back to article Linux Mint 18.3: A breath of fresh air? Well, it's a step into the unGNOME

The Linux Mint project turned out to be an early Christmas present, as it usually does, but this release is perhaps more important than usual given that Mint is much more alone in the Linux distro world than it was just one year ago. 2017 saw Ubuntu abandon the Unity desktop and come back to the GNOME fold, which means that …

          1. DropBear

            Re: Great OS

            Not sure if it's a same thing, but I'm regularly having a similar issue on Debian Stretch - total freeze, no keys or mouse does anything whatsoever except the power button itself. And no, alt-ctrl-whatever doesn't work either. No logs of any problem that I can find. While it might sound like some sort of hardware issue, I don't recall ever having the same problem under either Windows XP / 7 or Jessie, and the hardware itself is rather mature and unchanged / undisturbed for a long time now. It's just weird and incredibly annoying...

          2. cambsukguy

            Re: Great OS

            It happened again, even after updates brought me completely up to date.

            Ctrl-alt-f1 et al do nothing, at least after ten minutes of waiting.

            Ping gives intermittent responses and ssh responded after five minutes but failed to proceed after the prompt.

            I have installed an Ethernet cable now so I may be able to get in via that next time. I don't think it...

            Ah, a console appears. Only a few minutes to execute the kill and the system is back.

            Obviously quicker to reboot but the time invested in five display setups makes it worth the wait.

            Sucks that it happens at all though. Will still leave the Ethernet as a possible way out next time.

        1. John H Woods Silver badge

          Re: Great OS

          "There is no three fingered salute that brings up a menu for a task manager or console terminal."

          Yes there is: CTRL - ALT - F1

          You can also get control of the system using SysReq

          1. mrfill

            Re: Great OS

            ... and how about a mention for Ctrl-Alt-Esc to get the skull and crossbones cursor to instantly kill an app without having to sod about with task managers or consoles.

            Ctrl-Alt-Backspace to shut down X is also quite a blessing for those 'stuck' apps...

        2. Updraft102

          Re: Great OS

          "Added to the fact that there is a nasty ripple in the graphics when I have the temerity to scroll the mouse wheel in either browser, on a new laptop with 8GB of RAM, it seems like it is not a finished system."

          It's called tearing, and it happens because both Firefox and Chrome completely disable hardware acceleration by default in Linux, across the board. They're afraid of issues that may pop up, and they don't want to have to field the calls for help, so they just turn it off. I've never had any issues simply putting it back on in any of the systems I've set up in Linux for my own use (and thus able to know how it went), though I must note also that four is too small of a sample size to really say whether it's a problem or just paranoia on the part of the browser vendors.

          I've never had any such problems as you describe in Mint on any of the various PCs I've put it on. I've had some issues with Kubuntu, the Ubuntu distro with KDE instead of Unity, which failed to work right out of the box (I had a heck of a time getting the installer to even complete; it never got any better after it was installed and updated fully) in my fairly mainstream desktop. Hangs, kernel panics, all kinds of issues happened with regularity. This was in whatever version was current at around the time of Windows 10's release. I switched to Mint KDE after that, then Mint with Cinnamon, and both have been rock solid.

          I've also never had an application hang bring down Linux. App hangs in general have been quite rare in Linux, far more so than in Windows for me, but all I've had to do was click the close button on the application window, and Mint will recognize the hang and ask if I want to force close it, which solves the problem. I've got Gnome System Monitor in the main (start) menu so I can access it easily enough to force close something, but it hasn't been necessary as yet for an app hang.

          I've often wondered if the lack of a three-fingered salute type of thing (which is sometimes the only thing that works when Windows hangs) would cause the sorts of issues you describe, but app hangs are so rare in Linux that there's not much to look at, and I've never had the entire OS hang as Windows seems to love doing.

          I've only been using Linux as primary on some of my machines for a few months now, though I have been using it as a secondary OS ever since I realized how horrible Windows 10 was. I may not have enough hours on it to know what a really nasty application hang can do, but I can tell you that I've had a few in Windows during that same time frame. I don't know that it's any fault of Windows, though... not enough information to go on.

