Microsoft admits to disabling third-party antivirus code if Win 10 doesn't like it Windows 10 does disable some third-party security software, Microsoft has admitted, but because of compatibility – not competitive – issues. Redmond is currently being investigated in the EU, Germany and Russia over alleged anti-competitive behavior because it bundles the Windows Defender security suite into its latest …
IMHO when it comes to Linux in a professional environment, I'd like to see professional (in act not necessarily paid for) support and help. When in the past I've been on forums asking for help all I've encountered is abuse and ridicule because I'm a noob.
Stop using StackExchange, you'll feel much better.
On Windows forums, Windows issues are invariably greeted with "it must be a virus" or some other inane comment, but when I wade through the dross I can normally find something sensible.
I've seen MS professionals (whatever they call them on MS's own sites) getting abusive to users who insist they have a particular problem when said MS Pro claims such a problem is impossible. Only fix was a reinstall in the end. See people abused because "my system won't boot, just has a flashing cursor" isn't a suitable response to the advice "just go to system restore to fix it". And all sorts of abuse of "clueless noobs" on there.
I've seen great people on Linux forums go to huge lengths to help someone out with some obscure problem.
And I've seen the opposite. A MS support tech calling from the UK on her own dime because she too was pissed at the "you're lying, this problem cannot happen" response from her peers, and some Linux people being downright dicks to an honest question from a newbie.
As to the question "why would you want to do that", sometimes the question is asked as in "what are you trying to achieve" - so then they can give you the best answer. I've asked the same on a regular basis, "why do you want to do such-and-such"; by understanding their need/desire I have a greater chance to give them advice the works. Course, there are those who say it in a less-than-helpful sense, but I've seen those in Windows places as well.
Funny thing is, the reason you give why you hate Windows is the exact reason Linux isn't for the majority. The majority of computer user ARE granny. There are few power users outside of the tech community and most of the world is not part of the tech community.
Funny thing is, the reason you give why you hate Windows is the exact reason Linux isn't for the majority. The majority of computer user ARE granny.
So.. A simple, intuitive and stable UI is impossible for them to use, but Windows which changes each release, changes even when explicitly told not to change, moves (and removes) settings constantly is something they'll manage to handle?
Rubbish. Do you people not realise how stupid your undying support for MS makes you look? Do they have your kids at the point of a gun or something? How else do you justify supporting that garbage?
I give elderly friends (and family) Linux, and they love it, because they can use their computers again. They're not fearful to browse the web because of drivebys etc, they not worried that updates will kill their settings, no need to worry that the family snapshots will be slurped by some scumbag company intent on doing who-knows-what with the pics of the grandkids at the pool. They find their lives much improved by ditching Windows in place of Linux. They're not power users, they don't need to know what sudo is or what root is (I take care of that stuff through ssh if I really need to, they just want a machine that works. They want a machine that when they shut it off before going to bed, it's shut off a few seconds later not some rubbish "please wait for an hour or more while we slowly install a kilobyte of updates" and the same when they turn it on in the morning (older people tend to prefer to turn things off at the wall before going to bed at nights IME).
So do the old folks in your life a massive favour they'll love you forever for. Take their windows junkboxes, wipe it (after taking their documents and other stuff like email/passwords off), install any Linux (Zorin has a nice Windows 7 look and feel, others do XP if you need to), and give them a machine they can use and enjoy again, where they don't have to wait hours for the thing to slowly faff around doing who knows what. Where their internet connection is their internet connection, not a conduit for some (probably) pervs to download all their personal data. Give them a machine they'll love and enjoy, rather than a piece of shit they fear and despise.
Are you writing your post from the 1990s? MS controls the distribution system very little today - or, for example, you won't see Chromebooks made and promoted. Dell sells you PCs with Ubuntu preinstalled. All of them are so eager to sell PCs they would sell them with any OS that sells enough, and which doesn't cost them too much in support costs.
