Re: Umm....
"How do you make it through a single day?"
Tinfoil is relatively cheap when bought in bulk direct from the manufacturer.
Information on smart meters? Yep. They're great. That works, right? – UK.gov
The UK government has insisted it is effectively communicating the benefits of its controversial smart meter programme – despite MPs having identified a "lack of clarity" over the "problem" the scheme is trying to solve. In its response to the committee’s “Evidence Check” report on smart meters in September, the government …
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Wednesday 7th December 2016 17:43 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Umm....
"They can even tell which channel you're watching,"
No they can't. Well not if you basically record everything to your PVR and watch it days or weeks later at times that suit you.
Hmmm. Now that I think about it, perhaps they can. That webcam on the connectyed TV will broadcast the details back to the mothership... but mine isn't connected up so it can't.
Since I've had a Solar PV (1.8Kw) array installed I monitor my consumption and generation quite keenly. Even at this time of year the old style meter runs backwards during the daylight even if it is pretty cloudy.
My guestimation is that my electricty bill over a year will be close to zero if not less than zero.(ie they pay me). There really is no incentive for me to install a 'smart meter'.
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Wednesday 7th December 2016 18:42 GMT Cynic_999
Re: Umm....
"
Since I've had a Solar PV (1.8Kw) array installed I monitor my consumption and generation quite keenly. Even at this time of year the old style meter runs backwards during the daylight even if it is pretty cloudy.
"
A 1.8kW solar panel in the UK will generate about 1700kWh per year (if you are lucky)
(source http://www.theecoexperts.co.uk/how-much-electricity-does-average-solar-panel-system-generate)
1700kWh of electricity bought from a supplier will cost about £250 in my area
(source - my electricity bill)
A 1.8kW PV panel will cost about £3000
(source http://www.theecoexperts.co.uk/2kw-solar-panel-system-costs)
Therefore you might break even after 12 years. Assuming the PV panel is still functioning at close to full power (unlikely).
Of course there may be additional benefits in government subsidies, but you cannot rely on the taxpayer being milked to give you some free energy forever. If electricity costs rise (almost certain), you will break even a bit sooner. But there are also interest charges if you are paying for the panels in instalments.
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Wednesday 7th December 2016 19:19 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Umm....
Of course there may be additional benefits in government subsidies, but you cannot rely on the taxpayer being milked to give you some free energy forever.
Well, when you install a qualifying PV array, the "feed in tariff" is paid for twenty five years, with an inflationary uplift every year. The current (and still unmerited) subsidies give about a 5% rate of return, but early installations got up to 33p kWh, and through 2014-2015 the rate of return was about 20% (hence all the foot in the door sales, and offers of "free" PV.
The circa £6bn quid wasted on PV in this country has of course been added to everybody else's electricity bills, as will be done with the billions on smart meters. I was at an energy user's working group yesterday - everybody there agreed that smart meters were a waste of time and money, but as always, the idiots of Westminster won't admit they are wrong. And it isn't like they're paying.
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Wednesday 7th December 2016 21:24 GMT Doctor Syntax
Re: Umm....
'Well, when you install a qualifying PV array, the "feed in tariff" is paid for twenty five years, with an inflationary uplift every year.'
Unless it becomes politically expedient to cut it. Don't base your own budget on what governments offer. They're not to be trusted, especially beyond a general election.
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Wednesday 7th December 2016 22:07 GMT veti
Re: Umm....
I don't know who you think you are, but who do you think gives a flying fuck about when you're in the shower or boiling the kettle?
And how do you think they would tell the difference between those two things? Assuming you're not dumb enough to buy an IoT-enabled kettle, of course.
And given that the meter only reports data daily, not constantly, the info isn't real-time anyway.
Get over yourself already. Nobody cares that much about your movements.
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Thursday 8th December 2016 14:59 GMT Scott 53
Re: Umm....
"*They can even tell which channel you're watching, the varying consumption of your TV as it adjusts the screen backlighting creates a unique signature they can match against channels broadcasting at the time."
Er, no. The meter sends a read every 30 minutes, not in real time, so all the spooks can tell is that you used 0.5kW h in a 30 minute period.
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Wednesday 7th December 2016 13:33 GMT barstewardsquad
Energy supplier resonse
I received an email from my supplier today in response to a query after they said my old meter was being phased out, and implied a new new smart meter was the only available option.
<snip>
There is no legal obligation for an individual to have Smart Meters fitted, this lies with the supplier.
All energy companies are tasked with fitting as many Smart Meters as possible by 2020.
I have made a not on your account and you will not receive any further correspondence regarding Smart Meters.
</snip>
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Wednesday 7th December 2016 14:21 GMT Sir Runcible Spoon
Re: Energy supplier resonse
"I have made a not on your account and you will not receive any further correspondence regarding Smart Meters."