          As far as crashes, I haven't had any in Windows or Linux in a long time. Long enough that I can't remember the last time, other than the panics I had in Kubuntu back then.

        3. ricegf

          Re: Great OS

          Cntl-Alt-t is the 3-finger salute to bring up a terminal in Cinnamon as well as all other desktops I've tried. Type 'xkill', then simply click the hung application to close it.

          If the windowing system is unresponsive due to the hung app, don't reboot as in Windows. Instead, use ctrl-alt-1 and login to the console. Type 'ps -ef', find the process id of the hung application from the list, and type 'kill [process id]' or (if it's so hung that it won't respond to the kill signal) 'kill -9 [process id]'. Then type 'exit' to logout, and use ctrl-alt-7 to return to the gui.

          The Ubuntu forums are a great resource for learning Linux, btw.

      1. John Sanders
        Linux

        Re: Great OS

        >> I do not understand any negative comments about Linux when Linux Mint is available and so easy to use.

        1) The misguided expectation that somehow Linux is another Windows.

        2) Reluctance to spend the required time learning.

        3) Unrealistic scoping of the task, mostly around having to learn how things work.

      2. Pompous Git Silver badge

        Re: Great OS

        I do not understand any negative comments about Linux when Linux Mint is available and so easy to use.
        Can no longer Alt-Tab between Civ 6 and any other running application. Video acceleration with my RX550 video adapter is non-existent. OTOH the persistent erroneous error message about the waster toner bottle in my Lexmark C543DN being full has gone away.

      3. MrBanana

        Re: Great OS

        I've tried Mint a couple of times but didn't like the inability to make a major version change without backing up all your user data and doing a destructive install. An in-place version update is possible with Ubuntu, why not Mint - or have they fixed that with this release?

        And if they've ditched support for KDE then that is another "no from me".

        1. Andy Non Silver badge

          Re: Great OS

          You can just do an upgrade without doing a destructive install. I'm pretty sure that option has been around for a few years as the computer I'm typing on now has gone through several updates over the last two or three years without a fresh destructive install. The option to do a major version upgrade tends to be tucked away in a menu on the Update Manager, rather than it offering it as a normal upgrade.

  1. Ben1892

    but why the red off button - did it really need to change colour ?

  2. WallMeerkat

    Flatpaks sounds like every other container system out there - Docker, Kubernetes etc.

    1. Gordon 10

      Dude that is so wrong I don't even know where to begin on setting you right. Possibly we could start on the difference between hardware and software and go from there?

  3. frank ly

    Timeshift

    If you want to have 'real timeshift', you boot from a Gparted Live CD/USB and save/restore entire partitions. It doesn't take long and it's a proper time machine. (I'm old fashioned.)

    1. Tom 38

      Re: Timeshift

      'Real timeshift' would be be something like ZFS snapshots, which we still don't have in Linux because of dogma.

      1. FrankAlphaXII

        Re: Timeshift

        Does the Linux implementation of OpenZFS not have snapshots? I'm seriously asking, I don't use Linux because of shit like that so I'm actually kind of curious. If it does, I'd say just use it and don't worry about distro specific crap that the developer will just abandon when their feelings get hurt or their attention gets distracted.

        1. Allonymous Coward

          Re: Timeshift

          Does the Linux implementation of OpenZFS not have snapshots?

          Yes it does. We use it in production on Ubuntu 16.04 systems.

        2. Tom 38

          Re: Timeshift

          Does the Linux implementation of OpenZFS not have snapshots?

          It does (and OpenZFS works great on Linux). However, because of the dogma, no distro will include it by default, or make it an installer option, or make it the default FS, or develop deep desktop integration. We could have cool stuff, but RMS says that CDDL isn't free enough to be bundled together with GPL code.

          1. John Sanders
            Linux

            Re: Timeshift

            "However, because of the dogma, no distro will include it by default"

            Son you need to be this tall for this ride.

            Stop talking about IT issues you do not know the details of. ;-)

        3. Stoneshop

          Re: Timeshift

          Does the Linux implementation of OpenZFS not have snapshots?