The fact physical shops mostly don't have them is simply because Linux PCs don't sell that way. What would you preinstall? RedHat? Fedora? CentOS? Debian? Ubuntu? Mint? <put your distro here>? Linux users buy a PC and then install what they want to use.
It's years I buy PCs without a preinstalled OS - of course they are not the cheap $299 one you find at supermarkets. Those need so be subsidized somehow, and which Linux company would do that?
I see 3 main Linux isn't gaining in the desktop market
1) No supported major applications (yes I know there are alternatives but they are not the same)
2) Poor game support
Most of the other issues can be solved fairly easily by the open source community
This post has been deleted by its author
And then you all miss the biggest cost. Most organizations have, with few exceptions, enough staff that the cost of training the staff. Generally the cost of 1 hour's training, regardless if this is enough, if vastly more than the licensing costs for Windows. Not to mention the reduced efficiency while staff, generally non-technical themselves, learn to use something else and the reduced satisfaction of staff forced to learn something new. Most places I have worked use software, to may be different if all they need is a web browser.
There is also generally a cost to moving data and workflows away from the software which only works on Windows / Mac normally and then often there are several industry standard pieces of software and using them is expected.
It staff trainined and experienced in Linux support are also expensive.
As you can see the cost of purchasing licenses is hardly relevant to the cost of ownership. Sorry to say as I quite frankly love Linux and use it on 65% of my personal computers! Of course the cost of making a Wannacry type mistake is another thing in itself and may be avoided by using Linux, but that is another thing in it's entirety.
Generally the cost of 1 hour's training, regardless if this is enough, if vastly more than the licensing costs for Windows.
So.. The significant changes from 3.x to 9x, the significant changes from 9x to XP, the significant changes from XP to Vista, minor but enough from XP to 7, very major changes from 7 to 8, significant changes from 8 to 8.1, very major changes from 8.1 to 10, and the many changes within 10 - how did they mitigate against these extra training costs? Or the many changes in UI from version to version of Office?
I'm using Mate on Linux. Largely the same interface as I had waaaaaay back under Gnome 2 (has some features I love which aren't readily available elsewhere, but I am partial also to KDE at times, which has been stable for some years as well). Even with the different UI's in Linux there's still a lot of logic behind the layout, so much so that computer illiterate people can still easily find their way around and do stuff with confidence that they cannot even begin to figure out on Windows.
Note if not in this thread than in another in the last few days a Win pusher has been saying all you have to do is learn where the config settings go from new version to new version.
It staff trainined and experienced in Linux support are also expensive.
No. Double-clicking the Firefox icon on your desktop is double-clicking the fierfox icon on your desktop on any OS. Or you can have it on the task bar. Few users need more than a few programs at work, and there is enough screen real estate that they can have what they need pinned to the taskbar or on the desktop (especially if you train them the desktop is not a good place to store documents!).
My eldest friends and family members are now all experienced in Linux. They don't have problems with it, and that's because the UI is simple, intuitive, and stable
Sorry but Linux, in any form is not a viable replacement for Windows as an OS;many companies still have legacy software that will only run in Windows, and quite often Linux versions of software are lacking in functionality and/or the interface looks like it was created in 1995.
Not to mention the number of times it's necessary to drop to command line in Linux to carry out operations that in Windows can be done by a few mouse clicks; also the fact that there is still a lack of hardware support for Linux, from even major manufacturers, means Linux is still not really ready for general usage by the great unwashed.
Patrician: "Linux versions of software are lacking in functionality and/or the interface looks like it was created in 1995."
