back to article You know what's coming next: FBI is upset it can't get into Texas church gunman's smartphone

FBI agents investigating the murder-suicide of 26 people in a church in Sutherland Springs, Texas, on Sunday, have said they can't yet unlock the shooter's smartphone. In a press conference on Tuesday, special agent Chris Combs said that investigations into the motives and actions of the gunman was ongoing, but that his mobe …

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        1. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge

          Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

          Fucking idiots, quite how anyone can say with a straight face that removing guns from the hands of the public wouldn't help prevent this sort of tragedy is beyond me.

          The counter argument goes that if the bad guys are using guns when the good guys have guns, they will still be using them when the good guys have surrendered theirs. Limiting gun sales won't prevent bad guys having guns. Removing guns doesn't make things better, only worse.

          America is a fucked-up country starting from a fucked-up position while the rest of the civilised world are in the better position of preventing their countries from becoming fucked-up. Americans therefore see things differently to how others do.

          While America believes it is better to have guns than not, believes having guns saves more lives than are taken by guns, it's going to stay how it is. Innocent people dead is simply the acceptable price to pay for having those guns.

          America is beyond the tipping point and it's a long hard road back. It may be impossible because fucked-up America is not prepared to do what is needed to be done.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

            You 2nd ammendment guys love sticking to the principle of it, so I assume you still support the slave trade?

            Article 1 Section 8 of the 1787 Constitution puts Congress in charge of "organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress". It should be noted that the militias were all that the newly founded country had in the way of armed forces. In the south these militias had their roots in slave patrols, while in the north they had formed at the beginning of the Revolutionary War.

            During the ratifying convention in Virginia in 1788, several southern representatives, lead by Patrick Henry from Virginia, took issue with that section. Here's are some excerpts of what Henry had to say:

            Let me here call your attention to that part [Article 1, Section 8 of the proposed Constitution] which gives the Congress power to provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States....

            By this, sir, you see that their control over our last and best defence is unlimited. If they neglect or refuse to discipline or arm our militia, they will be useless: the states can do neither ... this power being exclusively given to Congress. The power of appointing officers over men not disciplined or armed is ridiculous; so that this pretended little remains of power left to the states may, at the pleasure of Congress, be rendered nugatory.

            If the country be invaded, a state may go to war, but cannot suppress insurrections [under this Constitution]. If there should happen an insurrection of slaves, the country cannot be said to be invaded. They cannot, therefore, suppress it without the interposition of Congress.... Congress, and Congress only [under this Constitution], can call forth the militia.

            In this state [Virginia], there are two hundred and thirty-six thousand blacks, and there are many in several other states. But there are few or none in the Northern States.... May Congress not say, that every black man must fight? Did we not see a little of this last war? We were not so hard pushed as to make emancipation general; but acts of Assembly passed that every slave who would go to the army should be free.

            [Abolitionists] will search that paper [the Constitution], and see if they have power of manumission. And have they not, sir? Have they not power to provide for the general defence and welfare? May they not think that these call for the abolition of slavery? May they not pronounce all slaves free, and will they not be warranted by that power? This is no ambiguous implication or logical deduction. The paper speaks to the point: they have the power in clear, unequivocal terms, and will clearly and certainly exercise it.

            In this situation, I see a great deal of the property of the people of Virginia in jeopardy, and their peace and tranquility gone.

            And so Madison drafted the second amendment to satisfy them. It was never about the citizens being able to protect themselves from the government, it was about the states being able to protect their slavery from the federal government. The right has twisted the 2nd amendment's history pretty much the same way many of them try to twist the history of the civil war, claiming it was about "states' rights" and failing to mention that the only "state right" they were interested in was their "right" to keep slaves.

            Source: Bogus (unfortunate name), Carl T.; Professor, Roger Williams University School of Law (Winter 1998). "The Hidden History of the Second Amendment". U.C. Davis Law Review. 31: 309–408. SSRN 1465114. moismyname.

        2. inmypjs Silver badge

          Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

          "wouldn't help prevent this sort of tragedy is beyond me"

          The murderous insane and criminal would be very happy if there were fewer guns in America - less chance of them being shot and if they really couldn't get hold of guns they could just copy the mussie terrorist and drive trucks into people.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

          "how anyone can say with a straight face that removing guns from the hands of the public wouldn't help prevent this sort of tragedy is beyond me."