Which is bullshit, because I got told the same thing and they still sent me another email last month asking me to 'choose the best time' for my new meter to be fitted.
This time I just put it straight in the bin.
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Wednesday 7th December 2016 16:32 GMT IsJustabloke
Re: Energy supplier resonse
"Which is bullshit, because I got told the same thing and they still sent me another email last month asking me to 'choose the best time' for my new meter to be fitted."
new meter <> smart meter
I had a new meter fitted just recently because they meters have an end of Life by which they must be changed, they didn't fit a Smart Meter, they asked I said nope they fitted a standard meter.
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Thursday 8th December 2016 11:49 GMT SImon Hobson
Re: Energy supplier resonse
Which is bullshit, because I got told the same thing and they still sent me another email last month asking me to 'choose the best time' for my new meter to be fitted.
In which case, the correct response is a complaint that they are misusing your personal data and hence committing a breach of the data protection regulations. If you have explicitly told them not to use your data for that purpose, it becomes an offence if they carry on.
So there's another avenue to attack these things. Tell our suppliers we don't want one and not to ask again - then make a complaint when they ignore that request. Shouldn't take too many complaints for the ICO to spot a pattern and issue "guidance" to the industry.
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Wednesday 7th December 2016 16:00 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Energy supplier resonse
I had BG try to offer it. Once. Before I fired them (for a different reason).
I told them that I have participated in the consultations, etc early on and I know all the REAL reasons for fitting them so they can take it and politely install it where sun does not shine.
They did not bother me after that (until I fired them).
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Wednesday 7th December 2016 19:03 GMT You aint sin me, roit
Re: Energy supplier resonse
When I was with eon they sent me a letter saying that they were fitting smart meters "in my area" and, as it was a legal requirement to have a smart meter fitted by 2020, I should arrange for them to do mine.
At the time I was providing security consultancy* on a smart meter prototype project - which also provided an IoT hub (just showing how I'm prepared to prostitute myself for cash) - so I knew a fair bit about them... and decided I wouldn't accept their "offer".
* Too secure for purpose as it turned out: they went for an insecure solution, I washed my hands of the whole project.
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Wednesday 7th December 2016 19:29 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Energy supplier resonse
as it was a legal requirement to have a smart meter fitted by 2020
Well, it is for them. Only this very day British Gas Business got fined £4.5m for failure to complete the installation of AMR meters (a sort of smartish meter) for business customers, E.ON got fined IIRC £7m for the same crime months ago, and Npower are shortly to find out their fate on the same charge.
British Gas installed 42,000 meters against a target of 43,000. So the penalty is £4.5k per meter fitted late. From the suppliers point of view, they don't want to have the blasted things, but faced with being fined millions, how would you respond in their shoes?
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Wednesday 7th December 2016 14:23 GMT Martin Gregorie
Re: Honest
Len, you've got that wrong, I'm afraid.
If there are no benefits to the user of a new product but installing and using it will result in a financial loss, then keeping quiet about this isn't being honest.
The correct terms are "being economical with the truth" or "hiding the facts".
Which one you choose depends on whether you want to be polite to the product's sponsor or to say what's really going on.
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Wednesday 7th December 2016 14:28 GMT Anonymous Coward
that's because
(a) All the Smart Meters installed to date have been to different specifications
(b) the "magic fairy dust network" called the DCC which is used for Suppliers to talk to Meters managed to limp "live" only last month (at least it went live in the correct year even if not the correct season)
(c) the Smart Meters installed to date (at best SMETS1) are not compatible with the new "magic fairy dust network" called the DCC (which wants SMETS2 meters).
(d) HAVE you seen what suppliers are being charged to connect to the DCC? The "reference" version of connection software being £1M. I can't remember if that was a per-annum figure because I spent the rest of the hour time flailing about on the floor.
(e) I can't go on, it's too depressing
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Wednesday 7th December 2016 14:16 GMT Aristotles slow and dimwitted horse
"has been informed by a range of UK and international evidence and seeks to drive uptake and support behaviour change to deliver maximum benefits for consumers from smart meters.”
International evidence from countries that have entirely different regulated and unregulated energy markets. I also like the way that the canned .Gov relating to the benefits still fails to actually state what those benefits are. This is one screwed up programme - but that's DECC and Ofgem for you.
Shhh... let's not also mention the XOSERVE gas transformation programme that is 1.5 years late and about 30m over budget.
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Wednesday 7th December 2016 14:22 GMT Anonymous Coward
What consumers aren't informed...
is that (depending on supplier) your data is passed to and used by Crapita (SmartDCC) and subject to RIPA. Fortunately my energy company (OVO) were very helpful in reducing the automated meter reading to monthly over WAN and a promise that the IHD/SAN network is secure and considered my domain and data.
