back to article 30,000 London gun owners hit by Met Police 'data breach'

London gun owners are asking questions of the Metropolitan Police after the force seemingly handed the addresses of 30,000 firearm and shotgun owners to a direct mail marketing agency for a commercial firm's advertising campaign. The first any of the affected people knew about the blunder was when the leaflet (pictured below) …

  1. rh587

    Breach? Interesting choice of words. I suppose breach of trust, but not quite what we might think of as a "breach" (e.g. the TalkTalk hack). It's not much of a breach if they deliberately give the data away!

    I suspect they're going to plead innocence under the very Data Protection statement mentioned in the article:

    my GP, other government departments, regulatory bodies or enforcement agencies in the course of either deciding the application or in pursuance of maintaining public safety

    MetTrace (clearly branded on the leaflet) is the Met's anti-burglary programme, and they'll say they were targeting firearm owners as a high-risk group of potential burglary victims - thus a high priority for public safety projects. The Firearms Team will say they only gave it to another division of the Met for an approved purpose and didn't know it was going to be sent to a third party for the mail-outs.

    Of course, the fact that the Met already have a list of every firearm on their patch including a description and serial number is besides the point! You don't need smartwater to figure out where a recovered firearm has been stolen from!

    1. Commswonk
      FAIL

      The Firearms Team will say they only gave it to another division of the Met for an approved purpose and didn't know it was going to be sent to a third party for the mail-outs.

      They very well might say that, but it prompts the question "approved by whom". I wouldn't mind betting that the approval process didn't involve a Data Controller; if it did then there ought to be a vacancy for such a post before long.

      While referring FAC (or SGC) applications to the applicant's GP is perhaps understandable (to find out if there are any "health" reasons why a certificate should not be granted) there remains a concern in the shooting fraternity that a marker on medical records at a GP's surgery is itself a security risk, given that all and sundry within the practice have access to the records and there is no means of knowing if any of them might be tempted to pass the information to others who might make malicious use of it. Needless to say these concerns have been ignored.

      By any standards this looks like an epic blunder on the part of the MET, but I'd be astonished (and pleased!) if any meaningful disciplinary action resulted. In one sense it doesn't really matter; the damage has been done and cannot now be undone.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      It's not much of a breach if they deliberately give the data away!

      Gave? I rather suspect sold is a more appropriate word.

    3. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: Breach? Interesting choice of words.

      Agree, the article provides no evidence of a breach.

      I suggest that what has happened is that the Met Police have distributed a leaflet, by post in a plain envelope(?) to some (or all) holders of firearms within their area. With the envelope carrying a return address of YDM - I assume the PO Box or reference is unique to the MetPolice.

      One side of the leaflet is simply an official reminder about key contact details and the other an advert for a MetPolice service that uses SmartWater. Thus SmartWater has had no sight of the full distribution list.

      The only questionable aspects of this leaflet distribution are:

      1) Owners available themselves of the SmartWater service by responding directly to smartwater.co.uk and not to the MetPolice.

      2) Have YDM been cleared to receive and handle confidential information.

      3) Who actually addressed the envelopes and when (ie. before or after the envelopes being stuffed and sealed): The Metpolice or YDM and hence who actually had sight of the full distribution list and the nature of the contents and thus could put two-and-two together.

    4. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      "the Met already have a list of every legally held firearm on their patch including a description and serial number"

      In addition to marking individual items it's possible that the material could be a contact trace material which could be used to identify anyone who'd come into contact with it. I went to their website to check this and guess what - there's no mention of this mailing in their "news".

  2. EnviableOne

    Its all in the interpretation

    "in pursuance of maintaining public safety or the peace" is so vague, that this and almost anything else can be justified by it.

    1. Richard 26

      Re: Its all in the interpretation

      "in pursuance of maintaining public safety or the peace" is so vague, that this and almost anything else can be justified by it.

      Perhaps. It's still a private company though and despite the italicization, no reasonable person would parse the sentence that way.

    2. Commswonk
      Unhappy

      Re: Its all in the interpretation

      "in pursuance of maintaining public safety or the peace" is so vague, that this and almost anything else can be justified by it.

      Try as I might I cannot see how public safety is in any way "maintained" by handing out bulk details of perfectly legal firearms owners to people who have no business having it. It has increased the risk to public safety because the opportunities for theft have now been increased.

      As a "justification" for the action it seems incredibly flimsy.

  3. noddybollock
    Facepalm

    So now the DB info will be in at least 3 places,@ the MET, the agency and Smartwaters

    oh and probably on someones USB stick ---- well I hope they didn't email it to a yahoo acount!!

    1. rh587

      oh and probably on someones USB stick ---- well I hope they didn't email it to a yahoo acount!!