          The difficulty lies in how does one go about that and you can't with absolute certainty say it will actually be a net gain (1)(2) considering in this very instance he was driven off by another guy with an AR-15? Given the current rise in ramming attacks (3) and that they are equally as effective (4) will there be a call to ban cars and trucks? Sure, it's possible to ban guns and you'll find that about 15% get turned in at which point you might feel good but it doesn't really change anything unless you're ready to go door to door, 4th Amendment be damned, and try to take them by force. That will be a recipe for more gun violence than you may be prepared for if not outright civil war as many police and military will find any allegiance they had to the newly instituted police state rapidly dissolving.

          The system to keep guns from crims already exists and should have worked but it didn't in this case because of an error in transmitting his military conviction to the NICS database, that's it. Nothing is perfect and unfortunately this nutter was able to purchase a gun through the normal sales channel. Guesses as to what would have happened had he not been able to buy a gun at the gun shop are as pointless as counting pixies dancing on the head of a pin, would he have laid in wait and stabbed the targeted in-laws, built a bomb, bought a gun on the black market, rented or stolen a large truck, etc. Maybe he just would have held his breath until everybody did what he felt was right by him but I'm not getting that vibe.

          (1) http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2013/06/201361625721431960.html

          (2)http://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-crime/venezuela-crushes-2000-guns-in-public-plans-registry-of-bullets-idUSKCN10S2I9

          (3) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-ramming_attack

          (4)https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/14/nice-bastille-day-france-attack-promenade-des-anglais-vehicle

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

            I agree, any number of things could have happened if he hadn't been able to buy a gun, hell, if he were sufficiently motivated he could have probably killed someone with the laptop I'm typing this on, it's fairly old and pretty heavy so I reckon it could do some damage with a good swing.

            The problem with your argument is that a gun (with very few exceptions) is an object designed with the primary purpose of killing in mind, my laptop isn't, nor is a car, a bus, truck, train, aeroplane, ship etc.

            I'd be willing to make a small donation to the NRA if the number of Americans killed by ramming attacks in the 365 days of 2017 was larger than the number of Americans killed with a gun this week.

            America, where the difficult problems are caused by somebody else or ignored.

        4. Terrance Brennan

          Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

          It is a sad commentary that the most accurate, intelligent articles on the continuing gun violence in America is on a satirical news site. The Onion runs these articles after each inexplicable gun massacre that will continue to happen almost exclusively here in the US.

          https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1820163660

          https://www.theonion.com/nation-to-wait-for-more-facts-on-texas-shooting-before-1820186609

        5. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

          - Oklahoma City bombing

          - Boston Marathon bombing

          - 9/11

          - 2010 Austin, TX airplane suicide attack.

          - Jerusalem terror attacks involving homemade bombs, cold weapons, backhoes, trucks and other machinery...

          Just a few off the top of my head...

          Yeah, you surely can prevent mass killings/ injuries by lunatics and extremists by banning gun sales. In Neverland, that is.

      1. gkroog

        Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

        His "criminal record...should have prevented those purchases."

        BUT: "the Air Force also acknowledged it inexplicably failed to enter his conviction into a government database that all licensed firearms dealers are required to use to screen prospective gun buyers for their criminal history.

        Federal law prohibits anyone from selling a gun to someone who has been convicted of a crime involving domestic violence against a spouse or child."

        (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-texas-shooting/texas-church-gunman-escaped-mental-facility-in-2012-while-facing-court-martial-idUSKBN1D715Q)

        SO, he SHOULDN'T have been able to buy a gun, but the system FAILED the people...

        Your point remains: what this has to do with his cell phone, surely no one will explain to us.

        1. Terrance Brennan

          Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

          No, the law does not prevent ANYONE from selling a gun to someone convicted of a crime involving domestic violence against a spouse or child. It only bars licensed gun dealers; the NRA, our de facto legislature, keeps preventing mandatory background checks for "private" sales between individuals or at gun shows so he could have just gone to one of the many gun shows in the country to buy whatever he wanted if a licensed dealer refused to sell to him.

          1. Eddy Ito

            Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

            No, the law does not prevent ANYONE from selling a gun to someone convicted of a crime involving domestic violence against a spouse or child. It only bars licensed gun dealers

            Really, you should at least try to educate yourself to a minimal level before you dive in and wind up showing off your ignorance. Let me help, see 18 USC § 922(d)(9) which states: (emphasis mine)

            (d)It shall be unlawful for ANY PERSON to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person-

            (9) has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.

