back to article Bruce Schneier: The US government is coming for YOUR code, techies

The Open Source Leadership Summit began on Tuesday amid roads closed by a landslide: held in The Resort at Squaw Creek near Lake Tahoe, California, it was not easily accessible to attendees traveling Highway 80 from the San Francisco Bay Area. During his opening keynote, Jim Zemlin, executive director of the Linux Foundation, …

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    1. Kiwi
      Paris Hilton

      Re: Motivation?

      (well not now, with Trump being in Vlad's front pocket.)

      You BASTARD! As soon as I read that this horrible "auditory mental image" came to mind.

      [Apols to the Def ones]

      "Skin on skin, let the love begin.. Putin"

      Hey, something that evil has to be shared.. (Is that why the yanks are quickly booking so many overseas visits for chump?)

  1. Lord_Beavis
    Pirate

    The choice

    "The choice is between smart and stupid government involvement..."

    Well, anytime the government is involved we know which way that goes.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @Lord_Beavis - Re: The choice

      You're convenient forgetting the revolving door between the US government and a few large corporations where a fair number of brilliant corporate players become suddenly dumb in government positions after which they become brilliant again.

    2. bazza Silver badge

      Re: The choice

      "The choice is between smart and stupid government involvement..."

      Well, anytime the government is involved we know which way that goes.

      That's not completely fair. The State of California has been very good in its involvement with self driving car experimenters like Google. They've been allowed to drive their cars on the roads, but the State gets the performance data and, crucially, publishes it.

      The State's message is clear; they're not going to let Google or anyone else foist half finished unproven and potentially dangerous self driving cars onto the general public. And that's is exactly how it should be.

      The problem I think is that regulation of things like IoT devices is that effective regulations would amount to a ban. An effective regulation would be something like "it must be hack proof".

      But we just don't have the infrastructure or technology to make small embedded Internet connected devices that get updated, implement best security practices, etc. We can't even make a PC or Mac style computer that, when put into a home, won't become littered with malware within moment of someone browsing some dodgy website. What hope is there for some IoT device that's got to cost less than $50?

      Elections

      Any sane politicians know that when something predictable and bad goes wrong, they get it in the neck for not having intervened beforehand. And because they're elected, generally they lose their jobs as a result. So they regulate, and transgressers pay a fine or go to jail. It's a healthy set up. So if Internet connected air-conditioning systems start being seen as a threat to the electricity grid, they'll likely act before some script kiddie comes along and trashes the grid by getting every air conditioner to switch off at the same moment.

      What makes the current situation appalling is that "dangerous" things now includes automated trend-sensitive "news" selection algorithms on Facebook, Google, etc. These permitted fake news to play a significant role in the US election. The dangerous part is that the current crop of elected politicians owe their employment to the result of that election. So they don't see a problem with the situation, and aren't necessarily strongly motivated to do anything about it. Especially as it would mean imposing editorial controls on social media, the operators of which are amongst the most active lobbyists.

      That's a huge threat to democracy in general, and makes it more likely that one ends up with a week government that is more favoured by someone like Putin.

      National Firewall

      One aspect I'm not sure Bruce Schneier covered is just what a government can do about dodgy software, IoT devices, etc.

      Suppose some software or IoT device was identified as being a major problem, and had to be stopped, disabled, etc. How effective would a product recall be? Not very - people are very lazy when a device's bad behavior doesn't actually impact themselves. Suppose that some foreign-hosted Web service was spouting fake news and wasn't conforming to appropriate editorial rules during an election?

      What would be required is something like a government off switch, or the ability for the misbehaving device's or website's network traffic to be blocked.

      The latter sounds like it would need something not unlike the Great Firewall of China. I think that that's what we're going to see being discussed in the coming years. It's going to be a heated debate.

      But we may have to accept that if we want government to actually be able to intervene quickly and effectively when some Internet thing or some foreign website is misbehaving, it's going to need something with teeth, not just the power to issue a recall notice or a cease-and-desist letter (which won't work abroad anyway).

      1. Someonehasusedthathandle

        Re: The choice

        "Any sane politicians know that when something predictable and bad goes wrong, they get it in the neck for not having intervened beforehand. And because they're elected, generally they lose their jobs as a result."

        Sane politician....

        Lose their job....

        What fantasy world are you living in...

      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: The choice

        "Suppose some software or IoT device was identified as being a major problem, and had to be stopped, disabled, etc. How effective would a product recall be?"

        Did you read the article about the botnet on a University campus? If so you'll recall that they scanned for these devices (and fixed them by updating the passwords). So it can be done. Probably the most efficient way would be to impose the requirement on ISPs to scan their own estate, at least for devices visible through firewalls; they're not going to do it voluntarily but then they wouldn't be given the option.