          $ uname -a

          Linux machine 3.16.0-4-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 3.16.43-2+deb8u5 (2017-09-19) x86_64 GNU/Linux

          root@machine:~

          $ zfs

          missing command

          usage: zfs command args ...

          where 'command' is one of the following:

          create [-p] [-o property=value] ... <filesystem>

          create [-ps] [-b blocksize] [-o property=value] ... -V <size> <volume>

          destroy [-fnpRrv] <filesystem|volume>

          destroy [-dnpRrv] <filesystem|volume>@<snap>[%<snap>][,...]

          destroy <filesystem|volume>#<bookmark>

          snapshot|snap [-r] [-o property=value] ... <filesystem|volume>@<snap> ...

          rollback [-rRf] <snapshot>

          clone [-p] [-o property=value] ... <snapshot> <filesystem|volume>

          promote <clone-filesystem>

          [ ... ]

      2. I Am Spartacus
        Paris Hilton

        Re: Timeshift - RTFM

        https://www.howtoforge.com/tutorial/how-to-use-snapshots-clones-and-replication-in-zfs-on-linux/

        Simples

      3. John Sanders
        Linux

        Re: Timeshift

        >>> 'Real timeshift' would be be something like ZFS snapshots, which we still don't have in Linux because of dogma.

        Nothing stops you from installing ZFS, it is fully supported since 16.04 was released.

        May be dogma, who knows.

        What the dogma prevents is from distributing kernels with ZFS built in, this is by default you can't boot of a ZFS partition, but this is hardly a problem when you can modify your initram to have the ZFS loaded on boot from the classic /boot formatted as EXT4.

        ZFS in Linux is very well supported these days.

        1. Tom 38

          Re: Timeshift

          What the dogma prevents is from distributing kernels with ZFS built in, this is by default you can't boot of a ZFS partition, but this is hardly a problem when you can modify your initram to have the ZFS loaded on boot from the classic /boot formatted as EXT4.

          "Hardly a problem", but now you need to roll your own kernel packages and distribute them to servers

          "Hardly a problem", but instead of full disk ZFS and all ZFS fs, we're using an ext /boot like its the 90s again.

          "Hardly a problem", just run these 30 simple commands in a console during installation

          All of this is because GPL/CDDL license incompatibilities. CDDL code has a per-file copyleft, and. for other operating systems (eg: OS X, Solaris, FreeBSD, illumos etc), the CDDL is perfectly compatible, but GPL considers this too weak to be allowed to be combined in to a GPL work.

          Dogma.

          1. Norman Nescio Silver badge

            Re: ZFS

            ZFS is very impressive, and does a very good job of preserving data integrity.

            I have a very simple question, though:

            If you have a pool spread across two physical disks, and ZFS detects one of the disks is having problems, what is the recommended way of replacing that disk?

            Many people would like the option of adding another disk to the pool, telling ZFS to move the data off the failing disk, then remove the now empty failing disk from the pool. This seems a reasonable request, especially as it looks like it should be do-able with no downtime. Unfortunately, as far as I know, this isn't possible, and there are no plans in mainstream ZFS development for it to be possible.

            Some work has been done by Delphix on an internal fork of Illumos to achieve this, but it is rather obscure. The original URL was

            http://blog.delphix.com/alex/2015/01/15/openzfs-device-removal/

            now archived at archive.is - http://archive.is/fczkV

            A common newbie mistake with ZFS is to just to have a single (root) pool, which leads to cursing later when you find out pools are not easily shrinkable, and not without downtime.

            I hope this will change soon, if it hasn't already changed.

            1. bombastic bob Silver badge
              Devil

              Re: ZFS

              "If you have a pool spread across two physical disks, and ZFS detects one of the disks is having problems, what is the recommended way of replacing that disk?"

              here's what I'd do:

              a) do a scrub to try and clean-up and recover as much as you can.

              b) Install the new drive, with the old one still in place, and do a 'zpool replace' command (to replace old drive with new). I think this will work in your case.