            But why let facts get in the way of your bovine scatological diatribe? Not that any of that matters in this particular instance because the nut bar who shot up the church purchased the rifle at a licensed gun dealer because the Air Force failed to transmit the arrest data to the NICS database.

            Based on the vast majority of gun rampage nutters no white men should be allowed to own guns from now on.

            Again a simple google search could have helped you out. White and Hispanic folk are actually slightly under represented as mass shooters by population. Looks like you're 0 for 2. Really, google is your friend here. You might not look like an uninformed arse if you just look before spouting lies.

    1. inmypjs Silver badge

      Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

      "our efforts to try to find justice here"

      Seems they think he left justice in his phone.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

      @ Sureo

      Right. He was clearly a disturbed individual - felt rejected, dejected, depressed and anti-social etc. - he hurt animals etc.

      There's nothing on the phone that will help things now.

      @ inmypjs & another anonymous

      Yup, it would be a shameless use of tragedy for a power grab.

      1. Unicornpiss
        Meh

        Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

        "Right. He was clearly a disturbed individual - felt rejected, dejected, depressed and anti-social etc. - he hurt animals etc."

        With the exception of hurting animals, as most of us would never do, you'd think IT workers are being profiled here..

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

      oh yes, ABSOLUTELY! Then, they would be able to prevent all crimes-to-be-commited, because.

      ...

      What?! After all, if A = B, then B = ANYTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING! :/

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

        "What?! After all, if A = B, then B = ANYTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING! :/"

        Exactly. Let's all give up and go for a drink.

        Mines a bbnbnb daquiri, please.

        1. davidp231

          Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

          Mines a bbnbnb daquiri, please.

          Shouldn't that be a 'bbnbnb dbquiri?

    4. G.Y.

      resurrect Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

      Maybe they can then resurrect some of the dead ...

    5. Eddy Ito
      Facepalm

      Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

      Latest is that it was indeed an iPhone and they could have used his finger to unlock the phone within 48 hours but after that they need the passcode. Needless to say, they sat on their hands trying desperately to find their arse for well over 48 hours and the easy option faded away. Expect a request for 48,000 hours before the fingerprint doesn't work anymore and to not put in a delay until after 20 or more failed fingers.

    6. pks2973steel

      Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

      Yes it wouldn't change things but maybe it could help from letting it happen again.

  1. Field Commander A9

    It sure ain't the Texas we knew any more.

    Someone could just mow down ppl and comit suicide before getting killed?

  2. Ken Mitchell

    Why Do They Want That?

    In the case of the San Bernardino murderer, he had destroyed his personal iPhone, but the Feds wated access to his work iPhone, to see if there was any record of contacts with other terrorists. Since that phone was owned by the county, that should have been easy - except the county hadn't installed the Apple software that would have allowed them to manage all of their phones. And then the Feds changed the shooter's iCloud password, so that they couldn't even connect to the phone that way. When they finally did get in, there was nothing useful there. Big surprise, right?

    In this case, there's no reason to assume that there is anything useful on his phone. There wasn't anybody else involved. And the phone wasn't owned by any government agency to give them any pretense of right.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Why Do They Want That?

      But we already know that the shooter was a Muslim Bernie Sanders supporter so who knows what links to an international conspiracy of Muslim Libertarian Vaccinating Climate Changers could be revealed

    2. big_D Silver badge
      Paris Hilton

      Re: Why Do They Want That?

      They also have a dead shooter and his smartphone... Did nobody think of taking the phone down to the morgue and pushing the sensor against his fingers?

      1. lglethal Silver badge
        Trollface

        Re: Why Do They Want That?

        "They also have a dead shooter and his smartphone... Did nobody think of taking the phone down to the morgue and pushing the sensor against his fingers?"

        I assume the failure here is that they cant get the gun out of his hands. Isnt that what gun crazy Yanks always say "They'll get my gun when they pry it from my cold dead fingers..."

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The reports so far with some editorial....

