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Dishwasher has directory traversal bug

Anonymous Coward

Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

"A dishwasher is a dishwasher, the cheapest model does what the most expensive model does: clean dishes."

A few years ago I replaced my dishwasher as the old one was beyond "economical" repair. Asking friends for recommendations of their proven ones - I discovered that manufacturers change their models every couple of years. On-line reviews were a similar problem - not to mention some of the horror stories.

Finally went for a Siemens as a mid-priced brand used by some friends - and on-line reviews seemed favourable for a specific model.

Every time I use it I wish that I had had the old one repaired. Yes - the new one is quieter and has "eco" features - but it just doesn't clean the dishes reliably. Everything has to be "clean" before it is loaded into the machine otherwise it needs a hand wash afterwards.

I suspect the noise of the old one meant it was spraying the water at a much higher velocity. The "Eco" features also seem to minimise the drying cycle - so that things are still wet at the end.

A microwave oven is an appliance one would expect nowadays to be - well - just a microwave.

I have given up trying to buy a new one. My requirements are obvious - or so I thought: stainless steel cavity; touch timer panel; enough ventilation so that the interior doesn't drip copious amounts of water during cooking. Oh - and no reviews saying "failed after a few weeks" - or - "caught fire".

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Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

Regarding to the "Why do we need that", the question can be answered by googling the actual device. Unless the model number has a typo, this particular device is an industrial grade washer for restaurants or similar places. One selling point is the capacity of over 200 glasses, not exactly a con- or prosumer grade appliance.

I can see a few reasons why a large gastronomy outfit might want a dishwasher that "calls the boss" when it is done or needs attention. There may be more than one of those, the "bing" that signals a finished cycle might be drowned out by ambient kitchen noise etc.

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Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

> Luckily, we don't have smart meters here, yet. But if they do, they won't be joining our home network

That's ok, they don't want to - they handle their own connectivity. The electricity meter obviously has the most power available, so it talks to the mothership, I assume over GSM. I'm told the gas meter is powered by a little turbine spinning in the gas flow, giving it just enough juice to talk Zigbee to the nearby leccy meter. They don't go anywhere near any of my kit, and I get a bill each month for what I actually use rather than the company making up a random number, direct debiting whatever they feel like, and then trying to reconcile a huge discrepency every couple of years.

I expect there's probably some implementation stupids when it comes to switching provider (haven't tried yet) but I'm a fan of the principle.

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Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

" I am not convinced a self loading dishwasher would need an Internet connection."

What if it insists on being given an email address before it will start working?

That Samsung phone* I bought a few years ago wouln't let me in without a Google address.

* now scrapped

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Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

Smart meters will have a 3G+ B2B network connection - hacking your wifi is not the only danger with a device that can tell crooks when you are home and optionally cut you off (or bill you £'000s for unreal electricity as is more likely).

I'm refusing all offers of one at the moment.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

To misquote Edmond Hillary, They are connected to the internet because it (the internet) is there

To quote Jasper Carrott: a dog's bum is there. It doesn't mean you have to go up it.

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Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

The Dutch did a calibration test of current electric smartmeters. One was about 14% pessimistic, but most were up to 550% optimistic (i.e. registered 550% more electricity than was actually used)!

It turns out the smartmeters can't cope with dimmable energy saving lights and LEDs.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

> To misquote Edmond Hillary, They are connected to the internet because it (the internet) is there.

No, it was not Hillary, but George Mallory (q.v.) who when asked why he wanted to climb Everest replied "Because it's there!"

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Windows

Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

"The cheaper models will almost certainly be less power and water efficient, noisier, probably slower, and possibly a bit more crap at actually cleaning"

Generally I'd say no, they aren't. Noisier is very likely but is absolutely relative to the installation, since most come with fairly decent sound proofing and room for improvement. Mostly, the cheaper ones are the stock from last year, the year before, the year before that, and the year before THAT.

<An associate had to do some cabling in a whirlpool warehouse ..... and learned many interesting lessons about large appliances that day.>

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Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

>> and I get a bill each month for what I actually use rather than the company making up a random number, direct debiting whatever they feel like, and then trying to reconcile a huge discrepency every couple of years.

