back to article Drone smacks commercial passenger plane in Canada

Canada's transport minster has told drone operators to stay away from airports after a remotely piloted craft bonked a passenger plane during its final approach to Jean Lesage International Airport in Québec City. Minister Marc Garneau hasn't revealed the model of the drone, but we do know that it hit a plane operated by …

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            1. Alan Brown Silver badge

              Re: How is it different

              "One particular test completely destroyed the engine to a far greater extent than the testers had ever anticipated. Then they learned to defrost the chickens before shooting them into the engines."

              IIRC the test was intended to be of the resistance of high speed train windscreens to birdstrikes.

              What they actually ended up testing was their resistance to concrete blocks being pushed off overbridges.

              (This is a valid concern for trains. USA locomotive cabins have had specially strengthened front windows fitted since the 1970s in response to a large number of concrete block incidents and armoured side windows due to gunfire.)

          1. Haku

            Re: How is it different

            "Act of terrorism?

            Possibly."

            Have you heard of Occam's razor?

          2. PNGuinn
            Joke

            Re: How is it different

            "They could run the same test with drones, but they don't. Obviously, drones shouldn't be anywhere within a mile of an airport in the first place."

            Shirly, the best way to film a drone being flown into a jet engine would be a drone. Or another drone.

            Y'know, there's always some petty bureaucrat somewhere trying to spoil someone else's fun.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: How is it different

          This is dreadfully embarrassing. As a Canadian, we expect so much from our geese, but they keep getting dumbed-down when they migrate South during the winter.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: How is it different

          I'm all for legislating for the geese to be in violation of traffic regulation in proximity of airports! And you can DNA their shit and catch them evildoers when they shit again!

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: How is it different

          And I suppose geese do practice common sense and do follow some basic geese safety rules ?

          No, they certainly don't. And geese are a lot more dangerous than silly plastic & metal toys.

          Canada geese have been reported at altitudes of 9km, much higher than a consumer drone will fly, so a danger to aircraft in all stages of flight, not just takeoff and landing.

          And, as noted, geese ten to be plural.

        4. HieronymusBloggs

          Re: How is it different

          "So would you prefer be hit by a 1 kg drone or 5 kg goose ?"

          As has been pointed out, geese are made of softer materials than the average drone. Would you rather be hit by a 1kg pillow or a 15g bullet?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: How is it different

            If the 15g bullet was travelling at the speed of the average thrown pillow, I'm not sure it would do too much damage, unless it hit you in the eye, or the knee... and let's not go there..

        5. Loud Speaker

          Re: How is it different

          So would you prefer be hit by a 1 kg drone or 5 kg goose?

          Can I assume the goose would be cooked?

      1. maret77

        Re: How is it different

        The thing is, we don't know if it was "practice" for something more sinister. Maybe the fellow wasn't so stupid after all.

        What's stupid is that our regulators have set out a cute little fine of $25,000 and not bothered to mandate certain safety features that prevent these potentially deadly drones from hitting a planeload of people.

      2. Alan Brown Silver badge

        Re: How is it different

        "Geese aren't made of hard plastic, metal and or carbon fiber and usually don't carry LiPo's."

        Geese are dense, large and make a hell of a mess. As do ducks - which I know from personal experience at 350 feet or so AGL.

        That thing on the front of an aeroplane is NOT a propellor, it's a cooling fan for the pilot. if you don't believe that, watch how much he sweats when it stops.

        1. Stoneshop

          Re: How is it different

          Geese are dense,

          They do fairly well as guard animals, so they're not that stupid anyway. A little smarter and they would know to stay away from airfields and their associated flight paths.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Geese are dense,

          The ones capable of flight aren't, compared to non-flying animals.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: How is it different

          Geese are dense

          Given some of the comments here, I get the impression that they share that with some drone operators.. It made me recall that wonderful insult: "he's so dense, light bends around him".

