back to article Node.js forks again – this time it's a war of words over anti-sex-pest codes of conduct

The Node.js community has again turned against itself, this time over a failed vote to oust a controversial member of the project's technical steering committee (TSC) over alleged code-of-conduct violations. Two years ago, the community was divided over Joyent's leadership, resulting in a major fork of the project, called io. …

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    1. Don MacVittie

      Re: Normal differences, nothing to see here.

      My first argument with my wife was about curly bracket placement. Seriously. We have never argued about social issues or SJWs.

      (I was project lead, I won the argument. It has been many years, and I'm still regularly reminded...)

  1. Fazal Majid

    We'll see if the Ayo fork gets any traction. The previous one Io.js was motivated by complaints that the main Node.js project then run by Joyent was too slow at incorporating technical feedback and contributions from outside the company, i.e. the technology was not progressing as quickly as it should.

    This fork is driven purely by process and personality conflicts, and is thus much less likely to provide benefits (new features or bug fixes) to the average Node.js developer. The fact it was launched before the Node.js board had the opportunity to respond to the complaints also looks like a fit of pique. After all, policy concerns around inclusiveness are not technical, and thus belong to the board, not to a technical steering committee.

    1. thames

      @Fazal Majid said: "We'll see if the Ayo fork gets any traction."

      According to Github, there are 22 people associated with the Ayo fork. Only 4 of them are listed in the top 100 contributors to Nodejs, with a total of 489 commits between them, and 2/3s of those being from one of them.

      A handful of Nodejs developers made most of the actual code contributions to Nodejs, with the top 3 being far ahead of the rest of the pack (in the range of thousands of commits each). None of them are involved with Ayo.

      A fork that actually took some major core contributors with it might have some traction. One that was just a clone of Nodejs under another name and struggling to keep up with copying security updates has no real attraction any serious users.

      As for how other people see the fork, Ayo has already itself been forked mulitple times, by Byo, Cyo, Zyo, etc., by people who are clearly taking the piss.

  2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    I'm trying to work out who's harassing who here. I think it's everybody and everybody else.

    It certainly wouldn't happen in the Linux kernel community.

    1. Orv Silver badge

      The kernel community has a pretty clear pecking order. Linus can be as abusive as he wants, no one's gonna get far with a kernel fork.

  3. Notas Badoff

    I'll see that, and raise you!

    Remember back when Joyent sat on everything and forced a fork, and then the foundation was formed, that CoC's were much in fashion, and this one was elaborate and larded with touchy feeley inclusiveness and no-touchy no-feeley warnings to the point of exclusion. I don't think any rational group would make this same mistake to the same degree now.

    That is, the pendulum is swinging back towards mere civility and politeness. Why is it that every excess, perceived and real, is met with such extreme excess, somehow meant to make up for all possible past sins and prevent future ones.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Rod and Vagg

    <<snigger>>

    As childish a response at the same level of intellectual ability as all those mock offended, politically correct thought policemen involved in this.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Rod and Vagg

      Click the link to his statement that's just been added to the article and read the first paragraph.

  5. Dan 55 Silver badge

    Well, I don't know who's done what to whoever

    All I know is that I'd skip node.js and use something else.

    1. Kristian Walsh Silver badge
      Mushroom

      Re: Well, I don't know who's done what to whoever

      I didn't need a demonstration of poor interpersonal communications skills from steering committee members to make that decision; this four-word description sufficed:

      JavaScript on the server.

      1. Orv Silver badge
        Flame

        Re: Well, I don't know who's done what to whoever

        Better JavaScript than Perl, I say!

      2. sabroni Silver badge

        Re: Well, I don't know who's done what to whoever

        It's just a language. You tell it what to do. The risk is in the code written, not the language itself. I'm sure node has a rigourous build process and plenty of testing.

        1. Dan 55 Silver badge

          Re: Well, I don't know who's done what to whoever

          No, JavaScript has rigidly designed areas of doubt and uncertainty.

          See for yourself.

          Or watch for yourself.

          But back to my point, any framework based on JavaScript (which we know has RDAODAU) which has x forks and stuff like this going on in its steering committee isn't calling out to be used. I don't even care about the detail, it just gives off an aura of "you'd be better off choosing something else".

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Well, I don't know who's done what to whoever

        Java* is enough for me - be it the -script or the programming language. There is something evil about Java, some miasma that rots the minds of developers and creates abominations, possibly, with the right java code, eventually a developer will summon the Old Ones before his/her brain burns out!

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Rod Vagg's response

    You can read Rod Vagg's response to the accusations against him here:

    https://github.com/nodejs/CTC/issues/165#issuecomment-324798494

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Anyone read the article?

    The Geoffrey Miller article makes a lot reasonable arguments, so much so that it's difficult to argue with the logic - and he's an academic, he's paid to do critical thinking regardless of the implications (which, agreed, some will not like). Vagg supporting it on twitter seems on the face of it an opinion - which he's entitled to have - based on an academic article. So far so uncontroversial.

