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UK ministers to push anti-encryption laws after election

Anonymous Coward

Clueless govt...

Wow first post!

The clue stick simply isn't working with the government, I'm struggling to understand how they keep pushing this agenda when anyone with a modicum of intelligence understands it will never work.

You can push as much legislation as you like, terrorists etc will ignore the legislation, that really unfair, that terrorists won't play by the rules, its just not British.

The US companies will simply ignore the legislation as they will consider themselves outside of UK legislation.

UK companies will have to make two versions of their products and might as well throw away all security for the UK version as basically the UK govt says it wants to rape and pillage your data, however nobody will ever trust a UK technical product as the correct assumption is that its now 100% insecure.

There will be leaks galore as people use it to check on straying partners, the keys will get lost as somebody loses the USB stick with them on or the latest malware rips them off.

Does anybody in the govt have the slightest understanding of what they are asking or are they so far up the Daily Mail's backside that they can no longer see or hear?

Not a single technical expert has said this is a sensible, every one has said back doors to encryption is flawed yet the loony right still push this agenda.

Time to leave this little country with its little politicians and find somewhere with a bit more freedom, I hear North Korea is more enlightened these days.

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Re: Clueless govt...

You sound surprised that they haven't thought this through or allowed for the fact that criminals and terrorists by their very nature will continue to break the law. It' just the nature of the "we can't be seen to be doing nothing" government we have. I hope that the general populace see through it and cause a stink like they did with the money grab for elderly care and they U turn.

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Re: Clueless govt...

It is baffling. How difficult do they think it is to write an encrypted server-less communication platform. Its well documented how to do this stuff. The terrorists will just roll their own, stick it on BitTorrent for anyone to use and the law is instantly unenforceable.

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Re: Clueless govt...

You can write any kind of app you want. The government expects you to design in the capability to intercept everything though so when they do ask you for the data they want you can give it to them, otherwise you'll be on the wrong end of legal action.

But nothing is banned. Not that, oh no.

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Re: Clueless govt...

They are not clueles, and these laws are obviously not for terrorists, but to control and manipulate the general population..and it works. The poor vote the tories...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Clueless govt...

Labour making a come back I hear, many of the poor plan on voting Labour now

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Re: Clueless govt...

People can downvote that all they want, mate, but the fact of the matter is that you're right. Labour are making gains and May...sorry, I mean the Conservatives, are losing points rapidly. The gap is thinning.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2017/may/08/general-election-2017-poll-tracker-who-is-in-the-lead

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Clueless govt...

I also agree some on here say they hate May but also say they wont vote because everyone else will vote Tory when that not true... I wonder sometime if some people on here secretly want May to win and take are freedoms away.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Clueless govt...

"Labour making a come back I hear, [...]"

Unfortunately they will do the same as May on this issue. Their new support is down to the perceived self-interest of segments of the electorate. Labour have not opposed this sort of thing in the past. They have previously proposed even bigger inroads into human rights eg 90 day detention without trial and ID cards.

The fact that the Labour leadership is now "left wing" rather than "centre-right" will probably increase the tendency to totalitarian measures. Idealists who have long thirsted for the levers of power soon get frustrated when their aims are being opposed by "reactionaries". The leadership is likely to resort to the position on many issues with "the end justifies the means".

Given the way the FPTP system operates then a hung Parliament is not unthinkable.

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MJI
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Re: Clueless govt...

May party - want our data.

Labour - want our data.

I know how I am voting now, and it is not those two.

Theresa May is the reason I will not vote for her party. Both Corbyn and the previous ID cards shite for his.

Better say it again.

I prefered Cameron, Milliband and Clegg to May, Corbyn and Farron.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Clueless govt...

"Labour making a come back I hear"

Do you think Labour's attitude towards encryption and privacy would be any different? Their past record suggests otherwise. This goes beyond party politics. It's the people pulling strings behind the scenes you should worry about. They stay the same whatever party is elected.

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Re: Clueless govt...