Just make sure you have no LED lighting or dimmer switches in your home. With those devices, some smart meters have been reported to report wildly inaccurate readings. Wildly inaccurate as in 700% higher.

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Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

"Provided I can disassemble it and use wirecutters on the interface " - You clearly haven't read the DCMA small print. That is a deliberate attempt to circumvent the copyright holders rights and could get you 20 years of in the pokey.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

"I get a bill each month for what I actually use rather than the company making up a random number,"

so do i and i don't have a smart meter. I do something really old school i read my meter on the last day of the month and give this reading to the electricity company (online) and they then invoice me correctly for the amount used.

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Mr

Miele to Comcast.

Hey we've noticed a lot of WiFi routers with the Xfinity SSID. We are wiling to pay you x thousands of dollars per year for access to that network.

Comcast to Miele

OK your checked cleared, here is how you access the network.....

Customer installs dishwasher, dishwasher sees Xfinity SSID broadcast by customers neighbor. Dishwasher connects and calls home.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

Please share your experiences...

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Happy

Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

> I already have a THINGS VLAN and a SEWER VLAN for devices

Upvote for the vLAN names.

I'm thinking [1] of writing a firewall module for OpenWRT or similar that can be configured with the details of IoT devices and selectively buggers with their packets. So a connected telly will find that it can download the program guide perfectly, but when it tries to upload viewing statistics the packet contents get randomised, or sent in the wrong order etc.

[1] Which means I'll never find the time to learn how to do it, but I throw the idea out here in case anyone else wants to have a go. :-)

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

"After 30 days being unable to check for software updates it will refuse to run at all. An essential safety feature to keep you safe."

And after another 180 days there will be no more software updates as the next generation model is released.

On the point of phoning home is there any evidence yet of IoT devices that have no functional purpose connecting to internet, bricking because of a lack of internet access?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

"[...] and I get a bill each month for what I actually use rather than the company making up a random number, direct debiting whatever they feel like, and then trying to reconcile a huge discrepency every couple of years."

It doesn't always go smoothly.

"One customer’s £1,900 bill"

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/mar/26/uk-energy-firms-big-six-smart-meter

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

"prosumer"

Wankiest word of the day.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

> No, it was not Hillary, but George Mallory (q.v.) who when asked why he wanted to climb Everest replied "Because it's there!"

Additional I've read that he only gave that reply because while on a pre-exhibition (possibly fund raising) tour of the US he became increasingly fed up by everyone always asking why he wanted to climb Everest

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Silver badge

Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

I already have a THINGS VLAN and a SEWER VLAN for devices that scare me more ('leccy readers eg) than stuff I put on THINGS

Likewise. And I can disable the "things" access to the outside world with one click on the network firewall (hard to reach the internet when your default gateway is no longer responding..)

Although I don't have a sewer vlan. I found it easier to just never connect the things in the first place.

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Silver badge

Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

message you to ask 'have you finished with this half-eaten pork pie?'

"Oh, and by the way, can you call the dog to ask him to stop chewing my power cord? It's giving me a terrible pain in all the FPGAs down my right-hand side"

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

The dutch measurements surely over-dramatized the problem a bit. Nevertheless, some official bods are looking into it: http://goo.gl/a6N4wn

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Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

I just set up a cheap WiFi router with no WAN connection, and connect anything that doesn't need outside world access to that. They can talk to each other all they want.

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Stop

Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

"The next dishwasher that I buy will certainly be connected to the Internet of Things ... because I won't have any choice."

Or rather would like to be....

And while I'm sure there will come a time when it being connected is required by the T&C's I doubt we're quite there yet.

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Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

So how is the electric butler of the electric monk supposed to wash his master's begging bowl without an internet connection to the dishwasher?

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Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

Well, I must be Olde Skool, since my microwave oven has a wind up timer, but I have never seen a dish washer with a wind-up timer. My guess is that Miele simply used a generic Linux controller and the ethernet port and web server is simply for programming and testing it on the production line and isn't actually intended for daily use.

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Facepalm

Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

"but I'm a fan of the principle."

