back to article Don't buy Microsoft Surface gear: 25% will break after 2 years, says Consumer Reports

Consumer Reports has a message for its readers: one in four of your shiny Microsoft's Surface laptops and tablets might not outlast their new computer smell. The US nonprofit consumer product review mag today U-turned on its recommendation of Redmond's kit. The last time Consumer Reports removed a recommendation for laptops …

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      1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
        WTF?

        Re: Not just Microsoft

        "For my work, we have Lenovo (old IBM) laptops. 6 months in, and my T450 keyboard is already missing keys. The IT support guys can't be bothered to fix it..too fiddly, they advised me to order a new one!"

        Somebody needs to take a clue bat to them in a vicious manner! It's a 5 minute job, maybe 10-15 mins if the person doing it is a first timer, An official Lenovo FRU even comes with the tool to do the job, so hunting for something to open the case or the jewellers screwdriver for the captive screws in the keyboard! I've done a couple and it's one of the simpler laptops to do a kb replacement on and certainly doesn't mandate a whole replacement laptop unless the only person available to do the repair is on £1000/h + overheads.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Not just Microsoft

          Use of the clue bat might be justified, but it's hardly an uncommon scenario.

          I had my own "experience" with a lenovo. In my case it was a brand new T61 issued by the IT department. If I ran it from the power supply everything was fine, but if I ran it from battery it would crash within about 2 minutes. First it would show weird graphical glitches and soon after the OS would just freeze completely. Work IT department (and this was IBM at the time, so they should have known a thing or two about them) said they couldn't even replicate the fault, let alone fix it. My suspicion is they didn't read the fault report and just ran it off the PSU when they tested it.

          I suspected some sort of power regulation fault, probably something integrated on the motherboard. However, I never got to the bottom of it - in the end I just ripped out the HDD and swapped it into an identical T61 chassis that was left spare when a colleague left; the dodgy laptop went in a drawer until it was eventually binned due to old age. Other than causing someone a headache on asset tracking the replacement T61 never gave any trouble whatsoever over the next 5 years. Just goes to show - even with modern(ish) high precision electronic devices you still get the occasional lemon.

        2. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

          Re: Not just Microsoft @John Brown

          Is it a T450 that you've replaced key caps on?

          I know that when Lenovo switched from the old key shape to the newer 'chiclet' or island key shape, they also changed supplier. I've never had to fix a keyboard on anything newer than a T60 (my keyboards rarely get broken!)

          I've owned Thinkpads all the way from 365s to T420s, and the one thing you can say without any hesitation is that the keys change between model. Oh yes, they all use the scissor hinge and collapsing rubber bubble, pressing on a membrane, but the direction of the hinge, and the position of the clips holding the keycaps on has meant that keycaps are rarely interchangeable between models, and you often have to change the technique used to get the keycaps off. Re-attaching a keycap is possible so long as none of the plastic components are broken or deformed, but can be more than fiddly.

          As far as I am aware, the official fix is to replace the whole keyboard, and this is an exceptionally easy job as you say, normally requiring a small cross head screwdriver and some finger nails (or a non-scratching plastic tool), although I note on a T420 I have to hand, a flat-blade screwdriver would suffice.I find Ebay a good source of spares if you can't stomach the cost of an official FRU.

    1. tirk
      Facepalm

      Re: Not just Microsoft

      As laptops grew cheaper a few years back they clearly lost quality.

      Given the cost of surface products then they should be giving decades of trouble free service!

      1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

        Re: Not just Microsoft

        Given the cost of surface products then they should be giving decades of trouble free service!

        That would be a first from the House of Muggersoft.

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Given all the unwanted services, the incessant and wide-ranging 'telemetry' uploads, the unaudited, so probably deeply inefficient and hacky file system and paging code, and general bloat, it's highly likely Windows 10 puts a lot more stress on the hardware than any previous version of Windows did, and certainly far more stress than any running instance of Linux or OS X. So now that a critical mass of Windows 10 installations are out there, we'll be seeing a general increase in hardware failures. This is but one facet.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "Windows 10 puts a lot more stress on the hardware than any previous version of Windows did"

      From several of my systems that I migrated from Windows 7 to Windows 10, disk and CPU load on idle have both definitely dropped. And it's faster in general to use.

      1. TheElder

        I bought a new Intel I7 gamer style laptop last year with Win 10 Pro and SSDs. I am very disappointed. My Win 7 machine runs far faster with AMD and with the BIG super-cooler I use I can run it up to 4.4 GHZ. That includes one 27" 4K screen as well as a couple of smaller ones, one of which is 3D. It also has nearly silent fans. When not doing anything that uses a lot of graphics the power drops to maybe 8 watts. If I turn off a few cores then it goes even lower. I use three internal SSDs as well as one internal spinner. External is a couple of 3TB spinners from WD as well as my remote server for backup.