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Wednesday 7th December 2016 14:51 GMT Mark C 2
Typo...
"The Government worked in partnership with GCHQ on its blog21 on smart metering infrastructure"
Small correction..
"GCHQ intervenes to prevent catastrophically insecure UK smart meter plan"
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2451793/gchq-intervenes-to-prevent-catastrophically-insecure-uk-smart-meter-plan
Minor detail I know, but...
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Thursday 8th December 2016 16:11 GMT JimboSmith
Re: Typo...
I've been posting that on here for sometime* and I'm glad that someone else has posted it too. Who would have thought that having the same key for everyone was a security risk. My 7yr old niece spotted that was a dumb thing to do, did it really need GCHQ? (although I'm glad they spotted it and did something about it)
*http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/2/2016/11/01/smart_meter_rollout_delayed_iagaini_and_none_of_that_11bn_is_refunded/#c_3016441
http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2016/08/17/smart_meters_delayed_again/#c_2947691
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Wednesday 7th December 2016 18:05 GMT Graham Anderson
21st Century Economy7
Smart meters will hopefully allow demand based pricing. This already happens with big business customers, but cheaper off-peak energy could encourage running washing machines and dish washers through the night.
As to the people pointing out how easy it is for you to submit your readings, bully for you. My Mum is in her 80s, and to get the cheapest energy deal we have to provide monthly readings online. Which means I have to call her, get her to go through the not-very-easy-to-access meter cupboard and then *I* have to enter the readings online. I asked if we could get her a smart meter and we were told not yet. The leccy meter in her place and mine are both older than me.
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Wednesday 7th December 2016 19:43 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: 21st Century Economy7
cheaper off-peak energy could encourage running washing machines and dish washers through the night.
OK. Get yourself an E7 meter, fit your house with timers, run all your appliances at 02:00. Fine by me. But why should the rest of us have to fund a £19bn plus programme for that?
Also, very important to note that your fixed rate tarriff is an average against your expected demand profile. Translating that through mathematics and into English, if you have off peak electricity cheaper than your flat rate tariff, you have to pay more than the flat rate for the standard or peak rate periods. As of today you need 40% of your 'leccy in the off peak period for it to be worthwhile, but as a result of distribution code change DCP228, chances are that will be 50% or greater as from April 2018. Can you really use half your power between 02:00 and 07:00?
The other thing is that smart meters aren't about E7: in government's fanatical carbon-obsession, they expect the system to move away from predictable winter peak demand, to crunches between renewable generation and varying demand, so that the pricing jumps around unpredictably. So their ideal world is where we have a "dynamic smart tariff", and that means you and I pay the going rate on an ex-post basis. Not tariff table, little or no notice, just whatever the market decides is the going rate.
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Wednesday 7th December 2016 23:09 GMT Terry 6
Re: 21st Century Economy7
Cheap off-peak....
Beautiful example of the falsity of this.
We used to have a two rate meter, and put washing and dishwasher on timer for night-rate electricity. But the premium they add to the day time cost on that tarrif meant that the extra we were paying for the day time consumption was greater than the saving for the night time. So we went back to single tariff.i.e. You can only get cheap off peak electricity, which would be to everyone's advantage, if you pay significantly more for routine day time use, so there's no incentive.
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Friday 9th December 2016 11:49 GMT Graham Anderson
Re: 21st Century Economy7
Yes, the current E7 system is rubbish. But British Gas are already offering "free time" that isn't a traditional E7 tariff - https://www.britishgas.co.uk/products-and-services/gas-and-electricity/free-electricity-tariff.html
We have big peaks in energy demand, and an upcoming generation crunch. If you want to dismiss any efforts to smooth demand, fine. Looking at the National Grid data, peak runs from 1600 - 2200 ish, which looks an awful lot like domestic usage to me. http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk
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Thursday 8th December 2016 01:14 GMT Boris the Cockroach
Re: 21st Century Economy7
Quote :Smart meters will hopefully allow demand based pricing. This already happens with big business customers, but cheaper off-peak energy could encourage running washing machines and dish washers through the night.
Do that next door to me and you wont have any power at 2am or any other time of day for that matter
Why?
Because those things make a heck of a lot of noise sometimes... even the thump thump pause thump of a neighbours dryer woke me up at times until she was persuded to put it in the kitchen where theres a solid floor and room does'nt ajoin my place
With all the money thats been wasted on solar/wind power and the smart meters , we could have a bigger amount of generating capacity.... and thats whats really driving smart meters... the ability to disconnect us if we start drawing too much load
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Thursday 8th December 2016 14:32 GMT SkippyBing
Re: 21st Century Economy7
'encourage running washing machines and dish washers through the night'
That's fine if you live in a mansion, personally I find the thump thump thump of the wash cycle followed by the turbine like whine as the drum gets up to spin cycle speeds a bit too noisy to sleep through, what with it being just downstairs.