    Some of the details we are hearing so far are that he was discharged from the Air Force due to bad behavior resulting from domestic violence (i.e. beating ex-wife and infant child), Air Force didn't update National Instant Check database for firearm sales and shooter legally purchased weapons as a result. The shoot also had run-ins with the law in Colorado prior to moving to Texas. The AR-15 continually being characterized as an "assault rifle" is somewhat problematic since no one seems to know what that actually means. Regardless, over 400 rounds were discharged from the shooter before resistance was offered. Resistance came in the form of a resident with a "long gun" who apparently managed to shoot the shooter twice (leg and torso) prior to his fleeing the scene with the resident in pursuit. The shooter crashed his vehicle and apparently committed suicide with a single gunshot to the head (presumably). It is a tragedy and there will be many that rush to encourage more laws and many that rush to defend current laws and many more that will rush to defend their point of view. Short of making all firearms magically disappear and constitutionally dismantling the 2nd amendment, the best we can hope for is a "war on guns" similar to our "war on drugs". That war effort has gone swimmingly so it's difficult to imagine that we will see better results with a war on guns. In any event, it's still another needless tragedy and really points to a breakdown in the fabric of our society that seems to indicate that we have elements that think that extreme violence is acceptable. We can make the mental health argument but we cherish all of our rights that we love to stand on each and every one to support our favorite one(s). Pity us.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: The reports so far with some editorial....

      Wasn't the vicar armed?

      At least back in Belfast you could have been sure a couple of altar boys would be packing Armalites

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The reports so far with some editorial....

        At least back in Belfast you could have been sure a couple of altar boys would be packing Armalites

        Yeah, but they'd probably have shot the priest by mistake, and then each other by accident.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The reports so far with some editorial....

        Well, I'm guessing you're meaning the church pastor. Apparently no one else at the church was armed which is not unusual. Contrary to popular belief, people don't generally walk around armed in this country. In cases that don't make the national or international news where there is an armed individual to intervene early in such an altercation, the outcome has been much happier hence why you don't hear about it much.

      3. Teiwaz

        Re: The reports so far with some editorial....

        At least back in Belfast you could have been sure a couple of altar boys would be packing Armalites

        Those were for self defence.

    2. Lysenko

      Re: The reports so far with some editorial....

      The AR-15 continually being characterized as an "assault rifle" is somewhat problematic since no one seems to know what that actually means

      It's pretty obvious what it means: any weapon conceptually descended from the Sturmgewehr 44, which essentially means any rifle with a replaceable magazine and a semi-automatic rather than bolt or lever action. Neither feature is required (or even useful) when hunting deer - they're features that only have utility for killing people.

      1. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Devil

        Re: The reports so far with some editorial....

        "any rifle with a replaceable magazine and a semi-automatic rather than bolt or lever action. Neither feature is required (or even useful) when hunting deer - they're features that only have utility for killing people."

        "assault rifles" are cool looking. I'm sure some dweeb out there would consider my choice of vehicles not having any 'utility'. I just wanted a Mustang convertible. It looks great and is fun to drive. So I got one. It goes really freaking fast when I want it to [I once passed some asshat going uphill at ~100MPH because he kept speeding up on straightaways on a windy road and went 15mph around every freaking corner, and it was "my chance" and I took it, because I could]. And I leave the top down 99% of the time, because I like it that way. I'm sure I'll be criticized for owning it, too. And driving it. And enjoying it. And driving fast in it.

        Now, substitute "AR-15" for "mustang convertible" and I say, if that's what someone wants to buy, LET HIM. It becomes a matter of personal choice, and it is NOBODY'S BUSINESS, what you or I or anyone else wants to own, right?

        /me points out that in some states in the USA, you can own AUTOMATIC WEAPONS. Check out the "F.P.S. Russia" videos. All you have to do is pass a background check and pay a tax.

        And you're correct. The AR-15 is a military style weapon primarily designed for killing people. It makes it very effective for the purpose for which it was used: stopping a mass murderer from killing anyone else.

        1. Lysenko

          Re: The reports so far with some editorial....

          if that's what someone wants to buy, LET HIM. It becomes a matter of personal choice, and it is NOBODY'S BUSINESS, what you or I or anyone else wants to own, right?

          An argument that can equally well be made for anti-personnel land mines (great burglar deterrent!), C4 or Semtex (tree stump be gone!), Starstreak MANPADS (no more drones over my house!) and Sarin gas (in case the burglar gets past the land mines).

          If you choose to own a weapon primarily designed to kill people the you are demonstrating premeditated intent to .... errr .... kill people. Any other conclusion is equivalent to assuming you have no intention of driving your Mustang you just have have a fetish for waxing paintwork.

          1. Timmy B

            Re: The reports so far with some editorial....

