back to article A Brit cloud biz and an angry customer wanting a refund: A Love Story

A Reg reader has passed on the most beautiful email exchange we've seen this year, between himself and UK backup business Monster Cloud, after the company suddenly bumped up its prices mid-contract. The London-based reseller – now known as XL Cloud – came under fire from customers earlier this month when punters who had paid £ …

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      The first instinct of a business that doesn't add actual value is to cling on to every penny they make, because it may be their last one.

      It appears they are indeed determined to close the shop ASAP.

      If you're not in control, you're at the mercy of those that are. QED.

  1. JimmyPage Silver badge
    Flame

    Oh, the *other* problem with resellers ...

    is that you are not the suppliers customer - the reseller is. And generally, the reason resellers are used is because the supplier prefers to have *them* assume the risk (i.e. chasing the debts) than do it themselves. Resellers are effectively a financial buffer.

    So when a *single* customer has a beef with a reseller, who will the supplier want to keep sweet at all costs ?

    Sell also: car dealers.

  2. ChunkyMonkey
    FAIL

    "I'm sorry, did you want our help or did you think this was somewhere you could just be abusive?"

    A true dick! Good news is this person will most likely lose their job and hopefully earn a life lesson. I expect this will be the start of the end for Monster Dicks and the whole support team.

    People just don’t know how to communicate these days. If people stopped trying to point score with every email/txt and all the rest of the social media things, the world would be a better place. And Monster Dicks mights not be facing another black mark to their name.

  3. Mark C 2

    Engineers....nope

    Re-selling / allocating storage, managing accounts, etc...Technicians, not Engineers, not by a long way.

    1. Chris King

      "Everyone's an Engineer"

      In my book, that makes them "Account Administrators", not anything Technical or Engineering.

      The word "Engineer" gets bandied around a lot in the UK, because it's not a protected title. CEng, IEng and EngTech are protected in civil law, but that's about it - and even with a CEng you can't even call yourself an "engineer" in mainland Europe unless you're on the FEANI register.

      As a result of all this, you can be L1 telephone support and still have a job title like "Customer Service Engineer".

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "Everyone's an Engineer"

        As a result of all this, you can be L1 telephone support and still have a job title like "Customer Service Engineer".

        Yup. I have actually seen "sanitation engineer" somewhere. No price for guessing what specific area of the building that person was responsible for...

        1. Chris King

          Re: "Everyone's an Engineer"

          This, in an industry that has suffered the Blight of the Artificially-Inflated Job Title.

          Rockstar Coders, Ninja Sysadmins, Database Gurus - hell, Google even has a "Security Princess" ! (Yeah, I know it sounds cheezy, but Google it if you don't believe me)

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: "Everyone's an Engineer"

            I thought they added engineer/director/vice-president etc to job titles where someone of that level wasn't required to justify paying you less than the market rate and hoping your ego would compensate for the difference....

            1. This post has been deleted by its author

          2. Solmyr ibn Wali Barad

            Re: "Everyone's an Engineer"

            "Rockstar Coders, Ninja Sysadmins, Database Gurus"

            And DevOps Borats.

            1. Roj Blake Silver badge

              Re: "Everyone's an Engineer"

              Big Data Evangelist is another one.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: "Everyone's an Engineer"

                > Big Data Evangelist is another one.

                Luckily Big Data wasn't called Fat Data.

          3. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
            Flame

            Re: "Everyone's an Engineer"

            > Rockstar Coders, Ninja Sysadmins, Database Gurus

            Avoid anything like that, and if given half the occasion, burn it with fire!

            This is why I barf when IEEE design up another advertisement for

            ★ ★ ★ Rockstars of [some IT stuff] ★ ★ ★.

            (Next up: "Rockstars of Counterinsurgency", "Ninjas of Extraordinary Rendition", "Mavericks of Legalized Illegal Surveillance", "Gurus of Quantitative Easing" etc.)

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "Everyone's an Engineer"

              I thought they added engineer/director/vice-president etc to job titles where someone of that level wasn't required to justify paying you less than the market rate and hoping your ego would compensate for the difference....

              In my company we have to call them engineers 'cause it looks like we are sending someone skilled to the customer, cable monkey is apparently derogatory.

              1. Captain DaFt

                Re: "Everyone's an Engineer"

                "In my company we have to call them engineers 'cause it looks like we are sending someone skilled to the customer"

                I'd rather they sent a "trained technician". At least I'd have the illusion he'd at least slept through a training class.

                "Sending an engineer" sounds too much like I'm about to be railroaded.

          4. Tom Melly

            Re: "Everyone's an Engineer"

            In fairness to Google (and iirc), they encourage their staff to take on nonsensical job titles, partly as a cheeky response the job-title nonsense we are all moaning about.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "Everyone's an Engineer"

        Yesterday I couldn't spell engineer.

        Today I are one.

        1. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge
          Headmaster

          Re: "Everyone's an Engineer"

          You spelt injernear wrong

      3. glen waverley

        Re: "Everyone's an Engineer"

        I've always assumed that "customer service engineer" was one of those piss-take titles like sanitation engineer (mentioned below). Never thought it was a serious job description.