"This goes beyond party politics"

can't argue with that PoV. Problem is that the only party saying they would dismantle the surveillance state is the LibDems and they've got zero chance and zero influence. If they had a chance, I'd vote for them in a heartbeat.

I'm pinning hope that Corbyn is more likely to listen to sense, reason, expertise and public opinion than May is.

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Re: Clueless govt...

At least Corbyn engages with people, rather than hiding in an ivory tower.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Clueless govt...

yes, I do believe that the gov folks, aka, our masters, are not clueless, in this sense, that they - as always - have been sold on the idea that "we can't be retroactive now, look at all this stuff, we need to be ahead of the game!" With total control over communications and surveillence drones silently monitoring everyone, look, we can prevent... ANYTHING.

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Unhappy

"I know how I am voting now, and it is not those two."

Did you vote on the referendum for proportional representation? If you did how did you vote?

If you didn't vote, or voted for BAU, these are your options.

If you're happy with your MP, vote for them, to block others replacing them.

If not vote for the first runner up party from last time. Doesn't matter who they are. They have the best shot of getting rid of your sitting tenant.

Those are your options in a first-past-the-post system. A system the UK shares with all these fine nations. fine nations. although not with any part of Europe.

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Re: Clueless govt...

A hung parliament would be a good thing, but it won't happen. The FPTP gerrymandered constituency system used to elect MPs to Westminster will ensure a right of centre government, it'll almost certainly be a Conservative one.

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Re: "I know how I am voting now, and it is not those two."

That was just a sop to "reactionaries". The choice was FPTP or the worst and most complicated version of PR and almost every media piece about it was to tell the voters just how bad it would be under the PR system proposed.

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Re: Clueless govt...

@Bernard M. Orwell

"If they had a chance, I'd vote for them in a heartbeat. I'm pinning hope that Corbyn is more likely to listen to sense, reason, expertise and public opinion"

The trouble is that public opinion, as evidenced by your vote for him, would be saying that Corbyn has the right answers. I think you're much better off voting for someone who actually reflects your views. Look at what votes for UKIP have done, despite them being almost as far from a parliamentary majority as it's possible to be.

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Re: Clueless govt...

"Given the way the FPTP system operates then a hung Parliament is not unthinkable."

A hung Parliament is eminently thinkable. Farron, unfortunately, has been stupid enough to rule out a coalition in advance. A LibDem participation in a coalition is about the only thing that would stop this nonsense as Labour would do the same. I suppose just possibly a very slim majority might result in a change in PM - if May finds herself weakened Hammond would probably move next door.

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Re: Clueless govt...

"If they had a chance, I'd vote for them in a heartbeat."

Then do so for two reasons.

Firstly in pretty well every election the number of people who don't bother voting is greater than the majority and if those not voting do so because their choice "hasn't a chance" that attitude becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Give them that chance. Vote.

Secondly, although they don't stand a chance of forming a government they do, in the event of a hung Parliament, stand a chance of exerting a degree of control. They would have influence. All it takes is people like you to vote for them.

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Re: Clueless govt...

"A hung parliament would be a good thing, but it won't happen."

You clearly have a very weak grasp of recent history.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Clueless govt...

I've worked extensively throughout Scandinavia, but have been in the UK the past five years.

Scotland seems to have the right idea of progression towards autonomy with the Nordics and Scandinavia.

On the World Press Freedom index Norway, Sweden and numerous other progressive countries are top of the list. The UK has slipped from 34 to 38 to 40 in the past few years.

Why do people continue to vote in parties that progress these views?

I *SERIOUSLY* doubt the current Labour group want this invasion of privacy and communications. By our Scandinavian standards Corybn and Labour are NOT 'communist' - they are standard social democrat and are currently in power throughout the Nordics and Scandinavia! (There is a different in these terminologies, by the way, which is why I must mention both.)

Why not aim after the most equal (least income inequality) and surveyed happiness countries in the world?

WHY DOES THE UK WISH TO COPY AMERICA?!?!?! It makes zero sense for your normal low to middle earning individual. America has amongst the highest income inequality in the world, with certain areas on-par with African countries for child poverty and lack of education.

