside-car-park-due-bizarre-terms/

  5. TonyJ

    Perhaps block the directors from having access too

    Eventually they'll run out of friends and relatives to act on their replacement companies.

    Funnily enough I've just responded to the courts about a parking fine issues in 2016. I parked at the same car park for weeks, paying on an app.

    One evening I was poorly and fell asleep missing the alert on my phone.

    As soon as I noticed the next morning, I paid again but by then I'd had a ticket.

    The car park was 99% empty at night.

    The best bits are that I have all the receipts up to and beyond the incident, I have the automated responses from the legal company showing I've tried to contact them and a copy of a their letter explicitly claiming I didn't.

    I also have a screen shot of their own site not actually allowing me to pay when I decided it might be easier in the long run in a moment of weakness.

    So all in all I am quite looking forward now to seeing them in court. Even if I lose at this point, it's only another 50 quid and some time so really worth having a go.

    1. David Nash Silver badge

      Re: Perhaps block the directors from having access too

      My story....I park at the station and pay monthly by phone.

      Once or twice they have given me a ticket "for not displaying a valid permit". Idiots, I paid by phone, there is no permit, they have a record of my reg. number.

      The previous time it happened I sent them a letter and they "let me off with a warning not to do it [what???] again".

      The most recent time it happened was in autumn 2016 and I appealed, they refused. I went through the process and sent all the paperwork (receipt, text message screenshot, photo of sign in car park) to POPLA, the "Parking On Private Land Appeals" body. They delayed, and delayed, and delayed, eventually said "we're putting this one on hold because of a doubt about whether it comes under POPLA jurisdiction". Or words to that effect.

      Still no news. They have no case though.

      1. channelswimmer

        Re: Perhaps block the directors from having access too

        > My story....I park at the station and pay monthly by phone.

        In which case POPLA aren't involved as it is a station and so covered by bylaws. All you have to do is not name the driver (unly the driver is liable under bylaws, there can be no keeper liability as PoFA 2012 doesn't apply), you then string them along for six months, at which point you don't have to pay anything.

        1. Adam 52 Silver badge

          Re: Perhaps block the directors from having access too

          What channelswimmer said.

          Although watch out for some station car parks that have been sold off into private (more private than National Rail) ownership.

          1. David Nash Silver badge

            Re: Perhaps block the directors from having access too

            Re. Station car parks. I don't know how to tell whether it's private or not. It's certainly administered by a private company, not the railway, but I assume that was a contract.

  6. This post has been deleted by its author

    1. John Robson Silver badge

      Re: Petty Speeding

      "Safety - I think not! Why's everyone breaking and changing lane. Oh a camera."

      Very easy - just don't do nearly 60 in a 50mph limit.

      Oh, and learn to spell... breaking is very different from braking.

      1. Ben Tasker

        Re: Petty Speeding

        > Oh, and learn to spell... breaking is very different from braking.

        Perhaps he means they're breaking their concentration?

        Which, to be fair, camera's (especially surprise ones) do tend to do, because some people start paying more attention to the speedo than the road.

        Not that all camera's are bad, mind. There are a couple of places near me where the camera is very much needed because of poor (well, terrible) junction design and road layout. You'd hope, though, that sooner or later they'd spend some money to correct the layout....

        But, like you say, the easiest way is to avoid going (too much) over the speed limit. Doing 58 in a 50 is an example of too much, I'd be far more sympathetic if it was 51-54 given that speeds drift a bit and attention should really be on the road. If you can't tell the difference between 58 and 50 though, it's questionable how much attention you're actually paying.

        1. John Robson Silver badge

          Re: Petty Speeding

          > Perhaps he means they're breaking their concentration?

          He didn't...

          > Which, to be fair, camera's (especially surprise ones) do tend to do, because some people start paying more attention to the speedo than the road.

          This is why one of the non-negotiable features of cars I get is a speed limiter. It's a function of the cruise control.

          I do tend to find that when I haven't set it, I am still cruising along a road at exactly the speed limit...

          > Not that all camera's are bad, mind. There are a couple of places near me where the camera is very much needed because of poor (well, terrible) junction design and road layout. You'd hope, though, that sooner or later they'd spend some money to correct the layout....

          Yes - changing the layout is preferable...

          There is no real reason to be cross about any speed cameras, it's generally trivial to actually obey the law.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Petty Speeding

            People generally don't get speeding tickets for speeding. It's usually because they're not paying attention which is far, far worse than speeding. Of course, the combination of the two is worse still.