      3. PNGuinn
        WTF?

        Geese aren't made of hard plastic

        You'll tell me sharks don't have frikkin lasers next.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: How is it different

      Simple, If you hit a goose or gander, especially if they're flying in a group, you're well & truely flocked.

      *Drum sting*

      I'll get my coat, it's the one with the pockets full of down.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: How is it different

      The drone was goose operated.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        At the other AC, re: the drone was goose operated.

        I'm glad you didn't get your feathers ruffled. Your comment quacked me up.

      2. Teiwaz

        Re: How is it different

        Benefit of the doubt...

        Maybe someone 'goosed' the pilot.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Angel

        Re: The drone was goose operated.

        If only I could upvote that a billion times.

        Thank you, you made a very sick man laugh.

        (Sick in both meanings of the word)

    3. the Jim bloke
      WTF?

      Re: How is it different

      1. There is no learning incentive to other geese from acting against the offending goose.

      2. There is no financial incentive to the regulatory authorities / legal industry for acting against wildlife.

      Against drone operators, there is both the potential of a positive outcome, and a financial reward,..

      How is this not obvious ?

      1. dogcatcher

        Re: How is it different

        1. There is no learning incentive to other geese from acting against the offending goose.

        Apart from Darwinism. When all geese that like flying through engines have eliminated themselves then the problem will go away.

        1. MadPsy

          Re: How is it different

          That's the common misunderstanding of how 'darwinism', or rather natural selection, works. For what you said to be true there would need to be something which is compelling the geese to fly in front of aircraft. Instead, it's unfortunate timing, which natural selection does not 'solve'.

      2. Stoneshop
        Pint

        Re: How is it different

        2. There is no financial incentive to the regulatory authorities / legal industry for acting against wildlife.

        One can imagine there being a culinary incentive, though.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: How is it different

      How is it different

      from striking a goose. Or rather geese, which unlike drones tend to fly in flocks.?

      Easy. Goose presence is misadventure and hard to control. Drone presence is somewhere between boneheaded stupidity and malicious intent and NEVER an accident because it requires a human operator not to follow clearly laid out guidelines and rules that are there for a very practical reason. Why the f*ck do we have to go through this every flaming time a near miss happens? Do you really need to see bodies on the ground and families ripped apart before you get this?

      The idea of risk management is to avoid risks as much as is practical, not run one risk because another one happens to be present. You're telling me you won't slow down your car near a school because kids don't show up much on motorways either.

      1. DainB Bronze badge

        Re: How is it different

        "The idea of risk management is to avoid risks as much as is practical not run one risk because another one happens to be present. You're telling me you won't slow down your car near a school because kids don't show up much on motorways either."

        Say that you were told that you have 80% chance of dying in a desert from dehydration but only 20 percent from drowning. And the good news is that you're in the desert and you won't be drowning. Feeling better ?

        All I'm telling you is that no matter how much you're going to twist your panties something that we have absolutely no control over - birds - present significantly higher risks and eliminating smaller risk while doing absolutely nothing about higher makes absolutely no difference to safety.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: How is it different

          That's whataboutism and you know it.

          If you don't know it, then you're even worse.

          1. The Indomitable Gall
            Joke

            Re: How is it different

            @AC:

            " That's whataboutism and you know it. "

            Ah, but what about you getting the word "whatabouttery" wrong...?

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: How is it different

          All I'm telling you is that no matter how much you're going to twist your panties something that we have absolutely no control over - birds - present significantly higher risks and eliminating smaller risk while doing absolutely nothing about higher makes absolutely no difference to safety.

          Ah, so because there is already a risk that we can't do anything about, it is perfectly OK to add more risks? Do you really, really don't see the problem here? In that case, I hope you never get a driving license.

          1. DainB Bronze badge

            Re: How is it different

            "Ah, so because there is already a risk that we can't do anything about, it is perfectly OK to add more risks?"

            No, if you don't worry about bird strikes (which by the way is a routine daily occurrence at every major airport) then you should not worry about significantly less likely and less damaging drone strike. That simple.