Wake up England!

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Unhappy

"the way the FPTP system operates then a hung Parliament is not unthinkable."

Which worked quite well but this time round it's unlikely the LibDems will be in any position to put a brake on them.

Britain. The only country in Europe with a FPTP system.

Apparently its believed to be the only system simple enough for the British electorate to understand.

And when asked the British electorate agreed. "We are too lazy and ignorant to understand anything more complex, except for local authority elections, which we can understand."

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Re: Clueless govt...

"I *SERIOUSLY* doubt the current Labour group want this invasion of privacy and communications."

Presumably you were in Scandinavia at the time but they have past form on this.

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Re: "I know how I am voting now, and it is not those two."

Can we please stop calling our system 'First past the Post' It isn't; there is no post.

The phrase FPTP gives a nice fuzzy feeling of an outright winner adding legitimacy to the winner as if they are all in an evenly matched game, like an Olympic 100m sprint race,

Our system should more accurately be called 'Furthest From The Start' or FFTS. (FFS for short ??) You win as long your pile of votes is one more than the next candidate,irrespective of the absolute size of the piles, and even if the sum total of all other votes massively outnumbers yours.

No quorom, No defined second choice.. grrrr.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Clueless govt...

That was the tory-style 'New Labour'. The current crew are completely different, that you can be sure of. You would at least agree there is a huge chance they are different, surely?

LibDems are a wasted vote in this election. I really hope the tories don't get in, or if they do then a tiny majority.

I trust Corbyn more than any other politician, except the SNP group. They seem to be genuinely concerned for the middle and lower classes (if you believe in the concept of class anymore.)

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Clueless govt...

it wont be a Conservative one

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Paris Hilton

Re: Clueless govt...

"UK companies will have to make two versions of their products and might as well throw away all security for the UK version as basically the UK govt says it wants to rape and pillage your data, however nobody will ever trust a UK technical product as the correct assumption is that its now 100% insecure."

Hmm. So if someone resident in the UK has a non-locked down client device, what's stopping them from buying or otherwise acquiring and using the non-UK Govt approved application and using it?

Like um pgp in the early 1990's. Don't they learn from failed historical examples ?

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Re: "the way the FPTP system operates then a hung Parliament is not unthinkable."

'And when asked the British electorate agreed. "We are too lazy and ignorant to understand anything more complex, except for local authority elections, which we can understand."'

Actually only 28% of the electorate liked FPTP enough to bother voting for it. 58% of British voters apparently don't care what the electoral system is, and presumably would be equally happy with FPTP or AV.

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Re: Clueless govt...

"I think you're much better off voting for someone who actually reflects your views."

This! Many people seem to forget they are voting for their local MP to represent them in Parliament. This could mean voting for a party you don't like if their local candidate happens to not agree with everything their party stands for and happens to agree with you, the voter while the other candidates, even if from "your" party, may not hold your views. Voters need to know who they are voting for, not just what colour rosette they are wearing and who their current leader is before casting their vote.

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Unhappy

"No quorom, No defined second choice.. grrrr."

Quite true.

And hence the perfect plan for a Brexit referendum as well.

Indeed this system ensures someone gets elected even if only one voter turns up (and if it's the right borough and the voter is "Mr E. Blackadder" they may also be the only voter).

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Unhappy

"LibDems are a wasted vote in this election. "

Except in the 63 constituencies where they were 2nd place. here

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Re: Clueless govt...

Oh yeah, because Labour would be so much better. From their manifesto:

We will always provide our security agencies with the resources and the powers they need to protect our country and keep us all safe.

Granted, there follows some bromide about preserving civil liberties, but you know what? - the Tories have that too.

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Re: Clueless govt...

The reality of encryption to date is that rolling your own [always] leads to practical attacks on it immediately. So, in a real sense, it makes it even easier for the security services to identify those communications that may be of interest and easily crack them using a small portion of their data centers resources.

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Holmes

Re: Clueless govt...

