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back to article US Navy suffers third ship collision this year

The accident-prone US Navy has suspended all of its warship operations around the world following its third collision at sea this year. The latest incident took place between general-purpose destroyer USS John S McCain and a Liberian-flagged oil tanker, the Alnic MC, off the coast of Singapore, where the American warship was …

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                1. ElReg!comments!Pierre
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                  Re: What do they all do? @SkippyBang

                  There are only 2 types of (steerable) vessels : power and sail. That is very explicit everywhere, and puts rowing in the power category very explicitly.

                  2 0 Reply
                  1. SkippyBing
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                    Re: What do they all do? @SkippyBang

                    'There are only 2 types of (steerable) vessels : power and sail. That is very explicit everywhere, and puts rowing in the power category very explicitly.'

                    Well no, that's implicit, it's not written anywhere in the regulations as such. The regulations explicitly say:

                    3.

                    For the purpose of these Rules, except where the context otherwise requires:

                    (a) The word “vessel” includes every description of water craft, including non-displacement craft, wing-in-ground-effect (WIG) vehicle, and seaplanes, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water.

                    (b) The term "power-driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by machinery.

                    (c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.

                    I don't think a rowing boat fits under the definition in 3b. Unless you've got a robot at the oars.

                    2 0 Reply
                    1. ElReg!comments!Pierre
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                      Re: What do they all do? @SkippyBang

                      OK, This is mostly nonsense as in the high sea you'd do almost anything to avoid collision regardless of rules, especially if you were on a rowing boat, but let me elaborate.

                      Colreg 72 is specifically aimed at high-sea vessels, I think we can agree on that, it's explicitely stated.

                      For the purpose of ColReg, with as little interpretation as possible, a vessel is either "sail" or "power". No interpretation can possibly put "oar" in the "sail" category. As I, erm , "sea" it, the distinction is meant to be "vessels in full control of their thrust" vs "sail". In that case, mechanichal devices like oars, caterpilars or propellers are all alike, in that they are mechanical contraptions aimed at pushing the water backward in order to make the vessel go forward. The energy source is not stated in ColReg, so I would think that any vessel powered by mechanichal devices pushing the water backwards would qualify as "power", regardless of the energy source. ColReg does state "machinery". I'll let oaring enthusiasts fight over that precise word.

                      For the rest of the world, most rowing boats would fall in the "not under command" category, and these have automatic right of way, like it or not. (you may yell insults at them through the loudspeaker though)

                      4 0 Reply
                      1. SkippyBing
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                        Re: What do they all do? @SkippyBang

                        'Colreg 72 is specifically aimed at high-sea vessels, I think we can agree on that, it's explicitely stated.'

                        Rule 1:

                        (a) These rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels.

                        So they apply all over the place, e.g. the Thames in the middle of London, unless the local authority has made special rules, which should conform as closely as possible with the Rules of the Road.

                        Meanwhile, Rule 3

                        (b) The term "power-driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by machinery.

                        I don't think you can argue oars are machinery, in fact my copy of 'The Seaman's Guide to the Rule of the Road'* which the Navy optimistically issued in the hope I'd learn from it, states on p6&7 that an outboard motor dinghy being rowed along, because its motor has broken down, is not a power-driven vessel because it is not being propelled by machinery. To add confusion the rules on lighting have a section that applies to 'Lights for sailing and rowing vessels'. But at no point do the rules state, or the lessons amplify, what priority a rowing boat has.

                        You might be able to claim not under command, the definition is:

                        'The term "vessel not under command" means a vessel which through some exceptional circumstance is unable to manoeuvre as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.'

                        But then a pilot gig or whatever those things Oxford and Cambridge race should happily be able to manoeuvre as required.

                        *Morgans Technical Books Ltd 6th Edition, 1st Impression 1995.

                        2 0 Reply
                  2. Anonymous Coward
                    Reply Icon
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: What do they all do? @SkippyBang

                    "There are only 2 types of (steerable) vessels : power and sail."

                    For a long time many if not all vessels of any size were both. Most yachts still are. The separation is recent.

                    1 0 Reply
        2. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: What do they all do? @SkippyBang

          "You may be thinking of -steam gives way to sail, sail gives way to rowing boats."

          This does not, of course, help on a river when someone in a canoe turns suddenly into the path of 25 tonnes of narrowboat. Because they think they have automatic right of way. Though the desire to get out a loudhailer and shout the rules at the idiot is strong, it is also impracticable.