    How do you get from there to ejecting the guy for supporting harrassment? It's a strange world we live in where the only accepted opinions are the "right" ones (and therefore not opinions at all) - which is of course the point of the article ...

    1. Kristian Walsh Silver badge

      Re: Anyone read the article?

      The complaint is that he acted like a jerk with other contributors, had a history of responding overly aggressively to requests to stop doing so, and tried to dominate discussion through bad behaviour rather than demonstrating better alternatives. (Even by Node's poor standards, he's an outlier)

      CoC documents are a bit dumb and cringeworthy, and they do tend to be framed in the language of Identity Politics, rather than starting from the simple rule of treating every other person with basic respect and manners. But that doesn't remove the fact that there are a lot of people out there who do need to be told what manners and civility are.

      I will not accept "oppression of neurological minorities" as a counter-argument, as it's grossly offensive to the majority of people with Autism spectrum conditions who are not dickheads, because they have chosen to not be dickheads. (Frankly I find the idea underlying this "defence", that someone with Aspergers or similar cannot tell right from wrong, more insulting)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Anyone read the article?

        "The complaint is that he acted like a jerk with other contributors, had a history of responding overly aggressively to requests to stop doing so, and tried to dominate discussion through bad behaviour rather than demonstrating better alternatives. (Even by Node's poor standards, he's an outlier)"

        Mr. Vagg addressed all those points in his response to the complaints, which I guess you didn't read?

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    For a committed lefty, this current fashion for shunning, screaming and demanding he removal of anything we don't like reminds me of Stalinism.

    It really does.

  9. samzeman
    Flame

    The article he tweeted in support of isn't very good, is the thing.

    Neurodiversity in the workplace is good, sure. But having a mental illness doesn't exempt you from following the social guidelines that are there for a reason. I myself have borderline personality, so sometimes I get manipulative or distant. I recognise this and do everything I can to try and solve it, and if it hurts someone, I apologise and treat it like I was just a neurotypical guy. Dysfunctional mental flaws can be treated like a NT's mental flaws (pobody's nurrfect) but extrapolated a whole bunch. You aren't a horrible person, but you still have to face up to the horrible things that you might do. It's a part of the disorder, arguably the worst part, that you have to fit into social codes that, as I said, exist for a reason.

    In universities, the places the article talks about, it's not like you'd get taken out for having tourette's. Some things are unavoidable and understandable. In fact most of them are. The key point is understandable. Rules in any institution should be flexible and a little context should always be applied. But if you're creating a hostile environment around you, and it's due to being neurodivergent somehow, then you should at least be told, although I agree not punished. Stealing to fund an addiction is frowned upon and little help is given, so the writer should focus on that area instead. Disobeying codes of conduct because you are compelled to or don't know not to should still be noted, and the person told, because everyone wants to be able to trust that the average person will be logical and reasonable. Improve understanding of neurodivergence in the people around you and let them know that sometimes you could lash out or be an unreliable person, or otherwise be difficult, and if they're your real friends, or reasonable people, they'll accept that and give you leeway.

    1. Kristian Walsh Silver badge

      Agree. Neurologically atypical people can unintentionally cause offence by saying the wrong thing, but being told "I was offended by that" usually resolves such issues. And at least in written communications, it's easier for that message to be conveyed; many or the problems around Aspergers particularly are due to an inability to pick up on tonal or facial-expression cues in face-to-face or verbal communications - the things that convey the real meaning to negative responses like "ooo-kay..." and "yeah, thanks for that".

      Knowing that a behaviour is offensive to somebody, and then choosing to continue with it in their presence cannot be excused on the basis of being neurodivergent. "Choosing" is the key word; people with Tourettes cannot choose; those with Aspergers most definitely can.

      I've worked in software a long time. Long enough to meet many people who'd be described these days as "neurologically atypical". Of those, the percentage of assholes was pretty much in line with the percentage in the "neurological normal" population... If there is really a particular cluster or clusters of neurons that makes someone a dickhead, it's not those ones.

    2. Cederic Silver badge

      "having a mental illness doesn't exempt you from following the social guidelines that are there for a reason."

      Autism is not a mental illness. The other issue is that the social guidelines do not make sense. They may be there for a reason but they're not written down anywhere, they change depending on who they're being applied to, they are inconsistently applied and they anticipate the ability to interpret things in a certain way.

      When you have Aspergers these things are all very apparent and utterly impossible to work with.

      Code of conduct : Treat everybody equally irrespective of gender.

      Woman : "Nice skirt" - welcome compliment.

      Man : "Nice skirt" - creepy harassment.

      Man staying silent - exclusionary behaviour == harassment

      So you can't fucking win, you can't follow the social guidelines, you can't tell whether a compliment is expected or abhorrent, you can't do anything except get shit for not being neurotypical.

      I'd say the article calls out a very real problem and if you really want to go this route: Your response to it is prejudiced behaviour towards people with a legally protected disability.