Problem is that the only party saying they would dismantle the surveillance state is the LibDems and they've got zero chance and zero influence. If they had a chance, I'd vote for them in a heartbeat.

I'd be willing to bet that there's at least 100,000 people in the UK who think along those lines. People who will throw away their vote either by not voting, or by voting for a party they don't really want to vote for.

What do you think would be the result if every one who prefers LibDems policies actually voted for them? Instead of voting for bigparty despite not liking them, vote for smallparty because you like them. Even if they don't win this year, more support this year makes them more noticeable if/when the next election hits.

And you still have some days. What are you waiting for? Get out and educate as many as you can as best as you can about what is going on, and who is promising to reverse things.

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Re: Clueless govt...

communications that may be of interest and easily crack them

gpg and steganography would not make this at all easy - how long does it take to crack a gpg-encrypted message with a very long keylength?

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Unhappy

"almost every media piece.. to tell the voters..how bad it would be under the PR system proposed."

With PR the devil has always been in the details. I suspect there are several PhDs to be written on the them of what would be a "fair" PR system.

At the very least it should give any MP elected a much cleared mandate. I think it would be great for an MP to know that more than 50% of the active voters (IE those who voted) find them acceptable, even if they were not those voters first choice.

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A backdoor is a backdoor for all

As shown by the NSA exploits, backdoors will not just be used by 'the good guys' surely we can get that across to Joe public given the recent Wanacry publicity?

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Joke

Re: A backdoor is a backdoor for all

But don't you see? Surely the biggest problem with Wanacry was the fact that it used encryption! Therefore, if they outlaw encryption, they'll be making everyone safer.

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Unhappy

Should be

A backdoor for one is a backdoor for all.

FTFY.

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Good idea!

About time the state came clean about it's desire to establish the "Police" variety of state on us all.

Of course misses the blindingly obvious that if GCHQ does not have sufficient processing power to break the encryption, what chance our useless ISP's?

Perhaps Teresa Mayhem et al need a reality check on what is actually feasible before such knee jerk legislation.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Good idea!

Perhaps Teresa Mayhem et al need a reality check on what is actually feasible before such knee jerk legislation.

Should we expect more from somebody with a degree in geography?

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Re: Good idea!

They don't want to break anyone's encryption, they want to be able to view anyone's profile in near realtime via backdoor.

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Re: Good idea!

Perhaps Teresa Mayhem et al need a reality check on what is actually feasible before such knee jerk legislation.

What makes you think that a dictator wannabe with delusions of grandure can be influenced by a reality check. Bonus points for Vicar Offspring.

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Re: Good idea!

"They don't want to break anyone's encryption, they want to be able to view anyone's profile in near realtime via backdoor."

Backdoor = Broken encryption.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Good idea!

"Should we expect more from somebody with a degree in geography?"

At least it was a proper science rather than the usual PPE.

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WTF?

"Should we expect more from somebody with a degree in geography?"

May's degree is PPE.

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The encryption horse is free

shutting the stable door now won't get it back.

No encryption means no use of the internet to fill in tax returns, VAT forms, No internet banking. No ordering things online because you can't make payments in a secure manner.

It could mean no ATM's (they are all connected to the internet these days)

and no funds transfer between banks thus forcing Companies having to pay workers in Cash again.

etc

etc

Then there are the plethora of VPN's use by companies to allow their staff to work while on the move..

As usual, the civil servants are too timid to point this out to their political masters (Yes Minister!)

Back in the 1990's, France banned Encryption apart from banking use.

but sorry the encryption Horse has bolted and this move won't get it back in the stable.

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Black Helicopters

Re: The encryption horse is free

As usual, the civil servants are too timid to point this out to their political masters (Yes Minister!)

If every home secretary for the past 20 years or so ends up crossing over to the dark side, I can only conclude that it's the civil servants that are pushing it. The only respite we got was with the Lib Dems from 2010-2015.

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Re: The encryption horse is free

"No encryption means..."

Nobody is proposing no encryption. Not even an unnamed source in a dodgy newspaper just before an election. There's enough to be worried about here without making up ghosts.

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