back to article UK's climate change dept abolished, but 'smart meters and all our policies strong as ever'

The closure of the UK government's Department of Energy & Climate Change should result in a major rethink of the organisation's shambolic and costly £11bn Smart Meter programme, campaigners have urged. Last week DECC was merged with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to form the newly anointed Department of …

    1. Paul Shirley

      Re: 3% energy saving

      If enough of us switched supplier every year and the meters aren't transferable, I wonder if this is the first real example of an energy saving product that never covers it's own manufacturing costs?

    2. Another User

      Re: 3% energy saving

      That is likely to be a skewed result. a) A smart meter was a novelty. This will quickly wear off. And b) participants in a beta programme are generally more interested because of a)

      1. Neil Barnes Silver badge

        Re: 3% energy saving

        I just got around to replacing some halogen bulbs in the living room - seven of them at 70W each - with seven 5.5W LED bulbs (they've finally got bright enough in the form factor we can live with) and at the same time four 50W halogens in the kitchen with four 4W bulbs... ok, there's still the fridge, oven, and washing machine, but I reckon I'm over 3% right there.

        The person who manages my demand is *me*. The job of the power company is to calculate an average price for me which works for both them and me. This is called 'budgeting' and it seems to be a foreign concept to economists, who really ought to know better - they seem to work on the basis that price is the only driver when selecting whether and how much to use a service. I won't choose to sit in the dark because the power is expensive, or stop baking a loaf of bread half-way through, nor let the fridge warm up.

        If the power companies aren't able to manage a peak demand, they need to get their act together and build some bloody nuclear power stations. I'll pay - over time.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Devil

          Re: 3% energy saving

          Wheres all that too cheap to meter power gone, I think I heard them people talking about it WRT Windscale or something

      2. Down not across

        Re: 3% energy saving

        B) Or something like

        Commodity balances for electricity (Table 5.1)

        5.4

        In 2014, total electricity supply was 359 TWh, a fall of 3.8 per cent on 2013

        .

        Of this, just over 93

        per cent of UK electricity supply was home produced and almost six

        per cent was from imports, net of

        exports. For electricity, supply is totally driven by demand – the impacts of improving energy efficiency

        and warmer temperatures, left final consumption in 2014 at its lowest level since 1995 (see paragraph

        5.10).

        Table 5A below summarises the trend in total generation and supply over the last three years.

        Source: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/447632/DUKES_2015_Chapter_5.pdf

  1. Dan 55 Silver badge
    Devil

    "Smart meters and all our policies will remain as strong as ever."

    There's gravy on that there train!

    1. Anonymous Custard

      Re: "Smart meters and all our policies will remain as strong as ever."

      "Smart meters and all our policies will remain as strong as ever."

      Is that supposed to be a positive qualifier, given how weak and useless they have been so far?

    2. Hollerithevo

      Re: "Smart meters and all our policies will remain as strong as ever."

      I worked for one of the Big Six energy companies when smart meters first raised their heads, so to speak, and there was universal glumness. We knew we'd have to eat most of the costs, and the end consumer, save for a handful, would not give a toss and wouldn't adjust their usage or even look at the thing from one year to the next. Our telephone survey confirmed my own thoughts: people only brightened at the thought of no more estimated bills.

  2. jphn37

    This forum has continually argued against these meters (mostly) because they are technologically deficient. Yep. Hit the reset button, and without the EU update your meters to 21st Century standards (which aren't yet set). So make a standard that's exportable, please, because the whole rest of the world is going to get "Comcast"-ed into buying set-top boxes that are deficient in every way.

    But you gotta admit, it's time to update electrical meters. A KW hour at 1 pm is worth more than a KW hour at 1 am.

    1. Alan Brown Silver badge

      "A KW hour at 1 pm is worth more than a KW hour at 1 am."

      If you have fast-acting nuke plants (LTFRs can load-follow, which means no need for OGT stations) then unless the actual distribution network is overloaded, that's not necessarily true.

      In any case if, you've checked your power bill recently you'll probably notice that "line charges" account for more than half of the bottom line figure (but power charges have not decreased over the days when line charges were rolled into the unit price)

    2. Commswonk

      But you gotta admit, it's time to update electrical meters. A KW hour at 1 pm is worth more than a KW hour at 1 am.

      True, but I have no intention of sitting up until the wee small hours to put on a load of washing or cook dinner, and I very much doubt if Mrs Commswonk would do it either.

      1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
        Windows

        "True, but I have no intention of sitting up until the wee small hours to put on a load of washing or cook dinner, and I very much doubt if Mrs Commswonk would do it either."