              NOTE: if you remove the old drive, I don't know what affect this will have on device naming, so you'd probably have to watch out for that. I think ZFS is smart enough to deal with device name changes from swapping SATA ports/cables and primary/secondary arrangements.

              ZFS does something called 'resilver' to copy from old drives to new drives (as part of a RAID or replication or spanning multiple drives). 'man zpool' for more, maybe read up on some of the Solaris resources which go into a bit more depth than the FreeBSD (and probably Linux) docs [but the commands should be all the same for everyone, from what I can tell].

              if this doesn't work, you can build a new pool with a new hard drive, and just copy the files. that works, too. Then after copying, remove old drive(s), rename pool/mount-points as necessary, and you're done.

            2. Tom 38

              Re: ZFS

              Many people would like the option of adding another disk to the pool, telling ZFS to move the data off the failing disk, then remove the now empty failing disk from the pool. This seems a reasonable request, especially as it looks like it should be do-able with no downtime. Unfortunately, as far as I know, this isn't possible, and there are no plans in mainstream ZFS development for it to be possible.

              You want to start with a 5 disk zpool, notice one of the disks is bad, and have ZFS resize the pool to a 4 disk zpool? This is not possible with ZFS, because ZFS has been written for enterprise solutions, where a) you know what capacity you have specified and don't want smaller, and b) you would simply replace the disk. (The feature is called Block Pointer Rewrite, and there was an excellent Sun blog post on how and why to do it, and why they cba, but it looks like Oracle have taken it down..)

              The process for replacing a disk is trivial, plug new disk in, zfs replace <old dev> <new dev>, unplug old disk once done.

              1. Norman Nescio Silver badge

                Re: ZFS

                Many people would like the option of adding another disk to the pool, telling ZFS to move the data off the failing disk, then remove the now empty failing disk from the pool. This seems a reasonable request, especially as it looks like it should be do-able with no downtime. Unfortunately, as far as I know, this isn't possible, and there are no plans in mainstream ZFS development for it to be possible.

                +++

                You want to start with a 5 disk zpool, notice one of the disks is bad, and have ZFS resize the pool to a 4 disk zpool? This is not possible with ZFS, because ZFS has been written for enterprise solutions, where a) you know what capacity you have specified and don't want smaller, and b) you would simply replace the disk. (The feature is called Block Pointer Rewrite, and there was an excellent Sun blog post on how and why to do it, and why they cba, but it looks like Oracle have taken it down..)

                The process for replacing a disk is trivial, plug new disk in, zfs replace <old dev> <new dev>, unplug old disk once done.

                +++

                What I'd like, using your example, is to start with a 5 disk pool, add a disk that has the same or larger capacity as a failing disk, zfs to move the data on the fly from the failing disk to the new disk, then remove the now 'empty' failing disk, leaving me with a 5 disk pool. If you have enough physical disks in the pool so they provide sufficient redundancy, you can, as you say, use 'zfs replace' - however, if you have a one disk pool, you cannot do this without downtime. So while zfs is great for large enterprise use, it is of less use on (say) a single disk laptop or desktop.

                I have not had the time to experiment doing things with setting up file-backed zfs pools on a single disk, as documented here:

                https://superuser.com/questions/1046706/can-zfs-zpool-be-setup-in-an-lvm-formatted-disk

                while definitely not recommended for high-end enterprise use, it could well make zfs more useful for me on small low-end systems. ZFS is great for big-data use-cases, but sometimes just isn't a good fit for smaller systems.

                1. Tom 38

                  Re: ZFS

                  I disagree, it is great for smaller machines. You can periodically attach your external storage and send incremental snapshots there; or to a server if you've got one. Local snapshots give you the time machine like features that sparked this discussion, along with rollback (+forward if you like) on your updates.

                  For the failing drive in a laptop/single drive pool scenario, I use a dock adapter* to plug in the new hard drive, turn the pool into a mirror (zpool attach pool vdev ; (+do whatever your OS needs to boot off it)), wait for it to resilver, power off, switch the drives and then detach the now missing faulty device. Exactly the same process to expand to a larger drive (+one more reboot).