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Wednesday 7th December 2016 20:40 GMT ted frater
I still cant have any meter!
Others have a PV array in addition to the wires that connect them to the grid. We also have a PV array we built ourselves last year. a 3.5KV costing us some £1800, along with an "Outback power systems" inverter. we have this coupled to an alkaline "Alcad" battery bank which came ex BR signalling safety setup. In addition to our 6kva Lister SR2 gen set.It works very well and only the past 2 weeks has the gen come on a couple of times. Rest of the year were on all solar.
In addition i need occasionally lots of power, so also have a 25kva gen set.
needless to say i came to this isolated off grid homestead some 43yrs ago and got then a price for grid leccy. They quoted £1000 for 800 yds of 11,000V overhead to a 5kva s/p tformer.
didnt have that money so bought a 6/1 startamatic for £100, and ran that for some 7 yrs. Moved on from then to other gen sets.
got a price 3 yrs ago for leccy 10 kva 3p same run, £45,000!
Buy a lot of solar panels for that! so even if we wanted a smart meter we cant have one.
Perhaps I should ask to have one fitted see what they say!
its nice being outside the system tho the down side im responsible for it all.
Ted in rural
Dorset.
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Friday 9th December 2016 01:17 GMT John Brown (no body)
Re: I still cant have any meter!
"43yrs ago...quoted £1000 for 800 yds of 11,000V overhead to a 5kva s/p tformer.
3 yrs ago for leccy 10 kva 3p same run, £45,000!"
Sounds about right. House bought 50 years ago, 3-bed semi, detached garage, £4,000, sold a couple years ago for £190,000. Yeah, it sounds like silly money to us "oldies", but compared with what we earned back then, it's about the same.
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Wednesday 7th December 2016 21:02 GMT Anonymous Coward
Do you trust the government and energy firms?
During these times of austerity (a big lie in my opinion), it's amazing how the apparently cash strapped government can magic up vast sums of cash for their wheezes like HS2, Trident, the refurbishment of the House of Commons and Buckingham Palace. Presumably they are subsidising smart meters too.
I think it's OK to be wary of anything the government seem to be over keen about, which includes the switch over to digital, the spread of broadband, CCTV, erosion of civil liberties, vaccines, space ports, robots, AI, cashless society, and now smart meters.
Can anyone else see where this is all going?
Don't forget you can refuse these smart meters. I'm not in the slightest surprised that the average Joe Public is blissfully aware, suckered in by the dodgy Gaz & Leccy adverts.
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Wednesday 7th December 2016 21:47 GMT stu 4
Just leaves the cameras and microphones then we've done Herr May
* Deals with tesco/sainsbury/etc to access every citizens purchases and infer most of their life (number of kids, whether working (times of supermarket), whether really ill, etc, etc, etc) CHECK
* RIPA to monitor all internet usage 24/7 of every citizen ? CHECK
* Smart meter to monitor all citizen's power usage 24/7 ? CHECK
Now we are about the start on our smart lighting/security law esteemed leader:
Our device is a light, camera and microphone rolled into one that fits in the bayonet fitting found in every home of our loyal workers. Every room in the home must have one for your own security against er.. burglers.. and terrorists and stuff.. and oh yeh.. to protect the children.
Of course in reality esteemed leader, it will enable us to extend our already world leading unaudited or controlled CCTV network into every home or place of work giving us almost complete coverage of every citizen.
Heil May!!
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Wednesday 7th December 2016 22:28 GMT Anonymous Coward
No money for the genuinely sick and disabled, but billions down the drain on this rubbish. Oh well we can add that to the £250 billion wasted on PFI, £375 billion wasted bailing out feckless bankers, and £75 billion on the 'war on terror' that gave us ISIS. More neoliberal madness as the sociopaths running this mess want even more monitoring tools.
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Thursday 8th December 2016 07:37 GMT Anonymous Coward
Careful what you wish for
For those people wanting to use these meters to pay for what they use as they use it..... We used to have oil fired heating. It was delivered by tanker on request. At the time, you paid for the delivery at the time as well. So big bill in April to fill the tank then May, June, July, August, September all go by with no bill, then WALLOP, £200 bill to fill up in October, another in November, maybe again in December and January. I'd much rather pay £50/month all year round regardless of what I'm using - I can budget for that and I don't have to find a big chunk of money in December when I'm paying for Christmas too. If I had to do that with leccy at the same time it would cause a real problem. And yes, of course you could save up during the year, but you need the money at the time, and there's nothing more guaranteed in life than something unexpected cropping up just when you've managed to save a few quid...
I really cannot see any benefit to anyone now we can submit our own readings online. I have to agree that more frequent rate changes (and remote switch-off) look by far the most likely suspects in this.
Biting the hand that feeds IT