Your FUD definitely looks like it was created in 1990:
Linux Mint 18.1 "Cinnamon" overview
Unity 5 running on Ubuntu Natively
Patrician: "Not to mention the number of times it's necessary to drop to command line in Linux to carry out operations that in Windows can be done by a few mouse clicks";
How to enable and disable SMBv1, SMBv2, and SMBv3 in Windows and Windows Server: '.. configure the following registry key:
Registry subkey: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\LanmanServer\ParametersRegistry entry: SMB1
REG_DWORD: 0 = Disabled
REG_DWORD: 1 = Enabled
Default: 1 = Enabled'
...."Your FUD definitely looks like it was created in 1990:
Linux Mint 18.1 "Cinnamon" overview
KDE Plasma 5.X Review 2015
Ubuntu Gnome 17.04 Review
Unity 5 running on Ubuntu Natively"
I was referring the software not the OS with this comment as I stated in the comment it's self.
How often does an end user need to disable SMB shares manually on their PC? Again I was referring primarily to software/driver installation example as below:-
Install Plex Home Theater in Mint run the following commands (Once you've managed to work out which version will work in Mint that is):-
sudo add-apt-repository ppa:plexapp/plexht
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get install plexhometheater
Install Plex Home Theater in Windows:-
Download, left click "setup", left click "next", left click "next", left click "finish" - all done and no need to go any where near a command line.
While it's still necessary to drop to command line to carry simple tasks like installing some software Linux, Mint or otherwise, will never be ready for main stream use.*
* I'm not talking about people like us that post here, by "mainstream" I'm referring to "users" in the very broad sense.
Install Plex Home Theater in Mint run the following commands (Once you've managed to work out which version will work in Mint that is):-
Just checked. Can do it via GUI interface. IOW, what you say is rubbish.
As to disabling SMB, enabling hardware etc - every time an MS update puts it into an inappropriate state.
BTW, since you like talking about bits of OS's that make them extra difficult, how do you reliably get around "the drive where windows is installed is locked, please unlock the drive..." when Windows won't boot? Hm? How is that easier than doing a quick copy'n'paste of a few commands into the CLI? How do you get Windows 10 into any sort of repair mode, other than deciding before you shut it down that it must be time for it to fail to start so you can choose safe mode before you know you need it? How is that sort of shit even defensible?
While it's still necessary
For people like you to spread lies about other OS's, people will still be stuck with that malware infested mess.
I have plenty of people who are elderly, don't know much about computers, and use Linux happily - chiefly Mint but I have put some on other things in years parts.
They love it because it is fast, stable, secure, doesn't spy on them, doesn't disable network hardware/cameras/printers etc due to failed updates. doesn't delete software because MS has a competing product that is less than worthless crapon a whim because of "compatibility", doesn't tale hours to shut down and even more hours to restart doing "updates" in a style that should never have been used since 1995, oh and any hardware they plug in "just works straight away", never a need for drivers etc etc.. IOW, they thank me for making their computers easy to use again, and making it look like the interface they're used to (XP or 7) rather than the new interfaces that confuse them. They want to be able to chat reliably to the grandkids, some emailing, some facebook, and for the real technical ones, a spreadsheet so they can keep track of their finances. And they want to be able to trust that their stuff will work when they turn their machine on, and their privacy respected.
The trust has gone from Windows, as has the usability.
"How do you get Windows 10 into any sort of repair mode, other than deciding before you shut it down that it must be time for it to fail to start so you can choose safe mode before you know you need it? How is that sort of shit even defensible?"
Boot from the Windows 10 DVD or USB stick (which works even if Windows is so messed up it can't even get into the recovery environment) and select repair. It's definitely a step backward from the old F8 menu, though, and you can have that back with a registry edit (assuming you do that in advance, before there is any trouble). I did with Windows 8.1 (which also has the F8 removed by default), and I have used F8 many times since then.
Supposedly, the F8 option has been removed for purposes of speeding up the boot process, but I can't see any difference between having it enabled and having it not enabled. If there is a difference, it's too slight to be noticed, and with that being the case, I would rather have the F8 menu be standard once again, for the reasons you mentioned. But this is from the company that now thinks it's appropriate to have a sad face emoticon and "something happened" instead of the old blue screen, and that now uses a creepily familiar tone with system messages like "We're setting things up for you" or "we've updated your computer." In the ransomware era... who is "we?" (Who is General Failure and why is he reading my drive C:?)
