back to article Take that, gender pay gap! Atos to offshore hundreds of BBC roles

Hundreds of IT roles at the BBC are to be offshored to cheaper wage locations, under a £560m contract renewal coming into force with its incumbent outsourcing giant Atos. In a conference call with 300 staff - heard by The Register - Atos bosses said the new Aurora IT contract model will involve a "significant amount of …

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    1. Anonymous Coward
      Facepalm

      Re: Hmmm

      I don't know why, but I feel more and more a taste of pre French Revolution.... screw the Third State so the "nobles" can live better and better... cut the higher wages to ensure equal pay? Of course not! Better to fire some people.

      The important thing will be to ensure gender equality when heads start to roll...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Hmmm

        I propose equality by chopping the same amount of head off the men AND the woman! Vive la révolution d'élite en matière d'égalité!!!

        P.s. televise the "pay reviews" (beheading), it's always drawn a big audience

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I say can I have an extra portion of bullshit to go with this codswallop?

    There is no way on this earth that outsourcing with have any effect whatsoever on the gender pay gap at the BBC it'll just mean they have more technical hitches and bigger salaries for the boys.

    I just had to dig my birth certificate and nope it does not say yesterday.

  2. Bob Vistakin
    Facepalm

    Hmm, I wonder...

    Will any of the dozens of managers "living" in 5 star hotels for literally years whilst "working" at Salford Quays, who still have homes darn sarf and are there due to "relocation" be affected? The annual hotel costs are in the millions for these hardworking "managers", who naturally have only the public purse in mind.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Neither fish nor fowl

    One of the many, many problems I have with the BBC. One day they are a British institution, 'auntie', Lord Reith, 'above' commercial considerations, impartial, the last bastion of imperial times in a capitalist world et al. The next day they are a greedy, money grabbing nasty shower of shite, who are only interested in commercial gain. They need to fucking make their mind up.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "There was some uncertainty as to what would happen if they remain in the "availability pool" for too long."

    I'm sorry to be the one to inform this poor person, but there is absolute certainty on the outcome of remaining in the "availability pool" for too long.

    1. GruntyMcPugh Silver badge

      "availability pool"

      Indeed,.... when I was an IBMer, we had an "availability pool", it was called 'The Bench', and lifespan on 'The Bench' was three months, and you were expected to relocate. I was on 'The Bench' twice during my time, and relocated once. Both times I had to change jobs because my role was offshored. I can't see ATOS not offshoring increasingly more people.

  5. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

    The Beeb is just following precident

    of a whole boat load of companies and even Government Departments.

    This is news?

    The whole UK IT Industry will soon be based in Bangalore/Chennai/Mumbai/etc.

    Just a sad fact of life here in 2017.

  6. Alan Johnson

    Help with pay gap

    The pay 'gap' is not that women are paid different amounts for the same job but that the average/median pay for all women is less than that for all men ignoring differences in role, experience and hours worked. It has little if any signifiance but is strongly discriminatory in effect if a target of no gap is applied precisely because it ignores the differences in roles, experience and hours worked.

    Outsorcing may well help this 'gap' by getting rid of skilled experiences and generally male IT workers but the metric is meaningless from a discrimination point of view.

  7. poohbear

    So let me see if I've got this straight...

    1. The pretty boys are earning way more than the PM, for mugging for the camera.

    2. The pretty girls are earning way less and are upset.

    3. Solution is to save a few quid by outsourcing the not-so-pretty people's jobs offshore, to pay the pretty girls the same as the pretty boys.

    As opposed to, for example, cutting the pretty boys' salaries down to the same as the pretty girls?

    Won't someone please thing of the not-so-pretty people who actually work longer hours than those pretty people? They also need to eat....

    1. RealBigAl

      re:So let me see if I've got this straight...

      Not entirely. The pretty girls are on record as saying it's not about them, who are all well paid, it's about the average workers, backroom staff etc, where there are many more woman paid less than men doing equivalent jobs.