            1. Paul 195

              Re: How is it different

              How long do you think "drone strikes aircraft" will remain a rare occurrence if lots of people decide to ignore the rules and fly their drones near airports? It's a rare occurrence compared to bird strikes because there are rules. If we could get birds to obey rules too, we'd do that as well.

            2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

              Re: How is it different

              "No, if you don't worry about bird strikes (which by the way is a routine daily and unavoidable occurrence at every major airport) then you should not worry about significantly less likely and avoidable and less damaging drone strike. That simple."

              Well, somebody's simple.

        3. Nolveys

          Re: How is it different

          eliminating smaller risk while doing absolutely nothing about higher makes absolutely no difference to safety.

          "Daddy, should you be driving? You've had a lot to drink."

          "Do...donworry, cardiovascular disease kills mahr peopl then car accada..accadents."

          THUNK-THUNK

          "Hab a goo day a school hu...hungey."

        4. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: How is it different

          Surely the highest risk is still the human factor. Be that human error from flight crew, ATC, maintenance crews etc. Probably just safer all round if we stop putting people inside tin cans and propelling them through the air.

          On a more serious note, clearly the 'drone' operator in this case was being stupid flying too high and too close to an airport. The positive side is that it's proven a quadcopter/drone strike on an aircraft won't automatically result in the plane coming down in flames with mass causalities as the media would have you believe. This was a small aircraft too so probably more vulnerable than a large airliner.

          I do think everyone flying a model aircraft should have 3rd party insurance (it's cheap, why wouldn't you) and fly safely within the existing regulations. That said the authorities should work on enforcing existing regulations, particularity around airports, and catching idiots like this rather than introducing additional regulation which they still won't be able to enforce.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: How is it different

        I guess we need hawks trained to attack drone operators, just like they are used to keep other birds away.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: How is it different

          I guess we need hawks trained to attack drone operators, just like they are used to keep other birds away.

          Now THAT would be a solution. Hawks trained to work out who operates a drone and taking them out instead of the drone itself. I like your thinking.

          I'm not quite sure how they'd take them out (hawk mounted laser, maybe, on account of sharks having some trouble with the whole flying concept, or just carry a suitably large brick, or maybe use swallows and coconuts), but the concept itself is excellent.

          :)

          (sorry, but that was just too tempting :p )

          1. Muscleguy

            Re: How is it different

            I was dive-bombed by black backed gulls as a child in New Zealand. They were nesting on the waste waterfront ground I was crossing on my bike to go fishing at the wharves. That was bad, sharp taloned raptor? no thanks.

            If I was being dive-bombed by a hawk I would turn and run or duck and cover as appropriate.

            BTW in NZ we have Australasian magpies, large corvids and they get angsty when they are nesting and are not above striking humans and drawing scalp blood. So the risk there is non zero.

            Further BTW gulls nest on the ground in NZ since no native mammalian predators.

            1. Triggerfish

              Re: How is it different @ Muscleguy

              I'm thinking less Hawk, more Harpy Eagle. Pretty sure one of those dive bombing a drone operator will put them off suitably.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Harpy Eagle, special training?

                Perhaps train the birds to attack anyone standing on the ground inside the proscribed area who is holding an R/C transmitter?

                Anon because...

            2. Stoneshop
              Devil

              Re: How is it different

              That was bad, sharp taloned raptor? no thanks.

              Two years ago, an Eurasian Eagle-owl (Bubo Bubo) had gotten rather territorial concerning a cyclepath. Over fifty attacks have been reported, with several people wounded.

              People preferred to make detours. Those birds have a wingspan same as the height of an average person.

          2. Stoneshop
            Devil

            Re: How is it different

            or just carry a suitably large brick,

            I was thinking, two bricks to prevent further procreation, but then realised that if the drone operator was knocked out, most birds of prey are sufficiently equipped to deal with that anyway, they'd just need some additional training.

            1. graeme leggett Silver badge
              Coat

              Re: How is it different

              " ...two bricks to prevent further procreation...."

              "But won't it hurt?"