                  * Get USB 3 or eSATA or you will be there for days

          2. bombastic bob Silver badge
            Meh

            Re: Timeshift

            @Tom 38

            regardless of the GPL licensing "dogma" you refer to, ZFS is supported well enough that you're able to use it. That much should be obvious, at least.

            /me has been using FreeBSD with ZFS for a while now, both on a workstation [boot from ZFS] and on a server [UFS+J for OS, ZFS for data and archives]. ZFS warned me about my hard drive going bad, so I was able to pretty much recover everything [built latest OS onto hard drive in a VM while server remained running, copied data files via network, swapped in hard drive, a few tweeks later, up and running!]

            1. Tom 38

              Re: Timeshift

              regardless of the GPL licensing "dogma" you refer to, ZFS is supported well enough that you're able to use it. That much should be obvious, at least.

              This is valid, and I have said as much above! However, this is not about whether ZFS is available and is good on Linux, this is about why smart people have been spending time writing a snapshot system using hardlinks, instead of just using ZFS!

              Because of the (I hope well discussed now) license issue, ZFS is not available to these developers as a solution, and that is a shame.

          3. Allonymous Coward

            Re: Timeshift

            "Hardly a problem", just run these 30 simple commands in a console during installation

            On Ubuntu >=16.04 at least, the command you need is just:

            sudo apt install zfsutils-linux

            We have lots of boxes with ZFS data pools, and it works really well. We have some boxes with a root ZFS pool and that sometimes requires a manual import step at boot. IMO ZFS boot is a little too bleeding-edge; ext4 on mdadm still works more reliably.

            Perhaps without the licensing dogma these sorts of things would get fixed faster, or best practice would be clearer. That'd be nice. As it is though, I've already found ZFS on Linux to be useful, stable, and generally easier to work with than expected.

      4. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. Sandtitz Silver badge
      Stop

      Re: Timeshift

      "If you want to have 'real timeshift', you boot from a Gparted Live CD/USB and save/restore entire partitions. It doesn't take long and it's a proper time machine. (I'm old fashioned.)"

      Year of the Linux desktop will never happen unless those sort of advisories are abolished. I have nothing against imaging, but most people in the world would have trouble doing it. And some would still manage to image the USB backup media to the internal disk because they have no understanding what 'sda' or 'sdb' means.

      Take a look at Windows Shadow Copies or OSX Time Machine. They really are not backups unless stored at dedicated media but many times I, and end users have recovered deleted or uncorrupted files from those without resorting to proper backups. Snapshots take relatively little resources to create (except for disk space), and can (and even should) be scheduled to happen several times a day for multiple revert points. It's rather cumbersome to image you computer even weekly unless you can do it automatically with e.g. PXE boot.

      If this TimeShift works and the end user experience is even half as well done as in Windows/OSX then it should be a very welcome thingy.

  4. simonb_london

    I _used_ to like Mint KDE...but now they've dropped it :(

    1. Jonathan 27

      Kubuntu is pretty similar.

  5. Teiwaz

    Shipping with only Flatpacks by default?

    And they're still proud of no Gnome?

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Converted from KDE

    I was running kubuntu 16.04 and Mint KDE 18.2/ 18.3 all of them had major problems, long freezes and wait time plasma crashes all the time ( I think related to a 60GB SSD for root and a 3TB disk for home and 24GB of memory) . In the end I could not put up with it anymore and changed over to Mint Cinnamon 18.3 and it is faster and a hell lot more stable. I have enabled snaps and had a play, though the whole idea of mounting a files system for every snap app seems a bit of a slow approach to me and not very scalable.

  7. The Central Scrutinizer

    Upgraded to 18.3 and it worked like a charm. Took about 15 minutes I think. A great OS. It just gets the fuck out of the way and lets you get on with whatever you want to do.

    1. ecofeco Silver badge

      Same here. Updated fast and no issues. It took a few weeks for the FireFox update to catch up.

      Running on an old CoreDuo. You would think I have a quad core.

  8. Steve Button Silver badge

    What's all the fuss about?