    3. SVV

      Re: The choice

      "The choice is between smart and stupid government involvement..."

      I think you'll find the voters made that choice last November. Try watching the news any day of the week to see which one they chose.

  2. Herby

    Colossus, the Forbin project...

    Enough said...

    My opinion: The movie was terrible, they destroyed lots of perfectly good 1620 front panels!

  3. Notas Badoff

    Compare and contrast

    Phil Gramm: Bankers are smart people. They know what they are doing.*

    Bruce Schneier: We're going to have to have regulations because this is important.

    One argued we didn't need to regulate because we should just trust the smart people. Then 2008. And we still don't regulate those actors.

    The latter says the implications of trust without verification are unthinkable. Because of the dangers to society, etc.

    Oh, I don't know. Let's roll the dice. What could go wrong?

    * BTW: I can't find the original quote easily anymore. In this era of fake news it is very disturbing that real life can disappear.

    1. Updraft102

      Re: Compare and contrast

      It was regulation that made what the bankers did the most rational choice. They were behaving rationally, given the conditions set forth by the US government. If the Community Reinvestment act, Freddie Mac, and Fannie Mae never existed, neither would the 2008 crash have existed. These things are caused by too much government, not too little.

      1. matchbx
        Holmes

        Re: Compare and contrast

        "It was regulation that made what the bankers did the most rational choice. They were behaving rationally, given the conditions set forth by the US government. If the Community Reinvestment act, Freddie Mac, and Fannie Mae never existed, neither would the 2008 crash have existed. These things are caused by too much government, not too little."

        I'm still astounded that people don't understand this. I guess all the down votes are from people who think this is an opinion....

        Guess they'll down vote me too for agreeing with you.

      2. strum

        Re: Compare and contrast

        >It was regulation that made what the bankers did the most rational choice

        Utter twaddle. Regulation didn't force mortgagers to write duff mortgages. Greed did (abetted by a system designed to protect mortgagers from their errors).

        1. matchbx

          Re: Compare and contrast

          "Regulation didn't force mortgagers to write duff mortgages. Greed did"....

          But here's the rub... the Community Reinvestment Act that was passed by Jimmy Carter in 79 and given enforcement teeth by Bill Clinton prevented the mortgagers from questioning income information that was entered on applications....

          the Community Reinvestment Act was specifically created to FORCE the mortgagers into loaning money to low income people....

          1. Nick Ryan Silver badge

            Re: Compare and contrast

            the Community Reinvestment Act was specifically created to FORCE the mortgagers into loaning money to low income people....

            Perhaps, but it didn't force them to repackage these loans in to blocks, lie about the risk inherent in them and the go through a cascading game of pass-the-promisory-loan as if it had value until the stack was finally called in (in which case many lenders found that they were backing their own loans with their own loans).

            1. matchbx

              Re: Compare and contrast

              Perhaps, but it didn't force them to repackage these loans in to blocks, lie about the risk inherent in them and the go through a cascading game of pass-the-promisory-loan as if it had value until the stack was finally called in (in which case many lenders found that they were backing their own loans with their own loans).......

              I agree with you for the most part... They did it to minimize the risk (not saying it's right, but I do understand why).

              This was a very complex issue with a lot of moving parts... The original comment that started this had 8 thumbs down with no comments on why. To truly understand what happened you have to go back and look at what happened on almost a day to day basis...

              The thing to keep in mind IMHO is that this whole ball started rolling with Government Regulations.

              1. AdamWill

                Re: Compare and contrast

                Well, no, it didn't. The whole ball started rolling back in the days when there were virtually no government regulations, and so you had a whole bunch of tiny banks which went broke with depressing regularity and were loath to do business with each other.

                https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/economics/essays/us-banking-system-origin-development-and-regulation

                "Banking crises occurred in 1837, 1839–1842, and 1857, years when many banks had to suspend convertibility of their bank notes and deposits into coin because their coin reserves were insufficient."

                "Banking panics occurred in 1873, 1884, 1893, and 1907. The last was especially embarrassing because by 1907 the US economy was the largest in the world, as was the US banking system."

            2. tom dial Silver badge

              Re: Compare and contrast

              Loan repackaging had been going on since the 1960s, when I made a small investment in a real estate investment trust. My 1983 mortgage was sold off to a repackager, although the local S&L that originated it continued to service it.

              The 2008 crash was a classic bubble of the type Charles MacKay described more than 175 years ago. It plainly was aggravated by the unintended consequences of laws and regulations intended to increase home ownership and ensure that it did not exclude racial and ethnic minority members, as well as enthusiastic participation by large numbers of dishonest borrowers, lenders, and resellers.