              "Only if you get your thumbs in the way."

              Mine's the one with a very old joke book in the pocket

          3. Nifty Silver badge

            Re: How is it different

            Where's everyone been?

            http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-35750816/eagles-trained-to-take-down-drones

            or if you prefer hawk over eagle:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhDG_WBIQgc

          4. PNGuinn
            Coat

            Re: How is it different

            "I'm not quite sure how they'd take them out (hawk mounted laser, maybe, on account of sharks having some trouble with the whole flying concept, or just carry a suitably large brick, or maybe use swallows and coconuts), but the concept itself is excellent."

            To ignore for a moment the question of what would happen if the hawk was to miss aim the brick, what would be the effect on the average modern jet engine of ingesting a large hawk aimed shark? Could the laser be programmed to weld any dislocated blades back on on the way through?

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: How is it different

              To ignore for a moment the question of what would happen if the hawk was to miss aim the brick, what would be the effect on the average modern jet engine of ingesting a large hawk aimed shark? Could the laser be programmed to weld any dislocated blades back on on the way through?

              Given the tolerances involved I think you'd be better off with a sardine mounted laser - there's not exactly a lot of space between those blades. One of the problems with that idea is that a sardine attracts geese that may want to eat it, thus turning a potential problem into a certainty :).

              You then also still have to address the issue that sardines, like sharks, are not known for their ability to fly great distances. Their compatibility with air travel stems more from the fact that you can stick a lot of them in a small tin, à la budget airlines.

              :)

      3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: How is it different

        "Why the f*ck do we have to go through this every flaming time a near miss happens?"

        Because some commentards are drone operators who feel threatened? If so they should be condemning stupidity along with the rest.

    5. Arctic fox
      Facepalm

      Re: How is it different

      The difference is that geese are not sentient and that drone pilot was - errr, actually considering what that irresponsible plank did his sentience is in fact in question.

    6. This post has been deleted by its author

      1. Alan Brown Silver badge

        Re: How is it different

        "if a pilot sees them, he can avoid them."

        The odds of a pilot seeing birds on a collision course are slim to negligable. As I understand it Sully and his copilot caught a glimpse of the flock just as it went under their nose.

        I went head-on into a duck squadron and only saw the one which just avoided being propellor mincemeat for about a tenth of a second as it flared and went above me. I never saw the one that (slightly) dented the wing's leading edge, but well and truely felt it - and the closing speed was only about 120mph. Airliners are flying a _LOT_ faster than that, with higher pilot loadings when in the pattern and significantly less time to identify an (effectively) near-stationary object in the sky in front of you.

        the same applies to drones. They're small, slow and bloody hard to see - which is why I take all reported sightings with a large dose of cynicism, especially when you take into account that the number of "drone sightings" at Heathrow and other airports has an almost 1:1 correspondance with the decrease in the number of "bird sightings" - and having watched cranes and other large birds hanging around the streams on the south side of Heathrow, then flying north over the runways I know what I'm putting my money on as the more likely culprit for most sightings.

        _ANY_ transport pilot who claims that a drone tracked alongside their aircraft should be given as much credence as one who saw a UFO with Roswell Greys waving out the window at them. They may have seen something, but it wasn't what they think it was. Even racing drones can't go that fast and racing drones can only keep it up for a few seconds.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: How is it different

          the same applies to drones. They're small, slow and bloody hard to see - which is why I take all reported sightings with a large dose of cynicism

          So the question is if those sightings were collaborated by sightings from people on the ground who are both stationary and less occupied with other rather vital operations. Good question to ask IMHO.

          That said, it is in my opinion brutally academic if these are drones or not - it still holds that (a) we still see idiots fly drones near airports and (b) flying drones near where planes land and take off is quite simply a stupid, risky idea for which the drone owner should be fined into oblivion or locked up for wilful endangerment. If you're a pilot you know the enormous efforts put into risk avoidance and reduction, so idiots adding a risk factor just for giggles is not acceptable. There is no excuse for it.

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