            Speed cameras are generally pretty obvious as they're painted yellow. And it still amazes me how many people speed through average speed zones just to gain 20 seconds. Why risk a ticket for that?

          2. Adrian 4

            Re: Petty Speeding

            A speed limiter ? Cruise control works as a MINIMUM speed limiter. The only MAXIMUM limiters I've seen (in my admittedly limited experience of current cars) is just a beeper. I can think of many good reasons why this is the case, but it's also somewhat inconvenient if you want to rely on it.

            Also, a useful speed limiter would not only have to communicate with the satnav (and somehow ensure it was up to date with local law changes) but also with variable speed limits on motorways, temporary speed limits at roadworks, etc. etc.

            1. John Robson Silver badge

              Re: Petty Speeding

              My car has a maximum limiter.

              It is one function of the cruise control, max speed - throttle control, but won’t exceed set speed unless I floor it (the kick down detector will override the speed limiter)

              It doesn’t need satnav, I have buttons on the wheel...

            2. d3vy

              Re: Petty Speeding

              "A speed limiter ? Cruise control works as a MINIMUM speed limiter. The only MAXIMUM limiters I've seen (in my admittedly limited experience of current cars) is just a beeper."

              Mercedes have speed limiters which prevent you going over a predefined speed, pay a bit more and you can hook it up to a camera that attempts to read road signs to warn you if it's set too high.

              Press the accelerator to the floor and it disables the limiter so that you can set it for 70 (80) on the motorway but still overtake when you need to.

            3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

              Re: Petty Speeding

              "A speed limiter ? Cruise control works as a MINIMUM speed limiter. The only MAXIMUM limiters I've seen (in my admittedly limited experience of current cars) is just a beeper."

              Every car I've driven in the last five years with cruise control also has a speed limiter. Even the crappy mid-range Kia Ceed I normally drive, which is a long way from being a high end or luxury brand/model. It's an either/or toggle setting and you manually set the upper speed limit, starting from whatever your current speed is. The standard seems to be a green speedo-like indicator lamp for cruise control and a similar but white one for speed limiter,

            4. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Petty Speeding

              > but also with variable speed limits on motorways, temporary speed limits at roadworks, etc. etc.

              That is called traffic sign recognition and is fairly standard these days. Mine can read time-dependent restrictions (e.g., "Max 120 zwischen 06.00 und 18.00 Uhr", pretty common in Germany) and gets an input from the rain sensor so it knows when to apply the wet limit. However, it is up to me (the driver) to adapt my actual speed to the conditions.

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Petty Speeding

            > This is why one of the non-negotiable features of cars I get is a speed limiter. It's a function of the cruise control.

            Adaptive Cruise Control, mate. Best advancement in car technology since the wheel itself.

            It helps you to stay within safe speed *and* distance limits, and frees up brain power to concentrate on proper defensive driving. Plus you save fuel too.

            1. John Robson Silver badge

              Re: Petty Speeding

              >> This is why one of the non-negotiable features of cars I get is a speed limiter. It's a function of the cruise control.

              >Adaptive Cruise Control, mate. Best advancement in car technology since the wheel itself.

              and at the point when it becomes available in my price range it will be taken up - but the speed limiter is already available in my price bracket. And since I expect to be using this car for another 8 years or so... Maybe I'll not have to drive the next one ;)

              I'd at least like to be able to have a car drive itself down the motorway, which seems eminently reasonable to me...

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Petty Speeding

                > and at the point when it becomes available in my price range it will be taken up

                With autonomous emergency braking being made compulsory in Europe by 2020 or so, and since that and ACC are closely related systems, plus with the competition from self-driving cars, I very much expect it to be a standard feature by the time you get another car.

                Btw, I could almost swear that I already saw it as an option in cars like the VW Polo or similar type. Not 100% sure though--it might have been autonomous braking only.

                > I'd at least like to be able to have a car drive itself down the motorway, which seems eminently reasonable to me...

                Agreed. :-)

          4. Glenturret Single Malt

            Re: Petty Speeding

            Ah, the Illiterate Apostrophe. Do you mean cameras as the plural of camera?

        2. TonyJ

          Re: Petty Speeding

          There's a stretch of road near my home that's had several fatal crashes in the last 18 months.

          Despite lowering the speed limit to 50, it continues to happen.