    2. Prst. V.Jeltz Silver badge
      Pint

      very well put , Poohbear

  8. bdam
    Facepalm

    A message to those who lost their jobs from Gary Lineker

    Cheerio

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    What offshore staff?

    Atos can't get the staff to cover the existing contracts that have been off-shored. Where do they expect to get the additional staff from to cover another large contract being off-shored? Current ratio is about 3 off-shore staff capable of doing the role of 1 decent on-shore staffer.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: What offshore staff?

      "1 decent on-shore staffer". What percentage of on-shore staffers would you say are "decent"?

      It isn't really a 3 to 1 ratio, it is almost 1 to 1 the problem is that the percentage of "decent" off-shore staff is a lot lower than the percentage of decent on-shore staff. Couple that with the fact that decent off-shore staff are in such high demand that they can get huge salary bump by moving to a different provider every year or two taking their institutional knowledge with them, and you get the real problem with off-shoring.

      If only it was possible to fire all the less than decent on and off shore staffers, those who are left would probably get as much done not having to clean up the messes left by the incompetents!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What offshore staff?

        What percentage of on-shore staffers would you say are "decent"?

        75-80% of on-shore staffers are decent. 75-80% of off-shore staffers are not decent.

  10. DagD

    I wonder what the cost of living is there...

    Starting to think us IT folk need to move to India in order to keep our jobs.

    SMH...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I wonder what the cost of living is there...

      "Starting to think us IT folk need to move to India in order to keep our jobs."

      At one time I could have relocated to India for a higher standard of living. The problem comes if you ever want to come back.

      1. Dan 55 Silver badge

        Re: I wonder what the cost of living is there...

        The British government have heard your plea and are currently working hard on driving the UK's economy down to third world levels.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I wonder what the cost of living is there...

      What do we think will happen when all the roles are filled and number of employee's is less than roles available?

      Wages go up.

      Living standards go up.

      The cost of outsourcing goes up but it's too late to bring it back and you end up paying the same as what you were paying for on-shore staff.

      Welcome to the future. Outsourcing IT, the short term game that going to hit some companies very hard eventually.

  11. This post has been deleted by its author

    1. Commswonk

      Re: Not Wanted - Engineering Roles

      I have said this before, "management" think that engineering is beneath them, so they treat them accordingly, yet any reasonable engineer can manage the management role.

      Trouble is that a "reasonable" (or better) engineer may be unwilling to sell his (or her) soul for the priviledge of taking on a management role.

      On your wider point of Was it only a few months ago that we were being told that the UK does not have enough IT educated people so have to source from the migrant population.

      How many times have we been told that we do not educate enough people in STEM ?.

      Here we have a British Institution doing exactly the opposite of what is required.

      Other companies have done similar - offshored to the detriment of local employees, and then discover that they lack the expertise to even understand the projects that they have offshored. Costs increase, and they do not understand whether the costs are warranted.

      This message deserves to be shouted ever louder until someone actually takes notice. Why would anyone in possession of a modicum of common sense want to pursue a career that can be exported to the lowest bidder on a whim? And why would anyone choose to be loyal to an employer that will effectively deprive them of their livelihood without a second thought?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Not Wanted - Engineering Roles

      You want to know something really ironic?

      The BBC outsourced some of this stuff originally because the engineers were producing a good service at a rate so far below the market equivalent (they checked) that it was well worth spinning off the expertise as a commercial venture.

      This is the last serving of the Golden Goose pate they made from those engineers.

    3. PM from Hell

      Re: Not Wanted - Engineering Roles

      I'm irritated by the scorn poured on media degrees by ill informed commentators. I am extremely proud of my son who completed a media degree and has now worked on location production in over 50 mainstream films in the UK (as of yesterday he has 49 credits on IMDB). Like 90% of people in the film industry he took years to get established after his degree. Working initially for nothing, making music videos for new bands or filming indy films for new producers, then working purely for expenses before finally breaking in to paid work. His degree was 3 years of intensive practical work giving him the skills he would require operating and maintaining recording equipment, filming and producing in studio and externally, and in his case, hosting a weekly overnight radio programme. This new generation of film makers is generating billions of pounds each year for the UK economy and will produce the next generation of producers and directors who may lead a resurgence of British produced films in the future.