        1. Triggerfish

          Re: "Everyone's an Engineer"

          Quite amazed me when I first went abroad and talking to locals said I was an engineer, they actually made comments like you must be clever, rather than what you repair cars? Shows how much we value one of the things that actually made Britain the force it used to be.

      4. zen1

        Re: "Everyone's an Engineer"

        I's a PC tecnican & custodial/sanitary engineer. hope I get to drive the train real fast some day!

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Engineers require a BEng, ~BEng = technician at best

    Given the wide spread abuse of "Engineer" as a title to mean something other than a professional holding at least a recognised degree in Engineering perhaps it is time to change the title of Engineering to something trademarked and enforceable in the event of misuse.

    "Boffin" up for grabs? Bbof courses available from a local University near you

    1. Solmyr ibn Wali Barad

      Re: Engineers require a BEng, ~BEng = technician at best

      John Cohn has "Mad Scientist" written on his businesscard. Seems close enough.

  5. Valarian

    Adieu != Ado

    That is all.

  6. David Nash Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Adieu != Ado

    Upvoted. I've seen that before from people who think they are being clever: "without further adieu"

    1. Jeffrey Nonken

      Re: Adieu != Ado

      Much Adieu About Nothing?

  7. sysconfig

    Strange outfit...

    Couldn't find any clue as to who actually runs this Monster Cloud business. But it appears that the domain is registered to a sole trader (though not with real name, which might be in breach with Nominet's rules, but I can't be bothered to confirm that right now).

    The terms of service don't name who they apply to, which is bad practice or may even render them invalid. And surely these terms will not hold water either:

    You agree that, except where otherwise specified in these terms, fees paid to us are not refundable on any basis.

    We reserve the right to alter pricing, including ceasing to offer elements of our Services. We will inform you by email if the charge for a service is to be altered. You can then decide if you want to continue to use such service. Your continued use of the service after the proposed fee modification has been notified will be considered acceptance of the proposed fee modification.

    Well, I'm not a lawyer, but my feeling is that they leave a lot to be desired. I wouldn't be surprised if this Monster Cloud outfit is just a single person (nothing wrong with that per se) and that neither marketing nor legal department actually exist. This would also explain why he got so emotionally involved, as if this was a personal issue. If he was an engineer of the business, he'd have said something along these lines: "sorry, we're the tech guys here, but I've forwarded it straight to accounts, thank you".

    Since the "engineer" was the first to mention legal, I would pick him up on that if I were the customer here. Letter of action; afterwards straight to small claims court or higher (depending on the amount of money we're talking about). I'd be surprised if he didn't refund after the letter though.

    1. SolidSquid

      Re: Strange outfit...

      Most of what's in there is, afaik, acceptable as far as contracts go. If they increase the price you have a legal right to terminate the contract, and I believe they're required to give you a set amount of notice. The problem arises with the non-refundable lump sum for 12 months of service. That's not a subscription at that point, if there were to be no additional charges then they've already *paid* for the service, and I'm pretty sure Monster Cloud is required to provide that service for the full duration

      edit: There may be exceptions to this in the case of abuse etc, but I don't see any reason why they'd apply in this case

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Strange outfit...

      "Couldn't find any clue as to who actually runs this Monster Cloud business. But it appears that the domain is registered to a sole trader (though not with real name, which might be in breach with Nominet's rules, but I can't be bothered to confirm that right now)."

      Their web site gives a registered address in Regent St, London but there's no Monster Cloud on webcheck on companies house.

      The whois registration address is given as Manchester and the registrant as Clever Consultants with a web address whose hosting has lapsed but with the same whois address as monstercloud.

      Companies House has two Clever Consultants Limited, one dissolved with a registered address in Argyle St, not far from Regent St but not the same. The other has a registered address in Woking. Whether either was/is connected with the Clever Consultants (not limited) responsible for the registrations is not clear.

      1. jonathanb Silver badge

        Re: Strange outfit...

        The Regent St address is a Regus serviced office building. They also do mail forwarding.

      2. jonathanb Silver badge

        Re: Strange outfit...

        The Argyle St address is a mail forwarding service. The Woking address is residential, so probably a real address.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Strange outfit...

          The Manchester address is also a mail forwarding address.

    3. Adam 52 Silver badge

      Re: Strange outfit...

      Sole trader you say? So no limited liability and lots of customers suing you personally. In that position I'd be very polite.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Strange outfit...

        "Sole trader you say?"

        Not clear. If the Clever Consultants who registered the domain is the extant registered limited company, then no.

    4. Updraft102

      Re: Strange outfit...

      How refreshing it is to see people recognizing that simply having something in a EULA or other such shrinkwrap contract that someone lazily clicked through doesn't mean that contract has the force of law. The corporations like MS and their willing accomplices in government (such as those who brought the abomination known as the DMCA to America) sure have the people bamboozled.