              Still, it is extremely doubtful that it would have happened without the strong encouragement of the federal government, which allowed risk to be passed on, as happens in all financial bubbles and is building up to happen even now for the college education bubble.

            3. Jaybus

              Re: Compare and contrast

              "but it didn't force them to repackage these loans in to blocks"

              No. It didn't force them to, but it allowed them to. Bankers were unwilling to make the low income loans, so the 1999 Financial Services Modernization Act was enacted during the Clinton administration to repeal parts of the 1933 Glass-Steagall Act and allow the banks to trade sub-prime loan backed securities. It was an incentive to get the banks on board with knowingly making loans to people who could not afford them.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Compare and contrast

        Updraft102, please stop repeating that nonsense about the Crash of 2008. The biggest subprime lenders were exempt from the Community Reinvestment Act, and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were for-profit privatized companies with publicly traded stock and private-sector managers, not government agencies. If you insist on blaming the CRA, then you must explain why it only caused trouble from 2001 to 2008 even though it's been law since 1975 and remains in effect today.

        1. matchbx

          Re: Compare and contrast

          If you insist on blaming the CRA, then you must explain why it only caused trouble from 2001 to 2008 even though it's been law since 1975 and remains in effect today.

          easy.... when the act was passed in 75 by President Carter it had NO enforcement teeth. I.E. if the banks ignored the law (which they did) there were no penalties, no fines..... nothing happened to them.

          President Clinton passed laws when he was in office that gave the CRA Enforcement Teeth... I.E. Fines and Penalties.....

    2. Swarthy
      Big Brother

      Re: Compare and contrast

      I can't find the original quote easily anymore. In this era of fake news it is very disturbing that real life can disappear.

      Don't worry, your chocolate ration has been increased to 90g per day.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Childcatcher

    World -> Pot

    Times they are a changing, as someone was often miss-quoted.

    The world is still imperfect and nowadays we can pontificate about that in the timezone of someone else's choice to anyone who is "linked in" to the same bubble and can be arsed to hit refresh.

    In yesteryear it was Satan and witches, now we have Oracle (MS, Google, Apple int al) and IoT botnets. That's in the IT world. In the *ahem* real world we have ISIS and errr our own governments or something ... depending on your chosen/imposed religion.

    I'm a forty something bloke off of the UK and have seen a few things in my time. Nowadays is frankly odd and a bit disquieting. I'm sure I'll get over our civic liberties being drained away whilst I write twaddle on some forum or other. I feel so empowered being able to get a few UVs or DVs. At least I'm not a "like" whore.

    *sigh*

    1. bazza Silver badge

      Re: World -> Pot

      Like

  5. tom dial Silver badge

    But wait

    "Schneier ... plans to call for the creation of a new US government agency to sort through the issues arising from putting software in everything." This, presumably, will require laws, since government agencies do not "sort through the issues," but apply the laws enacted by the legislature and approved by the executive. Sorting through the issues, and reconciling the many competing interests, is the job of legislators who do not always do it well and often are somewhat clueless in technical matters. The recent history of the Cybersecurity Information Sharing Act is instructive.

    In the end, however, even if good legislation can be passed, it will not ensure that network connected devices that combine hardware and software will be secure, and the law will not apply to either US criminals (except as punishment if caught) or foreigners sheltered by uncooperative governments (at all). It also will not protect against clueless users who click on dodgy email or web links.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: But wait

      "the law will not apply to either US criminals (except as punishment if caught)"

      That's the case across all laws and criminals. Not having a relevant law simply means no punishment and no criminals, it just means no bar on people carrying out actions which would be a crime were there a law to define one.

      1. tom dial Silver badge

        Re: But wait

        The implicit point was that it is unclear whether having such a law will have much beneficial effect in limiting damage from shoddy software. In an environment where ensuring security of large software/hardware systems is all but impossible, legislating against insecure software is likely to be a waste of time.

        A huge number of IoT and similar devices with embedded computers run a general purpose operating system, and the SoC in many of them has roughly the complexity and capability of a late IBM S/370 system. They certainly qualify as "large software/hardware systems." Furthermore, a great many of these systems allow or even require end user configuration. That will generate vulnerabilities in addition to any that came in the box and confuse issues of responsibility for what, inevitably, will go wrong.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: But wait

      "Sorting through the issues, and reconciling the many competing interests, is the job of legislators"

      In theory, yes, that's Congress's job, but they rarely do it. Instead, they write the law to indicate that a regulator will handle all the problems of actually deciding what should be done, thus abdicating their authority to the administrative branch. Then the Congress critters can claim that they've fixed the problem at the same time they complain that the regulator didn't do what Congress told them to.