            "If you choose to own a weapon primarily designed to kill people the you are demonstrating premeditated intent to .... errr .... kill people."

            no no no no no

            If you chose to own a weapon designed to kill people you may be demonstrating the ability, as a last resort in defence of person or property, to stop people doing you harm. I own a computer and have the skills and ability to do harm with it - does that mean I have a pre-meditated intent to do so? I own knives and tools that make me an proficient butcher - does that mean I intend to butcher people? I own firearms - does that mean I intend to shoot people?

            1. Lysenko

              Re: The reports so far with some editorial....

              no no no no no

              If you chose to own a weapon designed to kill people you may be demonstrating the ability, as a last resort in defence of person or property, to stop people doing you harm

              So that would be "yes" then. I didn't say you were demonstrating intent to murder, just to kill. You are contemplating the possibility of legally justifiable homicide pursuant to defence of life or property. That's still premeditated intent to kill. You're just confining to circumstances that will avoid prosecution.

              The rest of your point misses the point in exactly the same way as car and baseball bat arguments do. The devices you cite are not primarily designed to facilitate more efficient homicide. You can kill someone fairly easily with your bare hands, but it would be quite tricky to pull off mass murder that way.

              1. Timmy B

                Re: The reports so far with some editorial....

                @Lysenko

                "premeditated" - you keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

                I have not decided (though I live in the UK where firearms for defence are not allowed so this is a little hypothetical) before hand that I will kill people with my firearms. I have decided that if I had to I would. The same as if I had to mow someone down with my car to save other people I would. That does not mean I have premeditated intent to kill. My intent is to never have to harm another human being as long as I live. I would if I had to but I don't want to.

                1. Lysenko

                  Re: The reports so far with some editorial....

                  @Timmy B

                  "premeditated" - you keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

                  I know exactly what "premeditated" means - "contemplated beforehand" (from Latin: etymology is easily looked up online). Your argument is really about mens rea ("guilty mind" - or not) which essentially boils down to "intent".

                  Contemplating the act of shooting someone and then proceeding to do so with fatal results is not necessarily a crime, it depends on the circumstances and the intent of the person holding the gun. In the case of a volatile confrontation with a similarly armed assailant you can probably shoot him with impunity, but if he is simply stealing your car then pulling the trigger sends you down for life.

                  1. This post has been deleted by its author

                2. Kiwi
                  Boffin

                  Re: The reports so far with some editorial....

                  I have not decided (though I live in the UK where firearms for defence are not allowed so this is a little hypothetical) before hand that I will kill people with my firearms. I have decided that if I had to I would.

                  So you've opted to go for the kill option. You have decided to kill.

                  Me? I've decided to take what action stops the threat with whatever tools I have to hand. A rugby tackle will be as effective as many other options, though if the target isn't stunned I may be the next victim. If the target is killed or seriously injured then it is likely I will spend at least a few nights in jail on a manslaughter charge. With your mindset, even if they only got a bruise I could be facing a "wounding with intent to kill" charge - but that's NOT why I have decided I will stop them being a threat with minimal force necessary.

                  It could be I club them across the back of the neck/shoulders with a large rock, nearby child, or something else solid enough to stun them and hopefully not kill them or hurt them seriously. Baseball bat or golf club to the legs can take someone down quite effectively. And a hockey stick between a mans legs from behind with a quick upwards and backwards jerk will mean he ain't thinking about his intended victims for a while, plenty of time for them to get away and for you to restrain the perp. I keep cable ties in the car in case bits want to leave it (not that it has happened or is likely to) or need to fix cabling somewhere with a quick-n-dirty method. They'll make sure they're not going anywhere without a police escort.

                  If I was to kill someone during defence, it would be by accident. I tackle them and their head hits the kerb in a bad way, I move on them and in a panic they cut themselves and sever an artery, so on and so forth. I focus not on "how do I kill someone while defending another" (and, it seems for some, not on "and how can I find a situation where I have an excuse to justify this") but "how can I quickly stop someone so they're no longer a threat without permanently harming them?", After all, the guy trying to stop his wife and her sister taking his kid from him might actually turn out to be a guy trying to stop his kid from being kidnapped by two strange women; the guy on a rampage in a local restaurant may just have learned that his son was raped by a teacher - the same teacher the guy had raised concerns about 6 months ago.

                  People break, have an episode, maybe hurt someone, then heal. Do you want to add to the hurt by adding more victims, or do you want to stop the hurt with the minimum death&maiming possible?

                  Value life, protect life - you can still be effective at stopping violence without killing. But first you have to decide that you will not kill.