"Not to mention the number of times it's necessary to drop to command line in Linux to carry out operations that in Windows can be done by a few mouse clicks"
how about "not to mention the number of times it's necessary to take my right hand off of the damn keyboard in Winders to go mousie-clickie-mousie-clickie-mousie-clickie to carry out operations that in Linux can be done with a single clever shell command."
I stick my tongue out and make a raspberry noise in your general direction!
"Linux, in any form is not a viable replacement for Windows as an OS"
Four years ago, I decided to do my best to never have to install a MS server again. Since then, I've installed -and maintain- about twenty of them. The happiest server owners you'll ever meet!
Regarding desktops, when one of them has to be taken behind the shed, but runs vintage software the company can't allow itself to rewrite/repurchase, there are several options, including virtual machines and dual boot+ heavy firewalling of the Windows installation, so as to access only, e.g. game servers or Autodesk's cloudy karp. Legality? You have a valid Windows license, you are in the clear.
Regarding hardware support, I've done this a few times to allow customers to use old stuff -big format scanners and plotters. For some of them there are open source drivers that can [communicate with]/[emulate] almost anything. In the worst case you can buy an ElCheapo Chinese comms board -Ej, SCSI or Serial interfaces. Agreed it can be a hit or miss thing, but those boards are nowadays so cheap that if one of them doesn't perform as expected you can either absorb the cost or send it back and buy a different one.
My point is that thanks to Linux, lots of people can keep using their old stuff, sometimes for decades. It takes a little bit of time and effort, but it usually ends up working well. Of course you don't do this for a cheap personal devices like A4 scanners or laser printers.
Sorry for this brick of a comment! 8^)
* In reality, its equivalence in the European national coins of that era.
@Patrician - I don't know what scenarios you have in mind that require using the command line in Linux, but I wouldn't use Linux if I had to keep going to the command line for everyday stuff, and I most certainly wouldn't reccomend it to friends if that were so. And yet I do use it every day at home, and have reccomended it to friends, most of whom are still using it. And I'm closer to being a user than a tecchie than most that frequent these forums.
Even with the UI, I find Linux easier to use than Windows (At home, I'm a long-term Xfce user, but can live with MATE or Cinammon. At work it's Windows 7). The WIndows Control centre is , to this user, an unintuitive mess, despite having had to use Windows at work since it came out, and using it at home for about four years when Win98 came out.
Sure Linux has its faults, but for the average user it's a damned sight easier to use and less hassle than Windows is, in my experience. I've had little problem with printers, webcams and graphics cards for years now. (I actually cannot recall the last time any hardware I wanted to use didn't just work once connected). As for the command line - what in gods name are you DOING with it?! You dont need it to start and close browsers, office software, games, media players - you don't even need it to install or remove software.
Of course, YMMV depending on what kit you have/buy/want to connect, but honestly, the non-tecchies I've introduced to Linux are happy as a wossname with it, and wouldn't countence having to mess with the command line at all. And Linux wins hands down on value, of course. (In the dim mists of time I have bought both Mandrake Linux and SuSe with support, but more to give back something to teh creators of the distros, as it turned out it worked so well I didn't need support). (shrugs. sorry, but to imply that Linux isn't suitable for non-tecchies 'because command line' just is not true for the vast majority of users, IMO.
"many companies still have legacy software that will only run in Windows"
I don't think this is true anymore. It certainly was true 15 years ago. Most of the major and minor apps today are web based. SAP, Oracle, Google Apps, Salesforce, Workday, most of Adobe's stuff, Marketo, etc runs via a browser. Even MSFT is moving their apps to the browser. There are a handful of thick client apps in organizations, but it is no big deal to use XenApp or whatever to virtualize them on the server. It is totally possible to do away with Windows... most large IT orgs just enjoy doing what they have been doing. Not comfortable with change. IT orgs have really bad incentive systems... SLAs. They are rewarded for nothing bad happening, but not so much for something good happening. If the CRM which everyone hates has good uptime, that is their SLA met.... It all needs to change.
and/or the interface looks like it was created in 1995.