      Nah, but when someone from YBM is summoned down to London from Leeds tomorrow, they'll be sure to leave it on the train!

  4. Your alien overlord - fear me

    Everyone is talking about the breach. What about the numbers? Why are the 25,000 shotguns in London? How many have shortened barrels and live in the back of Ford Transits?

    1. codejunky Silver badge

      @ Your alien overlord - fear me

      "Why are the 25,000 shotguns in London?"

      Why not?

    2. phuzz Silver badge

      I'm not sure where in London you could fire a gun and not run the risk of shooting someone, or at least their property. Exactly what's the use of a shotgun in London?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        and your point is? where in the UK can you drive faster than 70mph but many people have cars that will do at least twice that. Many people who live in London and shoot will pop off to the country side etc or to a local range to shoot their firearm

      2. Spacedinvader

        Quite a few places actually

        all you had to do was search...

        https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=london+shotgun+range&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&ei=3of3WPnLDsXW8ge54K2gAg#q=london+shotgun+range&rflfq=1&rlha=0&rllag=51561451,-158061,12890&tbm=lcl&tbs=lrf:!2m1!1e2!2m1!1e3!3sEAE,lf:1,lf_ui:1

      3. cwh

        plenty of places to shoot around London - e.g.

        https://www.a1sg.co.uk/

        http://www.bisleyshooting.co.uk/

        http://www.shootingschool.co.uk/

        etc

      4. rh587

        I'm not sure where in London you could fire a gun and not run the risk of shooting someone, or at least their property. Exactly what's the use of a shotgun in London?

        Woolwich Barracks apparently - seeing as that's where they held the Olympic Shooting (yes, shooting is an Olympic sport).

        Or any one of these clay pigeon sites listed by Spacedinvader (there are a few rifle clubs as well).

    3. Michael B.

      I wonder how many of these are actually re-enactment weapons as I believe they require shotgun licenses. ( At least that was what one of them told me when he broke character at a bank holiday event.)

    4. tiggity Silver badge

      Probably lots of people who live in London briefly go up North to moors etc and shoot mass produced (grouse, pheasant, partridge all intensively reared in huge numbers to be shot ) birds at high prices.

      So need their guns registered.

      I doubt the likes of Big Vern will have theirs registered

      It is trivially easy to get a shotgun licence, the "sport" of annihilating farmed birds is a big earner & so if you claim are a "sporting" gun user (no matter how occasionally) then pretty much job done on the licence.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        "Probably lots of people who live in London briefly go up North to moors etc and shoot mass produced (grouse, pheasant, partridge all intensively reared in huge numbers to be shot ) birds at high prices."

        And clay pigeons although there's not much meat on those.

        Pheasant seem to rear themselves in large numbers round here.

    5. Commswonk

      What about the numbers? Why are the 25,000 shotguns in London? How many have shortened barrels and live in the back of Ford Transits?

      Although I suspect that you are just being mischievous you might care to note that shortening the barrel of a shotgun is a specific offence; it can be done by a (registered) gunsmith in carrying out a repair but otherwise its a complete no - no. You might also care to note that getting an SGC or FAC is incredibly difficult if you have any hint of criminality in your record.

      As to What about the numbers the most significant one would be the incidence of theft of legally held firearms, which I believe is incredibly low. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but AFAIK it is not a significant problem in the grand scheme of things.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "You might also care to note that getting an SGC or FAC is incredibly difficult if you have any hint of criminality in your record"

        As a Scout Leader in the past I've been required to get signed statements from parents to confirm that their 11-14 year-old sons did not have criminal records so that they were legally allowed to handle an air rifle when we had a target shooting actiivity.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          I think someone has spun you a line there. You don't need any license to use a air weapon so having a criminal record doesn't stop you from owning one.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        You might also care to note that getting an SGC or FAC is incredibly difficult if you have any hint of criminality in your record.

        Funnily enough, that doesn't seem to stop the crims getting access to guns if they want them.

        1. Adam 52 Silver badge

          It does. Criminal gun possession in the UK, whist becoming more prevalent, is still rare and those guns themselves aren't state of the art. That is partly because it is so hard to get hold of a gun and partly because we have a culture of our criminals not using guns, which itself is a positive feedback cycle with high sentencing for gun crime.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            "Criminal gun possession in the UK, whist becoming more prevalent, is still rare and those guns themselves aren't state of the art."

            I don't think that the gun's not being state of the art is much consolation if you're shot.