          5 0 Reply
      2. Lars Silver badge
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        Re: What do they all do? @SkippyBang

        "isn't it always the vessel that can get out of the way fastest that must change course to avoid the collision".

        No there is no such law, but that is what you do unless you are totally mad.

        This is all very embarrassing for the Navy. Regardless of who is at fault it should be totally impossible to ram a navy ship even if they dried to. I would advice the Navy to look at things like attitude, Do those guys feel too big and important and "untouchable". Hopefully not, Then there is the question of boredom, nothing is as boring as a ship without sails at sea in the night. And the bridge even more boring, no streptease, no card games, no booze. A yachtsman to my soul but I was in the merchant navy and a short time in the navy too. And then there is the important question about how situation information is transferred from one watch to the next. I Wonder are those guys in tee shirts and unable to have a look outside because it's too cold.

        While my comment might not show it, losing ships mates at sea is a lot worse than losing friends in some car accident. Lets not be too harsh towards those sailors and rather concentrate on training for the future.

        And for those who do, or do not, understand the difference between boring and not boring ships at sea, have a look at this. One of the very best you can find on YouTube. And there is some Alan Villiers too.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icnjC_gJOLQ

        8 0 Reply
        1. eldakka
          Reply Icon

          Re: What do they all do? @SkippyBang

          @lars

          No there is no such law, but that is what you do unless you are totally mad.

          As per @SkippyBing's post, there is a law that in effect states that:

          'In construing and complying with these rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these rules necessary to avoid immediate danger'

          While it doesn't explicitly say that the most maneuverable vessel must get out of the way, it does say that if it is within a vessel's power to prevent a collision it must do so. And logic would dictate that, usually, the most maneuverable, most response, agile vessel would, most of the time, be the vessel most likely to be in a position to prevent an imminent collision.

          5 0 Reply
      3. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What do they all do? @SkippyBang

        no not really

        16. The give-way vessel

        The give-way vessel must take early and substantial action to keep well clear.[11][page needed]

        17. The stand-on vessel

        The stand-on vessel shall maintain her course and speed, but she may take action to avoid collision if it becomes clear that the give-way vessel is not taking appropriate action, or when so close that collision can no longer be avoided by the actions of the give-way vessel alone. In a crossing situation, the stand-on vessel should avoid turning to port even if the give-way vessel is not taking appropriate action. These options for the stand-on vessel do not relieve the give-way vessel of her obligations under the rules.[11][page needed]

        18. Responsibilities between vessels

        Except in narrow channels, traffic separation schemes, and when overtaking (i.e., rules 9, 10, and 13)

        A power-driven vessel must give way to:

        a vessel not under command;

        a vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre (this may include vessels towing one another);[19]

        a vessel engaged in fishing;

        a sailing vessel.

        no and you couldn't say that the Tanker was restricted in her ability to manoeuvre

        1 1 Reply
    2. Mayhem
      Reply Icon

      Re: What do they all do?

      Another factor - all vessels over 300 tonnes have an Automatic Identification System (AIS) - a system explicitly designed to prevent collisions by providing tracking information to any vessel in a 10-20 mile range. This data is also passed up to satellites and can be used for longer ranges, and can be integrated into automatic pilot systems. It's also widely used by oceanic yachts and small passenger craft, and is basically the marine equivalent of the aeroplane ADS-B which all the flight tracking apps use.

      The US navy turns theirs off, because they don't want Johnny Foreigner knowing where they are.

      In a time of war ... sure, this makes sense. In peacetime?

      Turn your bloody lights back on and maybe people will stop hitting you.

      32 0 Reply
      1. anothercynic Silver badge
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        Re: What do they all do?

        Actually, what's worse... if *you* switch your AIS off, it's *your* responsibility to make sure you track other ships and stay the hell out of their way, especially if it's something rather sizeable like a VLCC that doesn't stop on a dime (compared to your puny ass that's probably much more maneuverable).

        19 0 Reply
      2. Anonymous Coward
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        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What do they all do?

        The US Navy turns their AIS off!?!

        Crikey, can you imagine the outcry if the RN did the same thing? How many people have been following Queen Liz on MarineTraffic since she slipped out of Rosyth a while back?

        12 0 Reply
        1. Jonathan Richards 1
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          HMS Queen Elizabeth...

          ...still belongs to her builders at the moment: she's a commercial vessel. Dunno what happens when she's handed over and put into commission.

          2 0 Reply
      3. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
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        Re: What do they all do?

        @Mayhem

        AIS...