        The solution, of course, is an "Internet of Things" remote controlled switch operated at set times by an app on your phone and controlled by a Google cloud system in another country.

        But maybe not, I'll be fucked if I'm going to have a fucking washing machine doing a full spin cycle and dancing around the kitchen at 3am when I have to get up at 6:30 to go to work!

        Icon - what I look like if I don't get my sleep ------------------>

      2. Nigel 11

        Solar panels

        Get yourself some solar panels and the test becomes much easier. You then run the washing machine or dishwasher when the sun is shining and there are kilowatts of electricity available to you that won't cost you anything. If they do variable-tarriff smart metering, it is probable that the same rule of thumb will work well (because there is lots of solar electricity generation feeding the grid these days).

        What the government should be doing is investing in energy storage so that the large amount of exported electricity hitting the grid on sunny days becomes a solution rather than a problem.

        In passing does anyone know why NiFe batteries are not on anyone's radar? Their disadvantages (bulky/heavy, electrically leaky, lowish self-limiting maximum discharge rate) are not significant if the application is to store solar energy in fixed battery banks for a mere few hours or days on a scale ranging from a garden shed to a power-station-sized warehouse. The advantages are cheap and abundant raw materials (nickel, Iron, caustic potash), extremely long service life, and being extremely forgiving of "abuse" such as overcharging, overload, or discharge to "flat". They are reputedly as good as new after a decade sitting around in a discharged state. They can be short-circuited and will survive the experience. They're expensive to buy right now, because they are not manufactured in anything like the same volume as lead-acid batteries (which have a service life of only a few years even if they are used optimally).

        1. Alan Brown Silver badge

          Re: Solar panels

          "You then run the washing machine or dishwasher when the sun is shining and there are kilowatts of electricity available to you"

          Have you quantified how much power you get off a rooftop panel? (Hint: It's not enough to run a washing machine with integral heater, except on the very biggest installations)

          WRT NiFe: you've stated why they're not in use: Compared with lead-acid, they're vastly more expensive. There's probably more potential in flow batteries.

          1. Nigel 11

            Re: Solar panels

            I have a 2.75kWp roof array, South facing, almost perfect inclination. On a sunny day in summer it outputs 2.4kW (precisely as predicted in advance by the supplier from its geometry). The washing machine is rated at 2.5kW. So it is (almost) enough to run a washing machine, despite being less than the 3 to 4 kWp which all but the smallest houses have roof space for. (I have three panels less because of a loft conversion and not wanting to have panels over the windows).

            re NiFe: the raw materials are all cheaper than for lead-acid. The higher cost is because there is no mass manufacturing. But if they were being used for grid-scale storage, whether in millions of garden sheds all over the country or in power-station-size warehouses, that would generate the economy of scale, and the hugely longer service life makes the long-term economics better. Manufacture of NiFe is pretty low-tech, compared even to lead-acid, let alone LiPo. Elon Musk is doing a good job with Tesla / Powerwall / LiPo. It's obviously in his automotive interests to do everything he can with LiPo technology, and I wish him well.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Angel

        IoT

        Your IoT washer will do it for you, Sortted!

      4. jphn37

        But a "Smart" meter would be able to communicate with your fusebox at your choosing and turn on a breaker or the device itself when prices drop to $0.0X per kwh. That's what current rollout meters do not do, but which wouldn't even be hard to program; trigger a relay when a datum point is reached?

        Anyhow, that's how I'd do it if I had the skills. Six or eight programmable relay leads and IoT protocols for those who want a "wired" (WiFi) house.

        And I'm American, so I don't know Mrs. Commswonk, but we'd ask her son, or granddaughter to do it for her, right?

        Anyhow, please don't "shoot" me. I'm just thinking aloud. I just haven't heard of a good, robust, secure SMART meter yet, and it's 2016, which just kinda strikes me as ridiculous as Comcast set-top boxes.

  3. tiggity Silver badge

    Samrt Meters - no thanks

    Ignoring all the (various) security implications...

    I still fail to see why seeing some live estimate of what I am spending on fuel will make the slightest difference to my fuel use ...

    I can however see it having an effect on energy wasting muppets with wasteful activities such as patio heaters, having house heating at scorchio levels etc. who might finally get a clue that they may as well just cut out the middleman and burn bundles of notes, but most people tend not to be wasteful of fuel use as they already know its very expensive so smart meters seem overkill for a tiny percentage of wastrels.

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: Samrt Meters - no thanks

      Sticking an electricity meter monitor around the meter wire will do just as well, only without the security problems.