          So...for stretches like this, if the only way to save lives is to have cameras, so be it.

          But how about more box junction cameras? The number of stupid, unobservant or simply selfish drivers that sit blocking junctions and adding to traffic problems is ridiculous.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Petty Speeding

            >Despite lowering the speed limit to 50, it continues to happen.

            That's the old crying wolf syndrome. Councils across the country have lowered speed limits everywhere. Not just at the dangerous bits, but entire stretches of roads. Motorists wonder why the speed limit is so low, given that it was higher for many years without incident and the result is they tend to ignore the limits. Where limits are enforced by average speed cameras, they tend to speed up after the zone to make up time.

            Where there is an actual blackspot, the road needs to be fixed to remove the danger. Adding limits won't help. Adding cameras might slow people down, but they'll be looking at their speedos and not the road.

            1. ukgnome

              Re: Petty Speeding

              Yes yes that's all well and good, but what has this got to do with dodgy parking firms?

            2. John Robson Silver badge

              Re: Petty Speeding

              > Where there is an actual blackspot, the road needs to be fixed to remove the danger. Adding limits won't help. Adding cameras might slow people down, but they'll be looking at their speedos and not the road.

              We could remove the danger from most roads pretty easily. The danger is basically entirely created by drivers of motor vehicles.

              Seriously though - engineering the risk out of junctions does seem to be beyond the UK:

              http://singletrackworld.com/2018/01/collision-course-why-this-type-of-road-junction-will-keep-killing-cyclists/

            3. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Petty Speeding

              > Motorists wonder why the speed limit is so low

              Cannot speak for any specific spots you may be thinking of, but reduction of speed limits in urban areas in the last two decades has, as a general rule, been primarily driven by air and/or noise pollution, and secondarily in order to increase traffic fluidity.

              A lower speed limit increases road capacity (due to shorter distance between cars and more effective merging) and, paradoxically, can *increase* average traffic speeds by avoiding accordion effects at junctions.

          2. d3vy

            Re: Petty Speeding

            "There's a stretch of road near my home that's had several fatal crashes in the last 18 months."

            There's a national speed limit road near me that has been reduced to a 40 because sphere was a fatal crash... on the face of it seems ok... except the crash in question was a drunk driver doing 80+ who slammed into a lamp post head on. Until then there hadn't been an accident that I'm aware of on that stretch of road.

            Sometimes you have to question the sanity of the people making decisions about the speed limits.

            1. Dodgy Geezer Silver badge

              Re: Petty Speeding

              Exactly!

              The key point about travelling on the road is that it ought to be safe. Making speed limits for road stretches is a very arbitary way of achieving this - sometimes a high speed is quite safe, sometimes even a low speed is dangerous.

              Speed limits are convenient for the authorities to administer, but we ought not to lose sight of the fact that they don't address the real problem. I suspect that driverless cars which are connected to a central monitor at all times might be the only way to really address it.

        3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: Petty Speeding

          "Which, to be fair, camera's (especially surprise ones) do tend to do, because some people start paying more attention to the speedo than the road."

          Yep, that is a real thing. On one of my regular routes, about 500yds after a drop from 70mph to 50mph, just as you go over the brow of the hill is a 50mph speed camera. I regularly see people hitting the brakes when they see the "surprise" camera even though they are doing 50mph or less anyway. Lots of people have a moment of panic when they see a speed camera, especially just after a change to a lower speed limit.

    2. Gene Cash Silver badge

      Re: Petty Speeding

      > mobile stealth tax cameras

      You can do what we do... and steal them. Some of them are worth over $5K.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Petty Speeding

      How about getting a satnav thing bings when you go too fast?

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Petty Speeding

      > accusing people of driving at 58 in a 50 limit and charging them hundreds of pounds to do a drivers awareness course.

      If you are that important that you absolutely must do 58 when the limit is 50, surely you do not mind a little contribution to the public treasure? All the more so if you even get some extra training in exchange!

  7. snowball22
    FAIL

    Due diligence

    At least some of you guys actually parked in the area they patrol.

    I regularly receive fines and threats of legal action from NCP and their sister debt-collecting company for a large HGV truck that overstays its welcome in various motorway service stations across the UK. Their image recognition system which pulls the registration number from the plate is inaccurate and gives them the number for my Aprilia motorcycle.

    There is no human involved in the process. DVLA is simply a data-broker that hands over my details for a fee.

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