        (At the time of writing, "Big Lizzie" last reported her position not long after arriving home...)

        http://www.shipais.co.uk/showship.php?mmsi=235107775

        2 0 Reply
      4. rh587
        Reply Icon

        Re: What do they all do?

        In a time of war ... sure, this makes sense. In peacetime?

        In fairness, there are good reasons to disable in peacetime (such as in-transit to a zone of operations) if you don't want the locals to know exactly when, where or from which direction you will be arriving in theatre. Likewise if you don't want to make it too easy for Russian/Chinese subs to tail you for <reasons>.

        But when you're playing in major shipping lanes (as per the McCain)? Probably best to turn it on or accept that as the ghost in the night, you're bearing additional responsibility for avoiding collisions because you probably have better instruments than anyone else, will be more manoeuvrable (x000s of tonnes, not x00,000s) and are deliberately deactivating collision-avoidance hardware.

        4 0 Reply

    3. This post has been deleted by its author

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Somebody call Tesla and Mr. Musk, and order autopilot stat!

    Seriously Navy... your orders are hang out in this (such and such) area and don't run into anything.

    WTF are you doing?

    My thoughts go out to the sailors that were injured and killed.

    But, someone needs to be demoted to piloting their rubber ducky in the bath tub.

    7 0 Reply
    1. Commswonk
      Reply Icon

      Somebody call Tesla and Mr. Musk, and order autopilot stat!

      How do you now that they didn't fit one months ago? Seems entirely likely.

      The answer, of course, will be "it's helmsman assist..."

      5 0 Reply
    2. Anonymous Coward
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      Anonymous Coward

      The McCain was going to port in Singapore when the collision occurred. That just happens to be one of, if not the, busiest stretch of water on the planet. That still doesn't explain much though. How the bridge crew lost situational awareness is the question. Hardware failures, other craft failing to follow rules of the road, or whatever else you can come up with isn't justification for a collision, especially when an Arleigh Burke class destroyer is one of the most maneuverable ships around.

      I served on a Spruance class destroyer with essentially the same gas turbine engines, variable pitch screws, and handling characteristics. Despite being merely an electronics technician, not only was all of the navigation gear my responsibility, I also qualified for helmsman, quartermaster and navigator of the watch. [I was to replace all three should the bridge crew buy it and other replacements unavailable. My division officer was to be the Officer of the Deck and my chief Junior Officer of the Deck.]

      This should not have happened, yet it did. You can expect the CO & XO being relieved of their command. Plenty more if the special sea & anchor detail was on deck, which is likely was since they were to making port.

      9 0 Reply
  3. John Jennings

    AIS

    The US navy do not publish their position on AIS, and (obviously) dont post an adequate lookout.

    The large commercial carriers often dont post an adequate lookout either, as just about everything in those waters has AIS, which gives them time to make adjustments. Radar is OK, as far as it goes, but can be problematic on so many fronts. NO technical means negates the requirement for Mk 1 Eyeball - from either side.

    COLREGS defines the international rules for the avoidance of collisions at sea.

    COLREGS

    Part A - General (Rules 1-3)

    Rule 1 states that the rules apply to all vessels upon the high seas and all waters connected to the high seas and navigable by seagoing vessels.

    Rule 2 covers the responsibility of the master, owner and crew to comply with the rules.

    Rule 3 includes definitions.

    Part B- Steering and Sailing (Rules 4-19)

    Section 1 - Conduct of vessels in any condition of visibility (Rules 4-10)

    Rule 4 says the section applies in any condition of visibility.

    Rule 5 requires that "every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.

    Rule 6 deals with safe speed. It requires that: "Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed...". The Rule describes the factors which should be taken into account in determining safe speed. Several of these refer specifically to vessels equipped with radar.The importance of using "all available means" is further stressed in Rule 7 covering risk of collision, which warns that "assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information, especially scanty radar information"

    13 0 Reply
    1. SkippyBing
      Reply Icon

      Re: AIS

      'The US navy do not publish their position on AIS'

      Which I really don't understand, if you see a RADAR contact without a matching AIS return the first thing you're going to do is investigate it.

      3 0 Reply
      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: AIS

        "Which I really don't understand, if you see a RADAR contact without a matching AIS return the first thing you're going to do is investigate it."

        If you think it might even just possibly be a USN guided missile ship I would imagine that is the last thing you would do. For two possible values of last.

        2 0 Reply
        1. SkippyBing
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          Re: AIS

          'If you think it might even just possibly be a USN guided missile ship I would imagine that is the last thing you would do. For two possible values of last.'