      1. tom dial Silver badge

        Re: But wait

        Congress often does a shoddy job, but they are there for what I said, and a good deal of executive mischief comes from their failure to sufficiently narrow executive branch freedom to act.

        Moreover, through the well documented mechanism of regulatory capture, agencies designated in the laws tend to become most attentive and responsive to vociferous policy advocates These often the very entities that the agency is to regulate. The agencies also tend to recruit from and retire to employment by regulated entities; consider both Tom Wheeler and Ajit Pai, for example.

  6. martinusher Silver badge

    HIPAA -- a warning

    HIPAA is what happens when government tries to mandate how computer systems should operate. Its well meaning but it's effect is to holds back development and deployment of novel systems. You don't want that to happen to any nascent technology.

  7. chivo243 Silver badge
    Headmaster

    but, but

    Fear = Opportunity!

    Great, now our code will be overseen by people that can't code?

    1. bazza Silver badge

      Re: but, but

      Great, now our code will be overseen by people that can't code?

      One of the problems is that our code is written by people/teams who can't or won't code properly either.

      If a team set out to do something "properly" they'd be expensive and slow, and they'd never sell anything.

      1. kmac499

        Re: but, but

        I've spent the last couple of decades wrting software for a living, just business stuff, but there was nothing stopping me working on the software for medical devices, aviation or (god forbid) banking. Each area could affect real peoples live badly if I screwed up. I have no formal qualifications

        My brother retrained as as an electrician, he has taken exams has certificates and needs to update those qualifications when new regulations come out. He cannot legally undertake some work without those qualifications and work must be done to a standard which may be examined by others.

        There are similar rules for Plumbers and Gas fitters.

        Maybe we do need some form of industry certification (not MCP or Cisico Certs)

        1. Anonymous Coward
          FAIL

          Re: but, but

          If you had written software for Medical Devices (SaaMD) or indeed Aviation, you'd know that it isn't just a case of knocking out a few lines of code and hey-presto!

          While there is nothing stopping you from writing code for SaaMD, there are a huge number of regulations and hoops to be jumped through to get your product CE marked and to market.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: but, but

            Exactly: certification.

            To return to the poster's comparison with electricians: you can do your own electrical work, but in a lot of cases you have to get it inspected by an qualified electrician.

  8. Bogle
    Joke

    Civil War

    It's "Civil War" with Bruce Schneier as Tony Stark / Iron Man. Where's our Captain America!

  9. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
    Big Brother

    We are doomed.

    This is the industry that gave us genius ideas like "software patents" and recently, to the acclaim of internally damaged journalists, "API copyrights".

    Getting something right?

    Yeah, right!

    OTOH, as no-one can be arsed to get software "right" in any case, disaster will continue to strike, hacks will continue to proliferate, and backdoors will stay in code bases . We are heading for the one of those Hieronymus Bosch hell situations.

  10. Stevie

    Bah!

    Oh yes, time to get serious.

    And yet, all your everything are still belong to lightbulb.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Up

    Get 'em

    It's about time the government cracked down on dodgy tech companies. If that makes the tech industry impossibly unpleasant to work in, tough shit. Get a real job.

    It's no skin off my back. As an independent contractor I *already* avoid work that could expose me to financial liability for safety & security faults, which are inevitable and largely beyond my control. That also happens to be the most tedious programming work there is. I'd rather dig ditches.

    You know where this is going....... When safety/security critical computer systems are fully held to account, we'll find there's basically no place for them. Other safety-critical industries have a chain of responsibility, with licensed Professional Engineers taking personal responsibility for design approval and construction supervision, and insurance for rare failures. But "Software Engineering" is an oxymoron. It's too complex and unpredictable to design against failure. It fails constantly and we fix it after the fact. Unacceptable.

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

  12. EnviableOne

    One World One Tinternet

    Just thinking is the Nation state not as extinct as the network boundary?

    in the world of t internet, where Russian hackers influence US elections an Ukrainian hackers ransom UK PCs with impunity, is a border not just a quaint Idea?

    What we need is a global consensus and controls that effect the entire system, not just parts of it, as the way its all designed, the regulated parts will lose out and the others rise.

    We need a Geneva Convention of Cyberspace or a UN High Commission for Cyber Security

    1. tom dial Silver badge

      Re: One World One Tinternet

      "Is the Nation state not extinct as the network boundary?"

      China think not.

  13. mistersilver134

    Anyone remember Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash? The entire premise was that the gov had decided that independent coders were dangerous and was determined to control them even if it meant killing the majority. Pretty prescient hey?

  14. jake Silver badge

    Obxkcd

    https://xkcd.com/1039/

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