            As usual statistics can be made to tell all sorts of tales. The statistics at http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:iWHqAwnJi7UJ:http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7654/CBP-7654.pdf%2Bgun+crime+statistics&cr=countryUK|countryGB&complete=0&hl=en-GB&gbv=1&tbs=ctr:countryUK|countryGB&ct=clnk#9

            show an impressive decline in offences. However the start date of this table avoids the even more impressive rise before that in the figure here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6960431.stm

  5. td0s

    A Blunder(bus)

    That someone would rifle through such a database, then take such a shotgun approach to marketing. I would at least expect some specific targetting. I would say this was a powder keg, with a hair trigger, once the ICO gets up in arms.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Guns don't kill people...

    Rappers Do...

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    so sure you got your gun secured in a truly safe and secure manner

    but now idiots are breaking into your place thinking they get an awesome score. Sure they don't get away with the gun but hey, you got insurance, right? Or do you after a couple attempts?

    nevermind the repeats where they know the gun is secured, so know they don't have to worry about getting shot if you're home when next they come a'callin.

    but gun owners "deserve it" will be the "final" response if I know this place and it's Bay Area Bubble American branch.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: so sure you got your gun secured in a truly safe and secure manner

      >but gun owners "deserve it" will be the "final" response if I know this place and it's Bay Area Bubble American branch.<

      Yes, the Left has a lot to answer for, but sadly not a lot to answer WITH!

  8. Captain Badmouth
    Big Brother

    Evening all...

    Nice little back'ander for somebody.

    Quis custodiet eh?

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Now now...

    The theives store their weapons more securely than legitimate owners. They're stashed in other peoples cabinets.

    Seriously though, im astonished at the number of people that own guns...why?

    Ive never been tempted to own a gun...seems outlandish and abstract to me.

    You can't tell me "home defense" if you have to keep the thing locked up.

    1. smudge

      Re: Now now...

      Seriously though, im astonished at the number of people that own guns...why?

      Most likely target rifle shooting and clay pigeon shooting. Both perfectly legit - and well controlled - sports. With national HQ just outside London, at Bisley.

    2. Colabroad

      Re: Now now...

      Home defense is absolutely not a valid reason to have a gun in the UK.

      People own guns for hunting and sporting purposes, and sometimes reenactment.

      Bird hunting is still popular, deer hunters are on the decline but might pick up as they're becoming a real pest as the population grows (because less people are hunting them!)

      Target shooting is a hobby, you and I may not enjoy it but others do.

      Reenactors will need a shotgun license for most smoothbore black powder weapons like muskets and cannon, even if they're never used with actual shot, only powder charges.

      All the above have to prove participation in the relevant activities to the police and submit to semi-frequent inspections.

      Most shotguns and rifles will be manually operated with very limited capacity, you're not going to get paranoid survivalists stockpiling AKs and AR-15s with 100 round drum mags.

      1. Sweep

        Re: Now now...

        "they're becoming a real pest as the population grows (because less people are hunting them!)"

        Do you have a source for that?

        I agree that the deer population is growing/ has grown but AFAIK hunting (and I'm talking about hunting/ stalking specifically rather than culling) has little impact on overall deer numbers- bucks are favoured by trophy hunters rather than breeding-age females.

        If you want to reduce deer numbers (and I think we should, they have a serious impact on attempts at regenerating the Caledonian forest) then it would require a large-scale targeted cull, probably indefinitely even if we reintroduced predators (lynx, wolf, bear). This has been known for years but nothing is done as it would cost too much money. The Kiwis basically machine gun them from helicopters but I don't believe that would be acceptable in the UK unfortunately.

        I don't understand why there isn't a large-scale commercial hunt in this country- during the stalking season in parts of the highlands butchers buy venison from the estates very cheaply (it is basically a very tasty byproduct), then sell it over the counter at exorbitant prices (under the counter is a different matter :)).

    3. Terry 6 Silver badge

      Re: Now now...

      In the UK it can pretty much never be "home defence" as a reasonable force rule applies. And shooting people isn't often considered all that reasonable. - at least in the eyes of courts.

      1. noddybollock
        Pint

        Re: "home defence"

        "In the UK it can pretty much never be "home defence" as a reasonable force rule applies"

        Wasn't there a UK farmer that got done a few years ago for shooting some scallywag, then later had a reprieve or some such??

        Edit Ahh here we go (daily fail warning) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-127513/Farmer-shot-intruder-walks-free.html

        Beer.... because I off to da pub

        1. Terry 6 Silver badge

          Re: "home defence"

          According to your article, in the two cases quoted one had a life term reduced to a 5 stretch on appeal and one was released because the circumstances allowed the court to judge his action reasonable - and no one had been killed. . But he was prosecuted. And since the shotgun was, according to the article kept under his bed, I'd assume from what other commentards have said about storage of guns, he was lucky not to be in deep manure for that.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: "home defence"

            > But he was prosecuted.