          Well in peace time it just looks suspicious, and certainly other navies are going to investigate it if only to relieve the boredom. And the US ship is unlikely to open fire* unless you did something very stupid like lock them up with your fire control radar. So they're still going to have their movements tracked.

          Full disclosure, I have found a variety of foreign warships** while carrying out surface searches, none of them fired at us.

          *Seriously they're not that trigger happy outside an actual combat area.

          **Definitely US, Russian, and French. I think Dutch and German too. Oh and Turkish.

          3 1 Reply
  4. Commswonk
    FAIL

    That explains it, then...

    During the "pause" US Navy investigators would be "focused on navigation, ships' mechanical systems and bridge resource management", according to Admiral Swift.

    Any navy that has concepts like "bridge resource managment" deserves to have accidents. I await the defence from the Officer of the Watch reading along the lines "I was trying to decode a load of management bollocks in Part 1 Orders* and I could thus not concentrate on where the ship was going".

    * Or whatever the USN has as an equivalent

    19 3 Reply
    1. SkippyBing
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      Re: That explains it, then...

      I suspect they've lifted this from 'Crew Resource Management' which is a big thing in aviation, and saw a significant reduction in the number of incidents and accidents. It's partly understanding how and why people make mistakes and also a drive to get away from the situations of old where the individual in charge would have such authority that his decisions wouldn't be questioned, which led to a number of fatal accidents. Basically it's trying to address the human error side of accidents, how well they've implemented it I don't know.

      12 0 Reply
      1. Christoph
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        Re: That explains it, then...

        And aviation have a hellaciously good reason to fix the 'single man in charge' problem - it was a major contributor to Tenerife.

        5 0 Reply
      2. Steve 114
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        Re: That explains it, then...

        Might have helped Tryon, in Victoria,1893.

        2 0 Reply
  5. Bruce Ordway

    Brings back memories

    Luckily my ship was only damaged once while it was being piloted into port. Nobody was injured in that incident. In fact it was a nice break for most of us. Our stay was extended for repairs at one of the nicer foreign ports .

    I do remember having frequent, vivid dreams about collisions. Especially when we were involved in exercises. I'm a bit of a pessimist anyway and at that time I really didn't have a lot of faith in my fellow crew-members.

    I think it is very hard to train and maintain crews during peacetime in general. In my time, (I believe) the quality personnel went to the carriers and subs. Smaller ships like mine received whoever... when they were available. Ships are (usually) going to be sent out if needed, regardless of manpower issues. Imagine a bunch of bored kids after months at sea. Accidents always seemed like an inevitability to me.

    11 0 Reply
  6. ArchieTheAlbatross
    Unhappy

    Convenient

    An approaching BCC under a Liberian flag, (if you're very lucky, someone on board may hold a valid watchkeeping certificate).

    Be afraid, be very afraid!

    3 2 Reply
  7. Ugotta B. Kiddingme

    passive sensor systems?

    "A modern warship like the McCain, an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer, is packed with radar and passive sensor systems. There is no reason why her command team could, or should, have been so unaware of other ships nearby."

    Couldn't agree more. One presumes the significant number of Mark I Eyeballs onboard are included in "passive sensor systems"?!?

    17 0 Reply
  8. EddieD

    Weird feeling of deja vu...

    Earlier on this week I posted on another forum about the pirates in the Asterix cartoons, once again I think of them, this time the lookout in the crows nest - even if the US navy had one, he'd probably be ignored just the same.

    4 0 Reply
  9. Graham Dawson Silver badge

    Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action.

    Better invade the tanker and liberate its oil, just to be safe.

    11 0 Reply
  10. UncleNick
    Pint

    "Left hand down a bit..."

    "Ev'rybody down!"

    11 0 Reply
  11. anothercynic Silver badge

    You really have to wonder...

    ... How the hell do you miss an oil tanker on your radar... Or, rather, how the hell do you manage to *not* avoid running into one?

    The US Navy has a lot to answer for. As supposedly the most technologically-advanced navy on the planet, this kind of stuff is just inexcusable!

    18 0 Reply
    1. imanidiot Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: You really have to wonder...

      They're not the most technologically-advanced navy on the planet. A lot of their equipment is old and outdated. But it doesn't get updated because doing so would mean updating the entire fleet. And that is too expensive.US armed forces in general a a very capable force, but a lot of stuff is old and tired. It is kept running to the best of their abilities, but true update/overhaul is never really performed in the way many other forces around the world do.

      2 0 Reply
    2. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: You really have to wonder...