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Customers know where the jobs are going

    Customers of outsourcers know where the jobs are going geographically and often drive the work to the lowest cost locations as part of negotiations. It's typically fundamental to the contract to drive down price, and the customers want to gain security / service assurance associated with the offshore locations, which can include security audits, additional security tooling, visits to the offshore locations etc.

    If customers wanted the jobs to be in the UK they would stipulate this in the contracts and then the outsourcers would have to be contractually compliant.

    To suggests the customers are outsourcing to providers with no knowledge of what's happening to the staff's roles is disingenuous, however it is convenient for them to pass the blame on to the outsourcer when the publicity is bad.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    if we won't have foreigners

    to do the cheap work in the UK, we will outsource their cheap work. Hurrah for brexit (has anyone mentioned brexit yet?!)

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Joke

    Its nice to see BBC trying to return to classic quality programming!

    I bet it's been awhile since many of you have seen "Please stand by, we are experiencing technical difficulties" on television!

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: Its nice to see BBC trying to return to classic quality programming!

      Why do you think they pay Huw Edwards so much? (link)

  15. JMiles

    In the end, the tax payer is paying for the profits of some commercial entity and the jobs of people elsewhere in the world.

    I must be in the minority who believe that taking tax payers money to give it to a commercial operator who was only chosen because they could offer the lowest price by sending jobs abroad is wrong.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "I must be in the minority who believe that taking tax payers money to give it to a commercial operator who was only chosen because they could offer the lowest price by sending jobs abroad is wrong."

      But a majority of the people who actually understand the issue.

      As someone above points out, the thing worse than "foreigners coming here and taking our jobs" (Not commenting on whether this is valid or not) is foreigners coming here and taking our money to spend on jobs abroad, so that the money isn't being circulated in this country any more.

      There was that case recently of the woman who applied for Swiss citizenship and was turned down, inter alia, because she shopped at Aldi and not in the village shops where she lived. Whatever it tells you about Swiss narrow mindedness, it also tells you that they understand economics rather well.

      1. Commswonk

        foreigners coming here and taking our money to spend on jobs abroad, so that the money isn't being circulated in this country any more.

        This is an entirely valid point; furthermore we regularly hear someone from gov.uk crowing about the number of people in work and yet this never seems to be accompanied by a corresponding increase in the tax revenue available to support the NHS, Police, and so on.

        I am of the view that the increasing number of people reportedly in work conceals an uncomfortable fact; I suspect that many of the jobs they do are at a level of remuneration that entitles the individuals to in - work benefits that more than wipe out what little income tax that they pay; I suspect that many of the jobs are subsidised by taxpayers to the point that they drain resources from the Exchequer, not add to them.

        IIRC at one point the government stipulated that "Indian" restaurants wishing to import skilled chefs had to pay a minimum salary somewhere i.r.o. £20,000, which is well above what someone on "living wage" currently earns. It may actually have been more than that figure. Whether it actually came to pass I don't know.

        Overall our current employment practices (inc overseas outsourcing) and what people are paid are completely unsustainable.

  16. Halfmad

    New tooling?

    Some new top level management with "sir" and "Dame" as titles picking up a pay cheque?

  17. MMR

    Oh well. Only a matter of time before the PM is outsourced to Capita/Serco/G4S.

  18. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
    Joke

    News at Ten

    And now on BBC1, live from Mumbai, the News at Ten.

  19. Anonymous South African Coward Bronze badge

    In the end people will not go into IT as there will be no job security, leading to a critical worker shortage, which may be exacerbated should hostilities between the countries involved, break out.