        I always use a gamer keyboard with LED lighting.

        1. ArrZarr Silver badge

          @ TheElder

          So what you're saying is that an overclocked desktop with a whacking great CPU cooler is faster than a laptop?

          Sorry man, not exactly an apples to apples comparison here.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Admins that don't know how to setup a Win10 device...

      ... is music to my ears.

      I call it "job security".

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I have no great love for Win 10, but I somewhat doubt that the OS on it's own would put sufficient stress on the hardware to create a noticeable increase in the failure rate. The main OS you're comparing to (Win 7) was hardly the paragon of computing efficiency either, regardless of how much you and I prefer it.

      Covering a computer in (heat insulating) alcantara fabric? That's got much more potential to lead to issues, particularly as it's an ultra compact device where heat dissipation is always one of the critical limiting factors for performance.

  2. mark l 2 Silver badge

    I never thought that Microsoft made particularly good hardware, look at all the problems with the red ring of death on the Xbox so i doesn't come as a suprise that 25% of Surface will break after 2 years.

    I am using a Dell Latitude laptop from almost 10 years ago and it is still going strong but obviously not running the original OS anymore as it came with Vista.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "I never thought that Microsoft made particularly good hardware"

      To be fair I've always found their keyboards and mice to be excellent. I also had good reliability from my original xbox (which is still going strong more than a decade later). However, they do have a rather poor reputation otherwise - so much so that I'm not inclined to put them on any of my purchase shortlists. Especially not when I'd have to pay a premium for the privilege of owning one of their products.

      Cheap, fast, reliable. Choose two*.

      *Choose one if you buy from Microsoft.

  3. ma1010
    Go

    Old can be good

    I have two old Dell Latitudes, almost same model, except the newer one has a 64 bit processor. I upgraded that one with a 500 GB SSD, more RAM (total 4 GB), and a Bluetooth card. It runs both Win 7 and Linux Mint 18.2 just fine. I use it for presentations and for emergency communications in the field, and it just keeps going and going. It's also pretty easy to work on; I did all the upgrades myself quite easily.

  4. John Jennings

    Dosent stack up with my findings

    We bought around 50 of the first surface pros - we have almost 700 in all now.

    With batch 1, to date, I have had 2 returns to Microsoft - TOTAL. I have also had 3 broken screens in traunche 1. (though I think 1 of those might ave been an effort to get a surface pro 4!). They were i3/64/4 datapads and not worth sending to the screen-menders.

    I have had 1 PSU failure also in that batch.

    No keyboard issues.

    Many of the pens didnt last - this was almost always lost.

    1. cambsukguy

      Re: Dosent stack up with my findings

      Hmm, 700 is statistically quite a decent sample.

      Those users didn't pay for the units so they are probably not as careful as I would be having paid serious money.

      Of course, they are looked after as far as SW management is concerned.

      Also tallies with the anecdotal evidence I have gleaned.

    2. Zane

      Re: Dosent stack up with my findings

      Either you are just lucky, or you users don't use the devices regularly.

      My personal statistics:

      100% of friends with Surface complain about hardware problems. Some are just annoying, others are bigger problems. Repair seems to cost a lot.

  5. ashdav

    The Old Days Were The Best

    Most of these hardware failures are caused by brittle solder joints since lead was taken out.

    Heat cycling (ie. normal use) breaks them.

    Hence why older kit keeps going.

    1. TheElder

      Heat cycling (ie. normal use) breaks them.

      Do not turn it off. Do not go into sleep mode. Just set the power use to minimum.

      1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
        Trollface

        Re: Heat cycling (ie. normal use) breaks them.

        Do not turn it off. Do not go into sleep mode. Just set the power use to minimum.

        Greens tossing in their bed because of unintended consequences.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The Old Days Were The Best

      Yep, agreed.

      Replacing a tiny amount of lead to stop it polluting the planet with something so useless it renders the entire device complete with lithium, cadmium, tatntalum defunct etc etc was a superb idea.

      Another example of somebody not having a clue dictating to everyone else.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Surface problems are two-fold

    1. Questionable build quality. But I don't think hardware failure is as big a contributor as...

    2. Unstable software.

    Just speaking from personal experience, I think CR is too hasty to blame the hardware, as we've seen a lot of W10 updates that break hardware compatibility. If we're relying on user reports then I don't expect the majority of them could distinguish between a hardware failure versus a faulty driver, at the end of the day all they see is a non-working fondleslab.

    That's probably where CR comes up with the insane 25% failure rate. Magical blue smoke events are rare, but that won't save you from device-bricking software updates.

    1. a_yank_lurker

      Re: Surface problems are two-fold

      Since the hardware is known to Slurp, they should know how to avoid borking their own kit when Bloat is updated.