      PLENTY of cases of where radar has played a part in collisions, starting with the Andrea Doria back in the 50s which was sort of the go to case for radar assisted collisions. Nothing like a good watch and good communications between the ships

      3 0 Reply
  12. Chris G

    Three collisions

    Are bad enough but colliding with a country? That's bad.

    My brother a long time yachtsman, told me most boats can handle the sea but land is bad for them.

    I think it may be time for US navy ships not in a tactical situation to use their ID transponders.

    4 0 Reply
  13. big col

    I wonder if Sub Lt Phillips, was on secondment to the American navy.. "left hand down a bit"

    6 0 Reply
    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      I wonder if Sub Lt Phillips, was on secondment to the American navy.

      Or maybe that bloke who ran Astute aground on Skye? Or the herbert who steered Ambush into a merchant ship in the Med? Or the chappy who directed Vanguard into the French Triomphant? Or the one who drove Superb into the sea bed of the Red Sea?

      Our much vaunted navy seem to feature disproportionately in the list of reported sub accidents. Obviously the non-Western operators probably keep as much quiet as possible, so we're not comparing to them, but Turkey, Israel, Japan and India all operate sub fleets larger than the RN. I can't be bothered to see if this is true of surface vessels. Any view, better informed commentards?

      5 0 Reply
      1. Robinson123
        Reply Icon

        It's just a statistical thing...

        As the US navy has many more of these things than any other navy, it'll often feature in such mishaps more often.

        Anyway Amazon has a book for the crew to read:

        https://www.amazon.co.uk/Avoid-Huge-Ships-John-Trimmer/dp/0870334336

        3 0 Reply
        1. werdsmith Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          Re: It's just a statistical thing...

          I would say that the reason the US Navy is involved in a lot more collisions is because they have a lot more vessels.

          0 0 Reply
      2. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Don't know about the Suberb one but that must have been a good while ago as she's been gone for ages. Vanguard and the Triumphant ...were they not dived so they will have not been active i.e. passive only sonar thus its not really a comparison to skimmers. Astute....yup I bet the bod on the plot was embarrassed (I would have been!!) and as for Ambush...well what ever she was doing it all went wrong.

        2 0 Reply
        1. Robert Sneddon
          Reply Icon

          Two in a box

          The British patrol SSBN has a dedicated hunter-killer "minder" sub to keep the Bad Guys from doing something nasty to them while they're out in blue water. The French SSBN patrol boat gets the same sort of escort. It has been suggested that for reasons of inflation both navies have fewer but larger escort subs in their toy boxes these days so the two countries have come to an agreement whereby the two patrol SSBNs get a single minder sub, time-shared between the two navies. For that reason both SSBNs patrol in the same "box" in the Atlantic off the Bay of Biscay. For other reasons they are very quiet boats and don't advertise their positions hence the coming together of hulls in the Vanguard/Triomphante collision.

          2 0 Reply
  14. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

    The shape of things to come

    When we get self-driving cars mixing with pedestrians, cyclists, horses, tractors and even Traction Engines.

    2 0 Reply
  15. TheElder

    I am just waiting

    To see something like this where I live. I am in Victoria. The waters here are about as busy as it can be. We have all sorts big and little islands, cruise ships, numerous ferries, tankers, sail boats, fishing boats, cabin cruisers, research vessels, whale watchers, movie makers, yachts from all over the world, barges, military from both sides of the border with submarines.

    I may have missed a few. These all must go through the quite narrow Straight of Wanna Fuck You. While it may look wide on Google Earth the actual channel is narrow. There are plenty of rocks. The entire area is mostly forms of granite. You want to build anything? Blasting is required.

    4 0 Reply
    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I am just waiting

      Been there and it is damned busy in the Strait of Juan de Fuca. Not as busy as the Strait of Malacca which I've been through on several occasions. By the way, I still remember my visit to Victoria. Absolutely gorgeous and the people took great care of me during the stay.

      4 0 Reply
      1. TheElder
        Reply Icon

        Re: I am just waiting

        Victoria is one of the safest cities in North America. Many people here smile.

        0 0 Reply
  16. Banksy
    Happy

    "The Chinese stuck their oar in...."

    I see what you did there.

    3 0 Reply
  17. Steve 114
    Black Helicopters

    Why-ever would a fast ship choose to cross the bows of some slow giant (with a big shadow), unexpectedly? Not once but more than once? Could any (covert) submariners advise?

    2 0 Reply
    1. TheElder
      Reply Icon

      Why-ever would a fast ship choose to cross the bows

      The usual reason is incompetence.

      3 0 Reply

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