I'm a big fan of the principle where I pop out to my cabinet every couple of weeks and let my supplier know the readings and thus I avail myself of the same no "guesstimate" billing.

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Silver badge

Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

"With the MobileControl function you can keep an eye on your Miele appliance, even when you're not at home - via smart-phone or tablet PC. Not only can you access the programme status, you can also conveniently select and start programmes regardless of location using your mobile terminal device. Simply download the Miele@mobile app and connect the device to Miele@home. When you return home, your Miele appliance has already finished its work. "

It's a pity I'm not in the market for a new dishwasher. I'd have let a salesdroid give that spiel just so I could have asked "Why would I want to?". And then show them my ancient non-Apple, non-Android phone.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

"So why on earth do we need internet enabled dishwashers?"

I can think of one reason: Simpler UI.

In that case, give me a local connection. Bluetooth or something. I have no problem with it talking to ME, but I have a major problem with it talking to the rest of the planet, ditto for any other appliance (and God help the poor sod who wants to come and install a smart meter, because he/she will have to explain why they won't sign for damages payment when it goes wrong - in the presence of some journalists, because I'm mean like that).

A number of people have said that devices are made to sell, not to function. I would like to comment that this sort of uncontrolled crap is the perfect UNsell as far as I'm concerned - no flaming way.

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Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

@AC "prosumer"

Wankiest word of the day.

It's been in use for quite a while. E.g. a video cam that costs $4K (which was what a Panasonic DVX-100B went for new, though today it's called "obsolete"). That's way less than a real pro cam, but almost as good and way more than Uncle Bob will spend to make pictures of the kids.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

Yes. I have noticed that the Eco features in modern appliances screw them up. Manufacturers trade off good performance against getting a extra star on their eco rating.

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Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

"probably some implementation stupids when it comes to switching provider "

You are so right. The stupid is, that if you change provider, the smart meter doesn't work any more. End of.

Apparently they forgot that bit when designing them, probably because the implementation phase goes back to nationalised industries, at which time you couldn't change provider because there was only one.

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Unhappy

Re: "implementation stupids when it comes to switching provider"

@ pete_v

Yep - your "smart meter" reverts back to being a regular meter, except now you have to navigate through a menu to get a reading off of it. Smart Meters are a crock of shit.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

But a really good self-loading dishwasher would be neat! Of course it would need a droid extension that wanders around the house picking up dirty coffee cups and plates, in which case it WOULD need internet access so that it could message you to ask 'have you finished with this half-eaten pork pie?'

You just made me realize I married a dishwashing machine!

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Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

It must be nice to have a choice. Mine was installed last week with no option of refusal. Well, If I refused I got no service that is.

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Pint

Re: Bewildered. (That's grown-up speak for "wtf")

Me "...time to call in Sarah Conner."

Funny picture: http://tinyurl.com/SarahConnerLOL

A picture of The Terminator confused by a Captcha.

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This post has been deleted by its author

Silver badge

Re: A software bug in a dishwasher?

You're not familiar with Miele, are you? True, they've dropped the ball on this one issue, but they are the only appliance maker that makes stuff the last and to be repaired. For example, their washing machines still allow the bearings to be replaced, and use a cast iron ballast instead of concrete.

This has been the consistent results if independent testing by the Consumer Association (which is financed by member's subscriptions, not adverts).

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Anonymous Coward

Re: A software bug in a dishwasher?

funny enough we have a said Miele dishwasher that you can connect to the tinterweb if you so wish, I haven't, as you need and android or apple phone to manage it. The dishwasher itself is very good cleans miles better than our old Siemens one

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Anonymous Coward

Re: A software bug in a dishwasher?

"they are the only appliance maker that makes stuff the last and to be repaired."

Someone I know has had MULTIPLE replacements of a Mile appliance in only a few years due to it continually failing.

Mile have financially incentivised them to NOT put details on social media.

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Re: A software bug in a dishwasher?

"use a cast iron ballast instead of concrete."

Ballast of any sort must be more or less unique these days. Just replaced the washing machine and the guys who took the old one away were a bit taken aback by the weight.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: A software bug in a dishwasher?