      1. Scunner

        Re: Surface problems are two-fold

        I wouldn't rely on that. Hardware and software are different divisions. Left hand, meet right hand.

  7. ZiggyZiggy

    Yes Yes Yes Yes!!!!

    I have a Surface Pro 4.... I'm on the seventh warranty replacement device.

    First one was new (obvs), the next five - refurbs - and then after a (written) letter of complaint to MS, I got a new one which was brand new.

    The latest is okay... although build quality is poor at best compared to some I've had before - so I dread to think what it's like internally.

    But it's not crashing, vibrating, or with any screen defects - so it's a good start.

    All seven have made strange noises which I've not heard in any other device - squealing and clicking noises which appear to come from where the power is managed, and also the CPU (not from any moving parts!).

    It's a potentially nice bit of kit... but I wouldn't buy another one.

  8. Adrian Tompkins
    WTF?

    Not been my experience

    I usually go through laptops about every 18 months. The SP4 is a little past that now with no sign of quitting. Firmware updates come in pretty regularly and stability improved radically in the first few months. Barely a glitch worth mentioning these days.

    In an interesting irony GF bought me a Targus MacBook Air case to keep it in!

    1. Jason Hindle

      Re: Not been my experience

      Nothing beats a Targus case when you want that feeling of oozing quality :-/.

      1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

        Re: Not been my experience

        Stop being so Trump about a shitty laptop.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The jury is still out

    Whether this phenomenon of brittle hardware is due to deliberate planned obsolescence, or Microsoft's incompetence.

    Because Microsoft has already enforced planned obsolescence on its software, I'm more inclined to believe the former.

    Anyhow, buying a Microsoft Surface is just silly. You're paying premium money for a tainted brand which is deluded into thinking that it too can charge Apple's brand premium tax.

    If you really want to buy a Windows 10 laptop or convertible tablet, it's far more sensible to buy something from HP, Lenovo etc.

  10. Tommyinoz

    Why is anybody surprised?

    Why is anybody surprised? Microsoft demonstrated just how reliable the Surface is during their "iPad killer" presentation a few years ago. Here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1zxDa3t0fg

  11. Diogenes

    not a huge sample

    We have 10SP3s, I am typing this on one of them. So far only one non user caused failure , a problem between the charger input and battery.

    Having said that this week 3 of them started to show signs of the screen shimmy , mostly stopped for now by displaying seconds on the taskbar clock... mostly, it still happens sometimes on googles search results page when using chrome

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Surface to floor

    Missile...

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Microsoft is only interested in a couple of things....

    ....both related to one another:

    - Money

    - Destroying the competition

    *

    We can go back to the Bill Gates ploy with MS-DOS to harm Digital Research for early evidence.

    Later on we can see more of the same with (the same) Bill Gates success in destroying Netscape.

    Remember the DoJ win in court proving Microsoft were guilty of illegal "monopolistic practices"?

    *

    On the money side of the equation, you will recall that every new version of a key Microsoft product was deliberately NOT backward compatible with Microsoft's previous version (e.g. Microsoft Word). More licence money anyone? Then there's the enterprise software scam where companies have to pay a fee for every workstation which connects with Microsoft server products....no software involved, no support involved, just five dollars for Microsoft when another workstation connects to SQL Server.

    *

    And while all this was going on, Microsoft were shipping pretty poor products (Windows 98, Windows Millenium Edition, Microsoft Bob). Products which were open to multiple attacks -- often costly to the consumer and the enterprise (ILOVEYOU, Code Red, Anna Kournikova, etc, etc).

    *

    So why am I not surprised that in their foray into hardware, there are reports of high prices and poor quality?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Microsoft is only interested in a couple of things....

      You forget more recent lousy products -- Windows 8, Windows 8.1, "the ribbon" in Microsoft Word.....so many to choose from, so little space to write!

      1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

        Re: Microsoft is only interested in a couple of things....

        Don't forget per-socket/per-CPU pricing. Pulling in the money for stuff developed and bought by someone else.

        Up there with aggravated robbery and "VAT".

  14. Alex Read

    I've had the surface 1 since it's arrival. It's needed 2x Win-restores & 4 hard resets. Damn annoying but I had backups & didn't need to hand it into MS support.

    The surface 4 dock displayport support was released/sold in stores broken & after 1 year I now need to hand the whole machine back as the display's nuked. From my experince as a home user at least, the build quality and testing have sharply gone down.

    I'm as happy with MS kit as the stuff from Dell, Toshiba, Lenovo. Fujitsu & HP at the bottom too - they're all average/ not particularly great or long lasting IMO. I'm likely to try Apple next.

    I would nominate the arc mouse from MS as the worst built computer tech. 4 of 4 failed within 6-12 months at the most here!

