back to article Euro space agency's Galileo satellites stricken by mystery clock failures

Europe's GPS-alike system Galileo is suffering a number of unexplained clock failures on its satellites, the European Space Agency has admitted. Each of the 18 Galileo satellites currently in orbit carries four maser*-based atomic clocks. Two clocks are hydrogen-based, while the other pair use rubidium. The ESA says the clocks …

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: Why not just leave the satellites on the ground, where you can go and fix them in a van...

        Stevie, the USGS maps are easily equal to the OS maps. Better in some cases. Available online for the price of a download. For more start here:

        https://nationalmap.gov/ustopo/index.html

        1. david 12 Silver badge

          Stevie, the USGS maps are easily equal to the OS maps.

          Which is an interseting bit of navigational history in itself. The British (and Australian) maps were prepared for military purposes (Ordnance Survey). The American maps were prepared for the mining industry (Geological Survey)

          1. Stevie

            Re:lf. The British (and Australian) maps were prepared for military purposes

            Not quite. The staff of the OS were originally recruited to make maps for such purposes during WWI. But.

            Between the wars, there was a fear that because the government had no legal reason to maintain the OS in peacetime the skill-base would be lost*, so they came up with a spiffing wheeze; a proposal to map the entire British Isles to a scale of one inch to one foot.

            In the very late sixties they were nearly done, when the country decided it was going to go metric in a bid to make the French more receptive to EEC membership, and the OS were tasked with doing the job over to 1:50,000 scale.

            The original OS 1 inch to one mile scale maps had bright red covers. In order that there should be no confusion (the overall coverage of any given map was slightly different in the newer scale) the newer 1:50,000 ones had bright pink covers.

            For a glorious couple of years you could actually get both, though the red ones quickly disappeared once the series was complete. How do I know? Because I was there, and a keen Outward Bounder at the time.

            You get a truly gobsmacking amount of information on one of these maps, enough that should one have a selection of landmarks including churches (ruined or otherwise, with a tower or spire or neither), power lines (the national and super grids were distinguishable), a railway line (especially if it ran over an embankment or through a cutting), a windmill (ruined or working) or a road (minor, major, A or B) or a raft of others (rivers, lakes, canals) a compass is actually superfluous. And all before you start examining the contour information to identify hills by their steepness.

            I bought one for every single place I worked a contract and the route to it from Coventry. I can show you on the one of Land's End where to stand almost to the yard in order to see <i.why</i> they call it The Lizard. The one I have of Corris is from before the heritage railway was up and running, so the railway isn't shown - but the ancient trackbed is along with the reasons it was built in the first place.

            More modern ones even include scenic lookouts for the traveler with a camera.

            The American GS maps are nice, but not *as* nice. Different reason for making them, see?

            Yes, I miss the OS map rack in W.H.Smiths.

            * If anything illustrates a difference in attitude between then and now, this does.

        2. Stevie

          Re: easily equal

          Mmm not so much. Great detail, and perfect for reading on some sort of e-device but lacking the superduper features of an OS paper map. I'd say why but limit it just to the key and let people look it up for themselves.

          That said, this is a great steer and thanks many times over, jake.

      2. dbannon

        Re: Why not just leave the satellites on the ground, where you can go and fix them in a van...

        "Comes to that, why not just learn to read a flippin' map?"

        Ah, pretty as they may be, they don't have a little arrow that says "you are here" do they ?

        While you can (sort of) calculate your position from landmarks, sun or stars, that little arrow is much more accurate for most of use.

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: Why not just leave the satellites on the ground, where you can go and fix them in a van...

          If you need "that little arrow" to tell you where you are on a map, I respectfully suggest that your inability to understand how to read a map will make "the little arrow" fscking useless.

          1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

            Re: Why not just leave the satellites on the ground, where you can go and fix them in a van...

            "If you need "that little arrow" to tell you where you are on a map, I respectfully suggest that your inability to understand how to read a map will make "the little arrow" fscking useless."