Yes, that flat UI look is just so 1991MODERN!
Not to mention the number of times it's necessary to drop to command line in Linux to carry out operations that in Windows can be done by a few mouse clicks;
What, like when windows update yet again screws your networking hardware and you need powershell to get it working again? Oh wait, windoze again.
I'm trying to think of a situation where a normal user would have a need to go to CLI, but I can't. I do often for running things like updates (which take a few minutes, not hours of "please wait while windows installs updates" when trying to shut down/restart - FFS that shit should've been written out more than 20 years ago!). Nope, can't think of one. But Windows, however... Seems common to need to use command/power shell to fix things.
Oh, and there's the wonderful "the drive where windows is installed is locked" problem, or the even more totally retarded needing to have a perfectly functioning system to be able to bring up safe-mode etc, rather than being able to do that stuff from a menu when the system is broken. You know, like when you actually need it.
When you want to complain about Linux, please wait until this totally ridiculous shit in MS's crap is fixed. It only makes you look like an idiot to support them over a better system when so much idiocy reigns supreme. (hoped this had improved since I last looked but no, still stupid beyond belief).
As to "lack of hardware support", again, get with reality! I don't have to spend hours hunting for drivers on Linux, hoping the site isn't going to give me something nasty. I plug a device in, it works. Has been a very long time since I had to find drivers for Linux. Not with Windows, no, not easy to get hardware working with that.
This is so to the point. Think about it, MS sold end user OS for that log, how many countless billions did they earn with it ?. Nobody knows, except they did not invest much of it in improving the quality of their products. But why should they, they have a monopoly, together with Intel they are still able to squeeze as much they want out of the consumer as they want (yeah Intel, why can i not buy a nice upgrade CPU for a 4 yo laptop that costs $50,- instead of more than a new laptop ?). Like AT&T and IBM in the 70's, MS should have been subjected to effective anti-trust litigation, but nothing was done, except tipping off some "fines". What should have been done is that MS was obliged to sell the source code of Windows to any company interested in developing products based on this, like IBM had to give interface specifications to competitors so they could make IBM 370 plug compatibles. If that had been done 10 years ago, we would have a better desktop OS for a lower price, and no single vendor policy for governments wanting to peek into the computers of their citizens.
Someone I know who is running their own business (total employees: one) balked at the idea of Win8 when they saw it in the flesh. They eventually settled on a large Samsung Galaxy android tablet, with a wireless keyboard and mouse. He said When MSFT start being sensible again I'll switch back but I don't see that happening anytime soon.
Someone I know who is running their own business (total employees: one) balked at the idea of Win8 when they saw it in the flesh. They eventually settled on a large Samsung Galaxy android tablet, with a wireless keyboard and mouse
Why not have stayed with Win 7??
Windows 10 has a nasty habit of disabling/uninstalling things it does not like.
For example, I downloaded a driver for a HP computer straight from HP's website. Windows 10 said it was not compatible (or maybe it said it was a security risk?) and would not run the installer. There were no clear instructions on what do if this was a false positive (which it was). With a bit of Googling, I run a command prompt as an admin, and the driver installed successfully.
Another example. Windows 10 uninstalled Classic Shell 4.2.5 after an update.
Yet another example. I had an old version of CCleaner which Windows 10 said was no longer compatible. I changed the file name to xyz.exe and it ran just fine.
After CCleaner, I sent a feedback message complaining about this. I essentially ask them who gave them the right to determine which program is or is not compatible. I made sure to use the word "program" and I made sure to tell them that when I renamed the file, everything worked perfectly. Like my requests for Aero, a working preboot F8, a full backup program, a logical hierarchy based start menu, and respect for my private life, I know the feedback will be ignored. Microsoft claims they are listening, but only feedback which says "good job" is listened to. What us paying customers actually want is burned with the ashes thrown in a safe and the safe hurled into the deepest part of the ocean.