  15. Christian Berger

    Well its consumer stuff...

    ... since returns of consumer products are not in any way related to the product actually breaking, and consumers having no idea if 1% or 10% of their product broke withing 2 years, there is no drive towards quality in consumer computers.

    Considering that business computers often even cost less than consumer ones, at a much higher build quality, one wonders why those products are still bought.

    1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

      Re: Well its consumer stuff...

      Considering that business computers often even cost less than consumer ones

      That's definitely not true.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Yawn

    Most of the devices I've owned (white goods included) have had at least one of: "startup problems, frozen machines, unexpected shutdowns or unresponsive touchscreens" at some point; not a problem, a cache clear, logout/login, reboot etc usually solves that.

    Does "break" in this case mean the same as "encryption xyz is broken", in that it's not 100% foolproof but in some situations it can fail or are we talking dead?

    It's always good to examine the parameters of surveys.

    Typing this on my Surface 1 Pro, Win 10 fresh with Creators Update.

  17. Toro22

    I am the owner of both a MBP and a MS SurfLap, reliabillity eval

    I have had the MBP since newyear

    The MS SurfLap for a month

    Typical usage, office use for the MS, Photo editing and general use for the MBP

    The MBP is not crash proof.. it dies appox every one-three weeks

    The MS SurfLap, reliably performs Harakiri every night... leaving me with a fresh empty desktop the next day...

    I will return with HW reliabillity as time passes...

  18. N2

    Everything they make

    Breaks.

    Even a fekking optical mouse diddnt last 18 months.

  19. John Hughes

    Only 25%

    My experience is that 100% of them are broken within a year.

    The screen is amazingly fragile.

  20. Kay Burley ate my hamster

    In my 20 years of IT support

    I've never seen anything so unreliable.

    Dead spots on the touchscreen.

    Batteries swelling up.

    Two button restarts taught to users.

    Fan noise.

    Keyboard faults.

    At least my users don't lose the pen.

  21. adam payne

    "Microsoft's real-world return and support rates for past models differ significantly from Consumer Reports' breakage predictability.

    While we respect Consumer Reports, we don't believe these findings accurately reflect Surface owners' true experiences or captures the performance and reliability improvements made with every Surface generation."

    Well you would say that Mr Microsoft mouthpiece.

    We have had dodgy screens, dodgy batteries and all sorts of other problems with our Surfaces. These problems occurred well before two years.

    I say forget the entire range and go elsewhere but of course directors have to have their shiny things.

  22. This post has been deleted by its author

  23. Howard Hanek

    Imagine

    If the creator or evolution made homo sapiens 'unrepairable'? With a life expectancy for 25% of two years?

    Remember the Dell capacitor scandal? Deliberately using ones with an only 18 month life?

    1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
      Paris Hilton

      Re: Imagine

      Remember the Dell capacitor scandal? Deliberately using ones with an only 18 month life?

      IIRC that was counterfeit chintokke product getting into the production stream?

  24. OffBeatMammal

    The "3" in Surface Pro 3 for me was the number of warranty replacements I had to go through before I finally gave up on the machine.

    First failure was the battery ... apparently holding a charge for more than 30 minutes is desirable, but when the device is a sealed unit it's really hard to replace the battery.

    Second failure was the screen stopped responding to touch except for about a 1" strip ... but that's glued to the unit as well and not replaceable

    Third failure it just refused to power up at all and the tech couldn't work out what it was so got the final replacement.

    The biggest problem for me though was the painful process of re-imaging the replacement machines (and this is a general Windows gripe) ... because of the convoluted registry it's not as simple as just doing a 'backup your apps and documents regularly and you can restore to a new machine" ... you have to reinstall programs (which is a pain if there are serial numbers or specific configurations that have to be re-created).

    I've quickly learned that the only place to keep documents is in the cloud (because I've Office365 I use, and like OneDrive, but GDrive or Dropbox are equally useful) because when Windows borks it tends to bork hard.

    I almost got a Dell XPS13 as the replacement, but I do a lot of video conferencing on the road and the camera position was just too weird, so now I'm using a Macbook Air (with Windows in a Fusion VM for the odd occasions I need it) and I'm very happy

  25. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Another Stumble for CR

    If any other "independent survey and consumer review" group used such a small sample of results against such a wildly popular product, the INDUSTRY would hang them out to dry. Apparently Microsoft is the exception, quite unfairly.

    I have two Surface Pro 3 with Surface Pro 4 FPR Keyboards and looking for more. My family, a bit more tough on gear than most (Dad will fix it), has been through Lenovo (too heavy) and ASUS (not durable enough) and we've settled on Surface Pro gear.

    CR got it seriously wrong this time. I've got friends and neighbors around DC with new Surface equipment and not one has failed or disappointed.

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