            Different use case. Having a paper map and knowing how to use it will tell you where you are. You can then use it to find out where you want to be and then calculate how to get there. Great for hiking, or planning a driving/touring holiday trip. Using a SatNav, it's doesn't matter where you are. It's only use is to tell it where you want to be and then let it tell how to get there.

            TL'DR

            Paper maps - for when the journey is part of the fun.

            SatNav - for when you just want to get somewhere without hassle.

            1. onefang

              Re: Why not just leave the satellites on the ground, where you can go and fix them in a van...

              "Paper maps - for when the journey is part of the fun.

              "SatNav - for when you just want to get somewhere without hassle."

              Or having the data in a paper map on your phone, and using it without the GPS system like I do. Coz my phone is a lot smaller and lighter than a street directory. Best of both worlds.

          2. the Jim bloke

            Re: Why not just leave the satellites on the ground, where you can go and fix them in a van...

            Large amounts of west Oz lack recognizable landmarks - even from aerial photos. This is before the landscape is rearranged for mining purposes which is the justification for going there in the first place, and changes the topography much faster than any publication schedule could keep up with.

            I have enjoyed recreational map following holidays, but for convenience, productivity and accuracy in an industrial/mining environment,. GNSS is king

        2. Stevie

          Re: Why not just leave the satellites on the ground, where you can go and fix them in a van...

          With an OS map there is no calculation required, just visibility out to the required landmarks and one working eye.

          Never heard of anyone driving up a flight of steps and through an active worksite when working from a map either. Nor having a strident voice demanding in increasingly hysterical tones that I drive into Manhattan despite having set waypoints to prevent that very disastrous routing beforehand.

          I might very well have had the same trouble with barricaded Washington DC roads not shown on a map either, but then I wouldn't have planned a route through DC in the first place.

      3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: Why not just leave the satellites on the ground, where you can go and fix them in a van...

        "Comes to that, why not just learn to read a flippin' map?"

        Because they are usually, at least a year or two out of date by the time they are printed. And none show actual addresses or postcodes, let alone the nearest pub!

        On a slightly more practical note, in my case, I travel a lot so a years worth of paper maps would cost nearly as much as a cheap satnav, ie general Road Atlas + street maps of the various towns and cities + OS maps to find the smaller roads/villages that the road atlas "helpfully" ignores to make the maps "clearer"

    1. Frank Bitterlich

      Re: Why not just leave the satellites on the ground, where you can go and fix them in a van...

      Actually, they did this: in the test phase, the Galileo system consisted of just a few ground-based stations (placed somewhere in Bavaria IIRC.)

      Google for "GALILEO Test and Development Environment".

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The main supplier is Spectratime

    http://www.spectratime.com/about/company/

    Did they really trusted a company that put an "i" before all of its product names aping Apple?

    Well, if you can no longer trust Swiss clocks too...

    1. allthecoolshortnamesweretaken

      Re: The main supplier is Spectratime

      Swann: [waking up] What is the time?

      girl in bed: I don't know. Don't you have a watch?

      Swann: No. I'm not allowed to wear a watch.

      girl in bed: Why not?

      Swann: I don't trust them.

      girl in bed: Why?

      Swann: One hand is shorter than the other.

  2. Norman Nescio Silver badge

    Livestream of media briefing

    I think a recording of the media briefing is here:

    http://www.esa.int/spaceinvideos/Videos/2017/01/DG_media_briefing

    (I can't access it as it seems to want to run Flash, which the device I'm using right now doesn't support)

    I also can't find anything on the ESA website referring to the problem - they might be a little embarrassed.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Livestream of media briefing

      I also can't find anything on the ESA website referring to the problem - they might be a little embarrassed.