"they are the only appliance maker that makes stuff the last and to be repaired"

huh - you've not had 3 successive control boards fail (one per year) then have you - with a cost of $500 per board!!!

all because they use a 50 cent chip to control the water inlet valve - with said chip failing - often in the closed position, so that as soon as you try turning on it starts pumping water into the machine....

now to be fair, after complaining to the president of the company, they did come out and replace the last one (which is now holding for the second year) - BUT it still took an email to Germany to get results...trying to deal with the company here in Canada produced nothing other than a 10% off the cost of the part...

I have since tracked down the bad chip and have ordered in spares (resulting in a few repaired spare control boards) - BUT the company does not offer any kind of a repair/rebuild service for the elecronics - it's either buy a new one or buy a new unit - and at $500 per board it's better to buy a bosch/maytag/ge etc than it is to try a repair their unit....

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Anonymous Coward

Re: A software bug in a dishwasher?

You're not familiar with Miele, are you?

I think your sense of humour is caffeine dependent. The whooshing sound is the joke (washed up; lather, rinse, repeat) going over your head - go get some coffee and you'll be fine :).

As for Miele, in my experience there are quite a number of good brands out there, just not if you buy the cheapest device in the range. There is a reason the good ones cost more money - they know they won't sell that many of them.

I myself have a Bosch Maxx which had ONE repair in 20 years and that was 2 months after I bought it. Having a kid with eczema meant the oils in the ointments in his clothes ate away at the door seal, so the Bosch service engineer replaced it with a neoprene one which was impervious to that and it's been doing a very good job ever since - near daily.

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Really Miele

Why, just why?

As an aside i have a dishwasher that occasionally connects to the 'Net and yet suffers few if any bugs at all.

In fact, 'm so healthy i could die tomorrow.

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Who in the FUCK ...

... came up with THAT totally fucking stupid idea? I mean, seriously, hands up all y'all who have been pining for a dishwasher with an embedded web server. We'll wait.

::crickets::

That's what I thought ... AND THIS IS A TECHNONERD SITE!

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Silver badge

Re: Who in the FUCK ...

Me, but not for me to buy, it would mean easy money for my Pen-Testing business.

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Re: Who in the FUCK ...

Nobody asked for a dishwasher connects to the web. Some people have asked for a dishwasher that can be turned on remotely,for those mornings when the whole process of getting the kids ready and driven to school is a nightmare.

People are interested in the end, not the means.

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Re: Who in the FUCK ...

Google the model. Full height, industrial size dishwasher with capacity over 200 glasses.

This is clearly not con- or prosumer, but for large outfits. I can see why a convenient remote monitoring feature might be a selling point to customers who need one, or even many, of those things. Big kitchens are loud and busy, and missing the "bing" of a finished cycle or a red LED requesting maintenance happens easily and wastes time.

This is probably a feature aimed at maximising efficiency, so no time is spent by walking up and checking to see if it is ready to unload and reload. You just wait until it tells you it is ready.

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Re: Who in the FUCK ...

There are also domestic versions offering the phone-home features.

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Re: Who in the FUCK ...

What you have missed is the root cause of the chaos we have. There is a generation now out there who have no concept of security, don't case about privacy and constantly spend every waking out post or consuming inane tat that is posted on social media sites.

The whole "Internet if Things" or the "Connected Home/Car/Shed" is just an extension of the same fad. For reasons that escape me, being able to login to you heating, dishwasher or fridge is seen as a worthwhile. In this case, the dishwasher has either run or not. If it is about to run out of stuff a light comes on to tell me. I then have a box of stuff to refill it. What I don't need to do is have a message sent to me to tell me it has run out of stuff, you simply do not run these appliances buying a single sachet at a time for a single cycle.

As for the bollocks about saving energy, they amount of energy that has gone into making all the electronics required to run it will far outweigh any savings. The trouble is that it is invisible and in the rush to have the latest piece of tat (that will probably only last 3 years) only exacerbates the problem. E-Waste is a complete monster of a problem that STILL has not been tackled properly, and never will until it becomes more economic to recycle rather than create new.

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