            At least in my corner of the woods, discharging a firearm against someone will be grounds for at the very least an investigation and most likely a prosecution if there is the slightest doubt about the legality of the action, which there usually is, in terms of its proportionality. It is expected and part of the culture, if you like, that keeps firearms users a responsible bunch.

            Might as well mention, it doesn't matter if you are a private licence holder or a member of the security forces, you will still be filing a report and expecting a visit to the judge.

        2. Gordon Pryra

          Re: "home defence"

          Yeah, but then again he DID shoot the guy in the back as he was running away.

          Hardly self defense :P

          (not saying he didn't deserve it, he did, just the wrong defense was used in court)

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Now now...

        > And shooting people isn't often considered all that reasonable

        Definitely unreasonable. But about shooting AT people?

        1. Terry 6 Silver badge

          Re: Now now...

          Accepted usage for an awful long time is that you shoot both people and guns. But it's a strange one. We'd never say that someone shot a tree, That would be shot at.Yet you do shoot at someone if you miss. Or compare "They shoot horses don't they". And of course we can shoot a video/movie.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Now now...

        Except this is wrong. In part of the United Kingdom - Northern Ireland - Handguns were not banned 20 years ago. Sure some are held for sporting reasons, but over 10000 people in Northern Ireland legally own and carry personal handguns for self-defense including defense at home.

        The 'no criminal record' part also doesn't apply to Northern Ireland. Theres plenty of convicted terrorists who were released as part of the peace process that carry legal handguns in Northern Ireland.

    4. GrumpyKiwi

      Re: Now now...

      Ah yes. The "I don't own a gun, never would and don't see any reason why someone would" person who likes to tell firearms owners just how things should - nay must - be.

      And while we are at it, the head of Marketing doesn't see why we need any of that firewall or anti-virus rubbish that just slows things down and he's an expert because he has an iPad and uses Facebook.

      And a reminder. Prior to both Hungerford and Dunblain the local firearms community had told plod that they were very concerned about the people involved and didn't think they were suitable for a firearms license. Plod of course did... nothing.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Now now...

        ah yes if anyone wants a good read download the Dunblane enquiry. The police get TOTALLY slated in it but of course it was shooters that suffered with more legislation. Rather than any Police officers being taken to task about their total failures to act on information given to them as to the suitability of Thomas Hamilton to own the weapons he did. Legislation was available at the time to try and stop people like Hamilton having a firearm, the Police failed, we did not need more laws, they did not followed the law that existed at the time, if they did their jobs properly the shooting probably wouldn't have happened..

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Now now...

          "it was shooters that suffered with more legislation"

          After which, according to the Beeb article I linked earlier, gun crime rose by a huge amount and by the time of the other link I posted still hadn't been wrestled back down to the earlier level. It was an outstanding example of the unwisdom of knee-jerk legislation.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Now now...

          Needs a very small fix:

          "we did not need more laws, they did not followed the law that existed at the time, if they did their jobs properly the [insert thousands of possibilities] probably wouldn't have happened."

          Drones, for example. We have new specific anti-drone laws, when the existing aviation safety laws which cover drones and safety have hardly been enforced. But you can already get locked up (and rightly so) for shining a torch at an RAF jet, as John Arthur Jones did in 2016 after an extended investigation involving undercover police (who turned out to be known to some of the jurors in the first trial so a retrial was needed?!):

          http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/arrogant-businessman-shone-laser-jets-11898494 (Adblock strongly recommended, as with many such websites)

          I'm sure this will improve now many parts of the UK now have elected Police Crime Commissioners.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Now now...

            we do like to produce law in this country when we already have laws that aren't enforced that do the same as the "new" law. The only reason I can think of is the large numbers of lawyers in parliament making law to keep their still practising friends in work!

    5. rh587

      Re: Now now...

      Seriously though, im astonished at the number of people that own guns...why?

      ...

      You can't tell me "home defense" if you have to keep the thing locked up.

      No indeed. Defence is not considered a good reason to own a firearm.

      - Target sport (up to and including Commonwealth/Olympic Games)

      - Pest control, protection of crops/livestock

      - Game hunting

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Now now...

        > Defence is not considered a good reason to own a firearm.

        In my corner of the EU, defence *is* considered a perfectly good reason to own and carry a firearm, you do not have to provide any reason for requesting the relevant licence category, and provided that you meet the requirements and pass the exams, it is issued.

        In practice, because it just costs a little bit more (and requires an almost perfect score in the tests) most of us apply for it, plus it's less of a hassle when carrying weapons to and from the range. However, I do not know anybody, myself included, who routinely carries a concealed weapon. I do not even own a firearm.

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