    2. Commswonk
      FAIL

      Re: Smart Meters - no thanks

      I can however see it having an effect on energy wasting muppets with wasteful activities such as patio heaters, having house heating at scorchio levels etc

      Well I can't; to the best of my knowledge patio heaters run on bottled gas so "smart metering" them might be a bit of a challenge. Come to think of it smart metering only applies to electrical supplies so anyone who has the house heating a bit high by burning gas is only going to find out how much the pump is consuming.

      1. Fuzz

        Re: Smart Meters - no thanks

        "Come to think of it smart metering only applies to electrical supplies"

        No smart metering is for gas and electrical supplies (but only gas of the piped variety).

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Smart Meters - no thanks

        "to the best of my knowledge patio heaters run on bottled gas"

        Our company has electric ones on the Balcony, as do most of the Pub's round north london

  4. Marvin O'Gravel Balloon Face

    Hard to believe it's been ten years since David Miliband decided to patronise us all with his Utopian plans for carbon credit cards and citizens environmental contracts. What we need is some kind of government wiki where we can debate these ideas in a mature, sensible fashion.

    Like last time.

  5. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    In Saturday's Times Matthew Paris was musing on the Conservative party's nut-cases (that might not have been the exact term he used) who will never be content with anything - Brexit won't be exit enough etc. It struck me that one way to deal with them would be to "promote" them to a department with a death march project and then, after the next PAC/NAO report condemning the lack of progress, publicly label them as incompetent and replace them with the next in line. It might seem cynical to do this rather than put someone competent in charge but the definition of a death march project is that it's unsalvageable so this simply re-purposes them.

    I think Leadsom has been set up to fail with both smart meters and the rural payments scheme on her plate.

    1. Commswonk

      I think Leadsom has been set up to fail with both smart meters and the rural payments scheme on her plate.

      That may or may not be true, but I'm not sure that I would place much store in Mathew Parris's musings. He penned a fairly nasty piece in the Spectator which mainly served to define him as a bad loser. It attracted some critical correspondence to the Editor.

      Anyway if Andrea Leadsom wants to get a bit of credit she could do much worse than simply ditching the smart metering scheme sooner rather than later*. And the rural payments scheme can easily be described as an inherited mess over which she could exercise no control.

      * Like, er, immediately.

      1. Dan 55 Silver badge

        What, and risk a fine from the EU? If she drops it, it's got to be unofficially until Brexit day. Completely ignore targets and remove pressure from electricity companies to roll it out.

        1. Alan Brown Silver badge

          "What, and risk a fine from the EU?"

          The thing about most EU legislation and rules is that they are onply implemented if the national government WANTS to implement them. Blaming them barnpots in Brussels is just a convenient excuse.

          1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

            "The thing about most EU legislation and rules is that they are onply implemented if the national government WANTS to implement them."

            Well, not quite. Each member state has to implement the legislation, but has leeway in how strictly in waht form they are implemented. The French tend to lean towards the "meh!" end of the scale while the UK is more germanic than the Germans, hence all the "blame" being put on Brussels. Not to mention that as the 2nd biggest economy in the EU, the UK has a significant influence on creating the EU legislation in the first place (in fact it's often UK lead legislation that our own gov. then "blames" on Brussels)

            1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

              "he UK hasd a significant influence on creating the EU legislation in the first place"

              But we'll still have to follow it if we want to retain the same trading rights with the EU. But it's all about control, isn't it?

    2. allthecoolshortnamesweretaken

      "It struck me that one way to deal with them would be to "promote" them to a department with a death march project and then, after the next PAC/NAO report condemning the lack of progress, publicly label them as incompetent and replace them with the next in line."

      Why do you think TM put The BoJoTM in the FO?

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        "Why do you think TM put The BoJoTM in the FO?"

        To start WWIII?

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Article 50

    If you say that you aren't doing something because you'll be leaving then you will have invoked article 50 and you then have 2 years to complete the exit.

    It is therefore wise to pretend that nothing has changed until article 50 is formally invoked.

    Yes this is stupid, but then so is Brexit.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Smart meter, as in Smart TV !!

    What exactly is Smart about these meters, do they actively save me money, do they adjust my supplier to the cheapest available on watt by watt basis, or do they simply tell me I'm using electricity, which I already know... ...no it's ok I know the answer, they don't do anything useful for me at all, just make the meter reader redundant (I assume someone still reads the meter, though they keep trying to get me to do it !!)

    1. Neil Barnes Silver badge

      Re: Smart meter, as in Smart TV !!

      On the other hand, from an engineer's point of view - a truly smart meter should be able to locate and negotiate the best rate from suppliers on a minute to minute basis...