    Now *that* will be an interesting scenario.

  20. crediblywitless

    Believing the opposite of what James Purnell says and doing the opposite of what he wants strike me as generally good rules of thumb.

  21. -martin-

    Do these companies just add Million or billion onto the end of the numbers? How can things possibly cost this much!

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    There is a plus side

    With this raft of new jobs going to India, perhaps some of those that ring me on a daily basis to tell me that my computer has a virus will be able to find gainful and "honest" employment.

    Honest in inverted commas as little in value when coming from the BBC. Is that the truth or did you hear it on the BBC?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: There is a plus side

      @AC

      With this raft of new jobs going to India, perhaps some of those that ring me on a daily basis to tell me that my computer has a virus will be able to find gainful and "honest" employment.

      Well, gainful at the very least, depending upon the job, have access to a smörgåsbord of identity and bank account details to plunder. Posting as AC as I've reported incident at place I work...

  23. CPU

    LOL- the fools

    As someone working for another national company that did this, I can say that service has plummeted and costs has risen indirectly. What I mean is that the powers-that-be thought the outsource was all encompassing (cap on costs), but guess what, it's not. And boy are the outsourcers taking in the extra money in the form of "not in the contract" response.

    Congratulations Beeb Management, you've just lit the fuse on your own demise, but you don't care, because you're going to award yourselves big fat bonus for being "clever".

  24. sp1nyn0rman

    Beeb Offshoring?

    Easier way to address the gender pay gap - reduce the pay of thos earning over £150K to the salaries the Women earn. no problem, women have parity and no pay rise, those richer than Croesus have to work for once in their lives if they want to earn £2M+

  25. NeilPost Silver badge

    TUPE Breach ??

    So I guess these people are being effectively being made unfairly redundant under their TUPE protection from BBC --> Siemens --> ATOS. I don;t think off-shoring jobs to Poland because they are cheap covers an Organisational Change. As both the UK and Poland are in the EU - The European Union Business Transfers Directive legislation this derives from will cover both ends.

    "If an employee is made redundant for an 'economic, organisational or technical' reason involving changes to the workforce, they may be entitled to a redundancy payment. After a transfer, a new employer has to close down part of a company because it's not performing."

    https://www.gov.uk/transfers-takeovers/redundancy

  26. Steve B

    Isn't this illegal?

    I thought tendering was supposed to be blind. from the dialogue it is as though this Atos lot KNOW they have to bid lower to beat the others, which implies they know the figures.

    As to the solution, can't say I really know any BBC faces, so the fees should be lowered and if the faces don't like it there are now several hundred alternative places for them to seek employment.

    The major problem with the equalisation of sexes was that it was done wrong - same as minority equality. People should get a job because they are the best for the role, not because they are the right shape or colour. The reward for the role should be the same whoever gets it. Simple! You now have the best staff for the company, but then the type and shape numbers would not necessarily add up.

    As for ourtsourcing to India, one only has to look at BT and their support. I had a simple issue to deal with, but it took something like 12 phone calls to their support line to find someone who understood Queens English AND knew the BT product AND knew what to do. It was a simple request about their Alarm Call service *55*, but one conversation - after 15 minutes went "Have BT installed a special Alarm extension in your house?" My shocked response on the lines of enquiring if she was taking the Michael resulted in the line being dropped and back to square one. btw they were never able to resolve the issue because the problem lay with different BT departments/companies and there was no interaction.

    I know the last series of Doctor Who was complete crap but maybe this outsourcing lark included script typing via the IT. that would explain why it never made sense and was non-sequiter from previous series.

  27. Panda1

    BBC pay equality.

    Reduce to overpaid mens salary to the same as the ladies....simples.

  28. Brian Allan 1

    I think the gender issue is being blown out of proportion. Companies simply look at the bottom line and decide where they can optimize expense vs. revenue, i.e.: the highest profit for shareholders. And the lowest (manpower) expense is definitely not going to be found in the UK!

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