But I am a sucker, and I keep sending feedback. And I keep telling them that it is their constant douchebaggery is the reason why my primary will be Windows 7 until 2020 and then Linux Mint after that.
"Like my requests for Aero, a working preboot F8, a full backup program, a logical hierarchy based start menu, and respect for my private life, I know the feedback will be ignored. Microsoft claims they are listening, but only feedback which says "good job" is listened to."
What about feedback that says, "I'm talking with lawyers."?
Sadly these days MS seems to be responding, "our lawyers are more expensive than your lawyers, and we can afford to keep them busy for the rest of eternity".
Doesn't mean they win, but they do seem prepared to go to court against their users!!!!! Customer Relationship Management at its finest...
"our lawyers are more expensive than your lawyers"
At some point that will change to:
"our lawyers are more expensive than your government's lawyers"
Whether that's because what MS are doing is criminal (unauthorised modification of a computer system) or upsets a competition regulator.
MS will still have better lawyers and the damage will be long gone but it will be a fairer fight.
F8 can come back if you want it to, I do occasionally notice it's admission. Of course if you fail the boot (I think) 5 times you get a menu allowing safe mode:
http://www.thewindowsclub.com/safe-mode-in-windows-8
Windows backup is pretty good these days as are the many free and paid for alternatives.
As opposed to the hierarchical menu the majority of users find the search quicker in my experience nearly all the time. YMMV. The program listing is still there although it is flat. Even Linux changes, after all Ubuntu is returning to Gnome.
F8 can come back if you want it to, I do occasionally notice it's admission. Of course if you fail the boot (I think) 5 times you get a menu allowing safe mode:
Still pretty useless when you run into "the drive where windows is installed is locked. Please unlock the drive...."
Apparently still the only way to fix is to wipe the disk and start again (didn't get to try with the one friend who I care about enough to even service W10, he said he spent several days chasing up help and the only thing he could find was "wipe+reinstall". Thankfully he backs up his personal data.
Windows backup is pretty good these days as are the many free and paid for alternatives.
No. Up until Win 7, Windows backup was good. Now it's foul beyond belief, and that's just with the garbage in 8.1 (recently tried to do a backup on an Uncle's machine before trying him on Linux - now know I didn't need to as he loves Linux and wouldn't know if Windows still works or not)
Like my requests for Aero, a working preboot F8, a full backup program, a logical hierarchy based start menu, and respect for my private life, I know the feedback will be ignored. Microsoft claims they are listening, but only feedback which says "good job" is listened to.
Microsoft is the Donald Trump of the software world.
We already know that Microsoft uses the relatively benign phrase "not supported" (as in "Windows 7 is not supported on Kaby Lake and Ryzen") when they really mean something much more sinister, like "we don't care if it works, we're going to sabotage it."
With that in mind, "not compatible" probably means exactly the same thing.
It doesn't seem like Microsoft really has any specific competitive reason to block Kaspersky. Defender doesn't make MS any money... it's an antimalware program of last resort, something to fill the gap if the user doesn't provide something else. It's not like Internet Explorer, where MS hoped to leverage their browser dominance to push proprietary WWW extensions and sell more Frontpage and IIS server packages that supported those extensions.
Similarly, there's no great reason for MS to remove things like Speccy, Classic Shell, or CCleaner. They don't have competing products for any of those things.
To me, these seemingly random uninstallations, along with the unwanted download/installation of apps (and other assorted things) seem to be a display of MS marking its territory. Your formerly personal computer is now Microsoft's territory, and MS wants to make damn sure you are aware of it. For now, they're removing stuff that MS doesn't have a direct competitor for... once people have gotten used to MS removing stuff and accepted it as the new normal, who knows?
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