                  Oh, that sniper on the rooftop of the building across the road where he's got his gun trained on a number of people and your only option is to shoot him? Remember the gun safety law of "identify your target" - that also means making sure he is a sniper and is intent on evil purposes.

                  The same as if I had to mow someone down with my car to save other people I would

                  Most likely you will hit your target and, having totally misjudged your speed, braking distance, and the damage a car does to flesh, continue on and also kill the people you were trying to protect. Almost as likely, your target will dodge out of the way and in that moment of confusion, your foot still on the gas, you'll hit and kill more people than the perp was interested in harming.

            2. Paul Smith

              Re: The reports so far with some editorial....

              "I own a computer and have the skills and ability to do harm with it - does that mean I have a pre-meditated intent to do so?"

              No, because a computer is not primarily designed to do harm, and has many practical uses other than doing harm. An assault rifle on the other hand, does not.

              You own firearms, that means it is safe to assume you intend to shoot them. If you own a firearm whose only purpose is to shoot people, then yes, it is safe to assume you intend to shoot people.

              1. Eddy Ito

                Re: The reports so far with some editorial....

                If you own a firearm whose only purpose is to shoot people, then yes, it is safe to assume you intend to shoot people.

                Except there is no such firearm. Simply because you cannot conceive of other purposes does not mean those purposes don't exist. Most firearms in the US, regardless of type, are used in sport or training far more often than they are used to shoot people.

                1. Kiwi

                  Re: The reports so far with some editorial....

                  Most firearms in the US, regardless of type, are used in sport or training far more often than they are used to shoot people.

                  Are the training targets roughly man-shaped, with extra points for centre of head and centre of chest? Or are they simple concentric circles. If the former, then the training is still for killing people.

                  1. Eddy Ito

                    Re: The reports so far with some editorial....

                    Are the training targets roughly man-shaped...

                    That would depend on the training, wouldn't it? I reserve man shaped targets for close range handgun work but for 5.56/.223 I tend to use targets the size and shape of a groundhog, for .308 I use both deer and hog shaped targets. I use both groundhog and deer/pig for my Winchester 100 carbine in .243. Lastly the .38-55 mostly sees a 3'x5' steel gong at about 800 yards but I only paint a 3'x3' square on it and only count the ones in the square but I find the 1' bands left and right provide auditory feedback to help me dope the wind a bit as even a slight cross breeze tends to shift point of impact considerably at that distance.

                    I assume the police largely use people type targets and some departments seem to substitute actual black or brown people since let's face it, blue lives matter more.

              2. MachDiamond Silver badge

                Re: The reports so far with some editorial....

                If somebody breaks into my home, I intend to shoot them. The police are, at best, at least 10-15 minutes away if they aren't already on another call.

                In regular practice, the only things in danger of being shot by me are cans, paper and over-ripe fruit.

            3. Kiwi
              Pirate

              Re: The reports so far with some editorial....

              If you chose to own a weapon designed to kill people you may be demonstrating the ability, as a last resort in defence of person or property, to stop people doing you harm.

              I've had many threats against me (look over my posting history if you wish more detail), and yes I've wondered about killing some of those especially at the worst times, or during some PTSD-type episodes after.

              I took up Tae Kwon Do.

              But then, in our nation you're not that likely to be a victim of a "ranged weapon". We don't wear skirts and hide behind large arsenals of weapons (unlike some girly nations where the menfolk have suspiciously tiny hands), we do things up front and personal here. Which is probably why our murder rates are quite low. You're almost more likely to be an innocent bystander shot by a cop than to be shot by a criminal. Even our cops aren't routinely armed with guns, though they do have stab-proof vests.

              So come on yanks, man up - get rid of your guns and use the most real weapons of all - your brains and your fists! (and feet, elbows, knees (if you're having fun)...)

              (yes I have fought to defend myself and others, and no I did not consider it my right to kill the opponent, I considered "right" to be "do as little harm as possible to end the threat")

              --> Swords coz a bit more up-front and personal than a gun.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: The reports so far with some editorial....

            If you choose to own a weapon primarily designed to kill people the you are demonstrating premeditated intent to .... errr .... kill people.

            This. Automatic weapons aren't used for "hunting" so they can't use that pathetic excuse. What's left? "Home defense"? Hmm...yeah...a little overkill, don't you think? Why not put a Claymore mine under your doormat while you're at it?