    I spend most of my day inside a terminal, and occasionally dip out into mail client, chat, or Sublime. I can do this quite happily on Linux, Mac or Windows. There's very little to chose between them. As a contractor, I often don't get a choice anyway, but they all have their little foibles and niceties. I've used all three at home as well over the years, until the Mac blew up. And then my kids needed to use Windows only conferencing software, so had to scrap Mint and switch to Win 10. But really that switch was pretty painless, and it generally just works.

    Is it a religious thing? I don't get it.

    1. Dave Bell

      Re: What's all the fuss about?

      I use the Xfce version, and it's working fine.

      I run some Windows-only software using the PlayOnLinux version of the Wine system. This lets you use multiple Wine versions, and find the best one for the program you want to use. It's an annoyance that so many people will say Wine works, and not mention version numbers. I am using the current Windows version of Scrivener with Wine 2.10, without problems.

      I do use the command line for some things. What I find most comfortable is that I am in control. I hear too often of people getting hassled by the Windows update system. And Linux just keeps working.

    2. phuzz Silver badge

      Re: What's all the fuss about?

      "Is it a religious thing?"

      Well, it seems like a matter of life and death to true believers, and basically impenetrable to outsiders, so yes, it is very similar to religion.

      Mint does seem to have less of the bullshit that some of the more militant OS's (or rather their users) have though.

      1. Teiwaz

        Re: What's all the fuss about?

        Mint does seem to have less of the bullshit that some of the more militant OS's (or rather their users) have though.

        Used to see a lot of trolling of Ubuntu forums by Mint Mate* afficionados, unhappy with the then decision by Ubuntu to drop Gnome 2 and move to Unity instead.

        * Not necessarily Mint users, but that was the flag they flew under...

        The religion thing?

        I'd prefer not to worship at the MS or Apple temples, the hymns are weird, the tipple at the socials tastes funny, the services start and stop more often than American football and they expect waaay too much on the offertory plate, and it attracts all the lowlifes trying everything from a quick buck scams to outright thievery....

    3. bombastic bob Silver badge
      WTF?

      Re: What's all the fuss about?

      " had to scrap Mint and switch to Win 10"

      you COULD have set up dual-boot or run Win-10-nic in a VM...

      windows-only conferencing software. *ugh*. What idiot decided THAT was a 'requirement'?

      It's not just a religious argument, either. It has everything to do with privacy, licensing, and what you're now kept from doing by the Win-10-nic OS [like customizing your computer so it's not "all 2D FLATSO" like Micro-shaft seems to be shoving up our collective rectums]. This is the kind of FREEDOM you get with Mint.

      So if you actually LIKE the 2D FLATSO, you can have it. But I happen to *HATE* it. So I pick a theme with Mate that doesn't do that [on Mint, Ubu, FreeBSD, Debian, or whatever].

      But I _AM_ disappointed at the use of Firefox 57. I refuse to use it because I can't put the "non-FLATSO eye candy UI" extensions on it.

    4. terrythetech
      WTF?

      Re: What's all the fuss about?

      Updates. If nothing else, updates. I have a WIn8 machine that will quite happily reboot to update while I am using it to listen to online radio - WTF!

      On Mint, I get to choose when to do updates and they don't require a reboot (or very rarely). Microsoft seem to think remotely rebooting a PC is a good idea - I don't. In fact a lot of things that Microsoft think are a good idea don't fit well with me, but forced updates/upgrades - MS can f'off as far as I'm concerned.

    5. ecofeco Silver badge

      Re: What's all the fuss about?

      Th fuss is that Linux is by far the faster and more efficient of the three OSes and Mint has become the favorite because it is the least cluttered and needy.

  9. Mage Silver badge

    Fine with me

    No problems at all with upgrade here from 18.2 and very customised theme on Mate (Sidhe-N).

  10. adam payne
    Linux

    Minty freshness with a hint of cinnamon for me.

    Great OS and really fast on my ageing laptop.

    1. ecofeco Silver badge

      It is crazy fast. I'm running it on an old CoreDuo and it acts like a quad core.

  11. Tim99 Silver badge
    Linux

    systemd install?

    That is all.

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