      Coming hot on the heels of of Schiaperelli they aren't covering themselves in glory, I'd tend to agree. Luckily it is a pan-European project, so everybody can blame somebody else, although the Guardian will presumably (again) conclude that it is all because ESA doesn't have enough women running it, or the staff wear the wrong t-shirts.

    2. Mephistro
      Devil

      Re: Livestream of media briefing (@ Norman Nescio)

      "I can't access it as it seems to want to run Flash"

      Their site must have been hacked, as it's trying to make me install a virus: "Get Adobe Flash Player"

      On a more serious note, it's really sad that ESA still relies on Flash in this day and age!

  3. Trigonoceps occipitalis

    HARRY LIME

    You know what the fellow said – in Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce? The Swiss Cantonal Observatory of Neuchatel.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: HARRY LIME

      Exactly because they didn't use warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed to gather the money to pay for some wall art and statues. And some of them were also Popes who shouldn't have had any interest in earthly richness.... (Swiss has been supplying their guards for centuries, anyway).

      It's fairly easy to forget that art was often paid by tears and blood of those not so lucky to be the ruling upper class. We're returning there anyway.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: HARRY LIME

        And BTW: I would exchange many Leonardo plus some Michelangelos and Raffaellos for a single Euler. Leonardo was essentially an early sci-fi author. Sure, anybody can understand Leonardo drawings. Understanding Euler mathematics is a not so easy.

        Galileo was far more advanced, but because he didn't draw on walls - something even a Pope can understand - it became less famous.

        1. asdf
          Trollface

          Re: HARRY LIME

          > Leonardo was essentially an early sci-fi author.

          If only there was an English phrase for a person being well rounded in many disciplines especially concerning this time period.

          1. Dan Paul

            Re: HARRY LIME

            Perhaps Renaissance Man?

            1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
              Happy

              Re: HARRY LIME

              "Perhaps Renaissance Man?"

              An English phrase?

              From French renaissance, from re- back, again + naissance birth (from Latin nascentia, from nasci be born).

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: HARRY LIME

            Most of Leonardo knowledge was well behind Greek and Hellenistic one, achieved centuries before, and then mostly forgotten by hordes of ignorant - which understood precious items, but not precious knowledge.

            Whoever built the Antikythera mechanism had engineering and mathematical knowledge far more advanced than his - and the machine was *built*, not just drawn.

            Leonardo is like a pop star. Easy to "listen to". No much effort required. Do you ever read Galileo books? They are fantastic, he was a great writer too. Just, not many images to look at - not exactly children books...

            1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

              Re: HARRY LIME

              "Whoever built the Antikythera mechanism had engineering and mathematical knowledge far more advanced than his - and the machine was *built*, not just drawn."

              Even if all his work was independently (re-)discovering "lost" information the Greeks or whoever had many, many years earlier, then that's not his fault. It was lost and he deserves full credit for his discoveries.

              On the other hand, if he had access to earlier books and just regurgitated them with a some new discoveries, then maybe there's a case for calling him a "pop star"

          3. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: HARRY LIME

            >If only there was an English phrase for a person being well rounded in many disciplines especially concerning this time period.

            Management consultant ?

    2. Mage Silver badge

      Re: HARRY LIME

      Though Cuckoo clocks are perhaps a Bavarian thing and not really Swiss?

      They have all that nice cheese, dried beef, salami ...

      Did Graeme Green (original book author) or Orson Welles write the monologue? Though it really suited the Harry Lime character, the people just being "dots", and thus to Harry it didn't matter that he was killing children with his diluted penicillin.

      1. John Gamble

        Re: HARRY LIME

        Hmm. It looks like Welles had to improvise a line for timing purposes, but he got the comparison from someone else (possible source: James Abbott McNeill Whistler).

    3. allthecoolshortnamesweretaken

      Re: HARRY LIME

      Harry Lime didn't just get the thing about the cuckoo clocks wrong (they are from the Black Forest) - the Swiss had a couple of wars in ther time, the last being the civil war of 1847. Which, as far as wars go, was comparatively polite.