      1. Orv Silver badge

        At least in the US, businesses are required to make accommodations for legally protected disabilities -- but only *reasonable* accommodations. You are not required to hire someone who has no arms as a rappelling instructor. Someone with a personality that constantly drives away other employees is probably not someone you can reasonably accommodate in a job that requires human interaction, whether they can help it or not.

        Also your example is silly, because compliments on someone's appearance are never required. In fact I'd consider it kind of unprofessional if someone said that to me in a business context, unless it was someone I'd worked with a long time.

        I've known several people with Asperger's. They all had awkward slipups sometimes but none of them were offensive and rude on a regular basis. I'm sure they had to work at that harder than I would, but they got there. None of them had much patience for online bros who used being "aspy" (often self-diagnosed) as a get-out-of-jail-free card for bullying behavior.

    3. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

      @samzeman, that might be one of the more well thought through comments I've ever read on the Reg. Sadly one upvote is all I can give.

  10. ProgrammerForHire

    WHY

    Not even in the world of programming can't I escape the f**ing femiists tyranny ?

    1. Orv Silver badge

      Re: WHY

      The "NO GIRLZ ALLOWED" sign on your tree fort isn't big enough. Try adding one that says "GIRLZ STINK" with some smell lines.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: WHY

        He didn't mention girls, he refers to feminists. Not really the same at all. Or do you believe all women are feminists? Wouldn't that make me a 'malenist?'

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    A stifling environment

    This sort of thing really makes my skin crawl. Safe spaces, Twitter assassinations, SJW logic and a "fully inclusive" COC based on Bay area values so long that it is ludicrous. This seems like a great way to suck all the fun out of life and shut down anybody or anything that might be deemed 'offensive', 'inflammatory' or 'inappropriate' by one or two people without regard for context or a capacity to forgive, to turn a blind eye. A vision of grey corporate blandness remains, devoid of feeling or humanity and chases away the talented people that made Node JS what it is today. This is thought control by any other name.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Code of Conduct

    A code of conduct should only be applicable when people are together. What they do away from the others and what they post online should be left out. The person I am at church is not the same person I am at the bar.

    If I am on the clock and being paid then I follow whatever code of conduct I am being paid to follow but if I am off the clock it is not my employers business what I do.

    1. Orv Silver badge

      Re: Code of Conduct

      Personal and private life should ideally be kept separate, but you have to *actually* keep them separate. If Jeff posts regularly, under his own name, on public social media accounts about what horrible bastards the Irish are, sooner or later his relationship with his coworker Shamus is probably going to take a bad turn.

  13. Nick Z

    Negative feedback is important for learning from mistakes

    I've read the offending paper by Geoffrey Miller. And he doesn't say anything about people forming groups and cliques for excluding and discriminating against others. Which is what often happens in real life.

    People don't just act as individuals, the way Geoffrey Miller suggests. More often than not, people lead and follow each other. And when this happens with prejudice, then it definitely violates the rights of others and is wrong.

    In the past, women weren't allowed to go to colleges and universities not because some lone, eccentric men had something against them. It was because influential men organized together as a group and decided to exclude women from higher education.

    Perhaps individuals should be free to make mistakes and be wrong. But it's also important to have some negative feedback in response to their mistakes. Because that's how learning from mistakes happens.

    1. FeepingCreature Bronze badge

      Re: Negative feedback is important for learning from mistakes

      Sure but maybe the negative feedback can take a different form than escalation to the point of threatening one's livelihood.

  14. Stretch

    "participation in our project and our community a harassment-free experience for everyone, regardless of age, body size, disability, ethnicity, gender identity and expression, level of experience, nationality, personal appearance, race, religion, or sexual identity and orientation"

    Does not extend to those who indent with spaces. Burn them!

  15. Herby

    It is called...

    Sillycon Valley for a reason.

    For all concerned, the new "Code of Conduct" (all inclusive if you ask me) should be:

    1) Be Nice.

    2) Don't be a jerk.

    Enough said.

    Of course BOFH's excluded, but that is another story.

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge
      Devil

      Re: It is called...

      Google tried "don't be evil", didn't really work for them.

  16. Paper

    Eh???

    Why does someone's opinions have any baring on coding. Politics and coding should be kept separate. Coding is a science, the solution is either valid or invalid. People in public senior positions within coding projects should keep their political opinions private for the sake of being able to run a project without a bunch of liberal or conservative fairies having a metldown. Liberal and conservative fairies should not demand politics within coding either.

  17. Paper
    Coffee/keyboard

    Just don't be a doosh, don't take guidelines seriously

    Long ago came to the conclusion that guidelines can be pretty much ignored. They're just psychological masturbation for the bored and untalented.

    Just never be a doosh and 99% time you'll never hear about the guidelines anyway. And if that 1% time happens, just nod along mindlessly, offer a fakepology and throw out a compliment. Then promptly pretend the offended person doesn't exist.

    And it doesn't hurt to at least strive to treat others exactly as we would want and expect to be treated, including trying not to makes jokes at the expense of others in a public forum.

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