      1. Paul Shirley

        Re: Smart meter, as in Smart TV !!

        "locate and negotiate the best rate"

        Suddenly it's more clear why none of the energy companies have compatible meters. Wouldn't want the suckers actually getting any benefit.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "'smart meters and all our policies wrong as ever'"

    FTFY

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Shockingly Inaccurate

    Posting anon because I work on the project and would probably get into all sorts of trouble otherwise.

    DECC are not the people in charge of Smart Meters, DCC are (https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/).

    Communication with the DCC is via a defined standard (https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/implementation/design-and-assurance/interface-specifications/dcc-user-interface-specification/)

    Smart metering equipment must comply to GBCS so is intrinsically inter-operative (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/380611/GBCS_v0.8.1.docx). There also SMETS and CHTS if you really want to party on with your standards hat on.

    No-one has a proper smart meter, they don't go live until next month.

    1. Richard Barnes

      Re: Shockingly Inaccurate

      So, since you're a man in the know, would you have a smart meter yourself?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Shockingly Inaccurate

        Umm...not a MAN in the know, guess again. Yep,I'd happily get set up with smart meters.

    2. Alan Brown Silver badge

      Re: Shockingly Inaccurate

      "No-one has a proper smart meter, they don't go live until next month."

      In other words everyone who's already been sold a 'smart meter' is going to have to go through the entire exercise again?

      Doesn't seem that smart to me....

    3. Dan 55 Silver badge
      Devil

      Re: Shockingly Inaccurate

      "Smart DCC Ltd is a wholly owned subsidiary of Capita plc and is regulated by Ofgem."

      We're doomed!

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Shockingly Inaccurate

      "they don't go live until next month."

      It's next month. Have they gone live? What do readers think?

      Here ya go:

      http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/08/17/smart_meters_delayed_again/

  10. Kane
    Black Helicopters

    Spy boxes in our homes...

    'Although, DECC has insisted that GCHQ has been working in close partnership with the department "since the very early design stage of the rollout"'

    A chilling statement if ever I heard one.

    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: Spy boxes in our homes...

      Aye, and I'll bet it's not to make sure best practices are followed in terms of data security and hardening against hacking.

  11. Dave 15

    smart meter

    What is smart about it? So it tells me how much energy I am using... so what I can tell by the speed of the spinning wheel now. Worse it takes power to tell me something I don't need to know.

    TBH its a bit like the energy comparison on a washing machine... I need to wash my clothes, I will change the machine when it breaks, I will buy the cheapest... regardless.....

    Oh, and my current washing machine uses hot water from my hot water tank, heated directly by gas... more efficient than the EU mandated cold fill on modern machines...

    Think logically.... my gas boiler burns gas to heat water and the machine uses it. Your shiny new machine uses a power station to heat water to steam, which it uses (not very efficiently) to drive a turbine, which (not efficiently) generates electricity which is then transported by a lossy (electric cables lose energy) system to my house where my washing machine uses a not particularly efficient system to turn th electricity to heat.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: smart meter

      "a not particularly efficient system to turn th electricity to heat."

      I'm not sure about this last bit. Turning other forms of energy to heat seems to be something that happens particularly easily, especially when you don't want it. (Burnt fingers from the gear on my strimmer).

    2. dajames

      Re: smart meter

      TBH its a bit like the energy comparison on a washing machine... I need to wash my clothes, I will change the machine when it breaks, I will buy the cheapest... regardless.....

      Buying the cheapest is seldom, if ever, the most economical course of action. You need to consider Total Cost of Ownership: the cost of the power used, the cost of spares, the cost of waiting in for the repairman, the cost of waiting for the replacement to be delivered, the cost of disposal of the old machine ... it all adds up.

      You're right, though, it is a bit like the smart meter discussion ... the decisions are all based on carefully considering only a few of the relevant data, and that without understanding them.

    3. Old Tom
      Boffin

      Re: smart meter

      "Oh, and my current washing machine uses hot water from my hot water tank, heated directly by gas... more efficient than the EU mandated cold fill on modern machines..."

      Yes but does it 'run the tap' until the hot water comes through? Most of the hot water taken in will be the neo-ambient water in the pipe from the hot tank or combi-boiler.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: smart meter

        I think Which checked and found most washing machine never get to the temperature set on the dial anyway.

    4. Avalanche

      Re: smart meter

      "Oh, and my current washing machine uses hot water from my hot water tank, heated directly by gas... more efficient than the EU mandated cold fill on modern machines..."

      Citation needed. As far as I know there is no such EU mandate.

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