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: The reports so far with some editorial....

              "Automatic weapons aren't used for "hunting" so they can't use that pathetic excuse."

              Interesting non-sequitur as automatic weapons were not used at the church in Texas and it doesn't appear anyone is suggesting using them for hunting. Perhaps you're thinking of the 2015 attack in Paris. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34814203

          3. RTUSER

            Re: The reports so far with some editorial....

            The difference in all of the parallel examples to owning a firearm is that the aren't constitutionally protected. This situation is relatively easy to address; propose and pass a constitutional amendment repealing/modifying the second amendment.

            1. WolfFan Silver badge

              Re: The reports so far with some editorial....

              The difference in all of the parallel examples to owning a firearm is that the aren't constitutionally protected. This situation is relatively easy to address; propose and pass a constitutional amendment repealing/modifying the second amendment.

              Good luck with that. You'd need a two-thirds majority in Congress (two thirds of both the House and Senate) to pass an amendment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Five_of_the_United_States_Constitution As about 40-45% of the population owns at least one firearm, unless you can convince some of them to give up their guns the votes ain't there. If two-thirds of Congresscritters voted to mess with the 2nd, some of them would not be re-elected. And their successors would withdraw approval. The current Congresscritters know this. They would vote to mess with the 2nd only if:

              1 they're retiring anyway

              2 the district/state/whatever they represent has a big enough majority who want guns gone for them to be re-elected

              3 they want to make a gesture and commit political suicide

              4 some combo of the above

              Please note that recent (and even not-so-recent) gun legislation has not filled me with confidence; there was the 'assault weapons ban' which didn't ban any 'assault weapons'. (It banned civilian sales of weapons with certain specific features, such as a bayonet lug, or a magazine which could hold more than 10 rounds. Gun manufacturers removed the features in question, including the magazines... and sold kits, separately, which could add 'em back on. In particular the restriction on the magazine sizes was pathetic, as magazines holding 20, 25, 30, 35, 50, and more rounds already existed for those weapons, and it was a trivial exercise to make more.) Someone who practices can achieve quite high cyclic rates even with bolt-action rifles; when the Germans ran into the Foot Guards at Mons in 1914, they thought they'd run into mass machine guns. They hadn't. They'd just walked into range of riflemen with bolt-action rifles who could deliver 20-30 aimed rounds per minute, despite having to reload as SMLEs only held 10 rounds and, worse, used 5-round charger clips. You'd have to get rid of bolt-action rifles, and possibly lever-action as well, not just semi-autos. Attempting to do this would not be easy, politically. Recall that large numbers of those who vote Democratic would oppose such legislation. There has been, for example, lots of noise about the ease of getting cheap handguns, often referred to as 'Saturday Night Specials'. Many either don't know or don't recall that the original name was 'Niggertown Saturday Night Specials', as cheap firearms were often the only ones that blacks in deep south segregation or in northern ghettos could afford. (Things have changed...) A lot of American gun legislation was aimed at keeping guns out of the hands of dark folk. Enough dark folk remember to make it quite difficult for the Dems to push too hard... and a lot of rural white boys who vote Republican like guns, too, so the Reps ain't gonna push, either. And, besides, anyone who does will be buried under pro-gun money at primary time. Political suicide, plain and simple.

          4. Muscleguy

            Re: The reports so far with some editorial....

            Re removing tree stumps with semtex. There's a legendary series of ads for Toyota Utes in New Zealand. In one a rope is attached to the vehicle and the stump, it drives off and the stump flies out of the ground and demolishes the outside dunny (long drop lavatory). This series of ads made 'bugger' not a swearword in NZ.

            Here's a compendium: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xmlhtf7xenQ

            There is a risk that if you try semtex on your stump it will sail off and demolish something.

            Mind you the over the road neighbour who helped me get the fallen mountain gum out of our front garden used that method to get the stump out, except he went very slowly up our drive. Worked like a charm. The Virgin engineer who came and repaired our cable feed the fallen tree's roots broke was presented with a clear space of work (dragging this back to tech stuff).

        2. Timmy B

          Re: The reports so far with some editorial....

          @bob

          Shit. The world must be coming to an end. A post of yours I agree with. But then I am a rare beast being an active UK hunter and gun owner. I don't personally own one but I do know other UK hunters, particularly in pest control, that use semi-automatic 22 rimfire. This is when a semi is useful in hunting. When there is likely several targets to be had in quick succession.

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