  4. Kay Burley ate my hamster

    EU?

    AFAIK ESA are separate from the EU, like EBU are.

    1. Kristian Walsh Silver badge

      Re: EU?

      Correct.

      Canada is a member of ESA, and Canada is notable for not even being in Europe, let alone the EU.

      ESA is, in effect a buyers' club. Governments put money into a pot, and ESA divvies out the money in such a way as to ensure that the same amount goes back to each country, give or take. Of course, you can only buy what's made in a country, but there's a surprising amount of design and research done in aerospace even in countries with no actual aerospace industry.

      Obligatory Brexit: The UK has no plans to leave ESA (it's actually one of the net beneficiaries of the fund, with UK firms being awarded more in contracts than the UK government puts into the pot)

      1. bazza Silver badge

        Re: EU?

        Canada is a member of ESA, and Canada is notable for not even being in Europe, let alone the EU.

        With Trump getting inaugurated tomorrow, perhaps Canada would like to be able to cast off, sail across the Atlantic and anchor somewhere off the French coast, perhaps form a land bridge between France and the UK.

        Might have to turn it sideways to fit it in without also forming a land bridge to the eastern coast of the USA...

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: EU?

          Why not just swap the populations ?

          50% of Brits wanted to leave Europe, that's roughly the population of Canada - they could just do a house-swap

          1. allthecoolshortnamesweretaken

            Re: EU?

            That's actually the best Brexit scenario I've heard so far.

            And yes, I wish I was joking.

  5. fche

    Hey, it's not a problem that a little more redirected EU agricultural subsidy money can't fix.

    1. herman

      What? For more cuckoo feed?

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Stopped clocks

    Well they're right twice a day !

    1. Frank Bitterlich
      Boffin

      Re: Stopped clocks

      Depends - these types of clocks tend to be right every 2^64 seconds (or whatever their time base is)...

  7. Frank Bitterlich
    Coat

    No longer functioning...

    " ... identifies the original makers of the rubidium clocks as the Swiss Cantonal Observatory of Neuchatel, which appears to no longer be a functioning scientific institute."

    So they clocked out early?

    1. Arachnoid

      Re: No longer functioning...

      The Rubix clock..........it just needs someone clever enough to provide the solution

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Joke

      Re: No longer functioning...

      > So they clocked out early?

      Yes, it's that European Working Time directive coming into play.

      1. PNGuinn
        Joke

        Yes, it's that European Working Time directive coming into play.

        Or in this case the European NOT Working Time directive coming into play....

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Joke

    ESA breaking news

    "After extensive investigation, the root cause was found in abnormal thermal dilatation of the cuckoo window, which got stuck and made the clock unable to work".

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: ESA breaking news

      I blame the new Toblerone

  9. Jan 0 Silver badge
    Headmaster

    What times we live in.

    I'm surprised that a journalist on an erstwhile techie website thinks we need to have the MASER acronym explained to us!

    MASERs aren't new, just a little bit older than LASERs.

    Back in the day we spelled it M.A.S.E.R. and I think the New York Times and Washington Post still hold with that style.

    1. Hans Neeson-Bumpsadese Silver badge

      Re: What times we live in.

      Probably because it was written in lower case, so not obviously an abbreviation - it was just crying out to have commentards exclaiming "you spelled 'master' wrong!"

    2. Terje

      Re: What times we live in.

      I'm not 100% sure, but I think masers predate lasers.

      1. Chris G

        Re: What times we live in.

        Masers do predate lasers and I think there were at least three different labs working on both at more or less the same time on both sides of the Iron Curtain. Late '50s ish,

        1. billse10

          Re: What times we live in.

          Charles Townes, 1954/5 papers and working in 57.

          Anyone-but-Gould(*), 1960 laser.

          * first to file patent without telling coworkers probably should not get credit for it. He did come up with the name, though.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The ESA is not an EU body

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