      The most recent example was a discussion that followed the news of the release of that patcher that re-enables updates on Windows 7 when installed on Kaby Lake or Ryzen platforms. My opponent in the debate (if you could really call it that) was arguing that MS was probably going to bring legal action against the patch author, on the basis that the Windows EULA forbids reverse engineering of any Windows component, which the author of the patcher had already said he'd done, not to mention that it was modifying Windows components, which the EULA also forbids.

      Never mind that the loose definition of reverse engineering that would encompass what the patch author had done would also prohibit most debugging of any programs developed on Windows, which MS has permitted for decades (obviously). Never mind also that MS has never taken action against the authors of any other patchers, like the ones that enable third-party themes in Windows, or any other of a myriad of programs that customize Windows without patching any files (Classic Theme Restorer, WindowBlinds, 7+ Taskbar Tweaker, Old New Explorer, etc.) would have also required "reverse engineering" of Windows such that the author of this most recent patcher had done.

      It's always the same... "you're not buying Windows! It belongs to Microsoft, so they can do whatever they want with Windows (and therefore any PC that has Windows on it)," and other such assorted stuff. MS seems to believe that putting Windows 10 on my machine essentially transfers ownership of that PC over to Microsoft, and there are a lot of people out there who would agree. It reminds me of a vulgar episode of South Park entitled (I think) "Human Cent-iPad." I won't go into the details, but the thrust of it is that the victims have ostensibly agreed to whatever Apple wants when they clicked "Accept" on the EULA without reading it, and Apple then went and grabbed them off the street and made them part of the product that is referenced in the episode title.

      The bottom line is that these shrinkwrap contracts are on shaky ground, and they've never been put to the test in court. MS or Monster or anyone else can put quite literally any language they want in their EULA, but it doesn't mean it's valid. It also doesn't mean it's all meaningless; it would be foolish to think the EULA means exactly nothing. The reality lies somewhere in the middle, and we don't really know where it is. Maybe one day a precedent will be established that a Windows buyer has, in fact, "bought Windows," which the EULA-thumpers tell us we haven't. That doesn't mean the buyer has the rights to use Windows trademarks or redistribute bits of Windows code (or all of it)... but it would mean that things like prohibiting people from modifying components of their own Windows installations are not among the powers that Microsoft has.

  8. tentimes

    It's a one man band

    This is the one guy who runs everything and he is emotionally fragile given recent events. As someone else said, an employee would never answer emails like this. My guess is all the emails, including from "accounts" will be signed "Monster Cloud" as there are not really separate departments.

    1. Darryl

      Re: It's a one man band

      That was my thought too. Some guy working out of his home office reselling storage space. He's Accounts, Marketing, Support, Custodial, HR, and Social Committee all rolled into one

      1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

        Re: It's a one man band

        Time for some due diligence and go ring at the company door.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: It's a one man band

      Monday morning he's gunna have an angry meeting, get himself on the carpet, really tell himself some home truths and fire himself

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Oh dear

    This is what happens when you let techies with poor people skills communicate.

    The initial e-mail from the reg reader was unneccesarily brash and unconstructive.

    The reply from the company was unacceptable regardless of the above fact.

    A PR nightmare caused by clever people lacking interpersonal skills.

  10. Stevie

    Bah!

    The last time someone accused me of threatening them in an email I agreed to a phone conferece with me, the accuser and our bosses to appologise.

    The meeing was cancelled when it became apparent to my boss that:

    a) I expected the other person to appologise for accusing me of threatening them

    2) I intended to ask the other person's supervisor to get the poor sod some professional help.

    The final nail in the meeting-coffin was when I produced the unredacted message from my "sent" folder and challenged both supervisors to show me exactly where I had made any sort of threat to anyone whatsoever.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Parent J2 Global

    Enough said.

    Dealt with them, now on banned list of "suppliers". Read any contracts with them with a microscope and 15 lawyers at hand.

    1. Michael Strorm Silver badge

      Re: Parent J2 Global

      Either you're suggesting that Monster Cloud itself is owned by J2 (which doesn't appear to be the case) or your comment is misleading by not making clear who it's aimed at.

      J2 Global own LiveDrive- mentioned in the article as the company whose price increases hit *resellers* like Monster Cloud- but it doesn't own Monster Cloud itself.

      If you want to criticise J2 on that basis, fair enough, but you can't blame them for Monster Cloud's behaviour.

  12. Wiltshire

    This is the kind of reason we don't let our "software engineers" anywhere near customers.

    They might (e.g.):

    a) tell the customer their idea is f**king stupid

    or (even worse)

    b) tell the customer something is simple and can be done quickly and cheaply.

    I didn't get where today by telling the customers the truth.

    1. Bronek Kozicki

      I am a software developer. And God help me if I ever need to speak to client directly. Not because I would say 1) or 2) , but more likely:

      1) I might use the language they do not understand

      2) or even worse, language they think they understand (while in fact they understand wrongly)

      3) or put marketing in bad light

      4) or make something seem easier than it actually is (from deployment PoV)

      5) or give away internal stuff they need not to know

      6) or (most likely to happen) imply the above

      So, the rule is I DO NOT SPEAK TO CLIENTS, full stop. The lost time this might cause is not worth it.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Reall classy Monster Cloud! Well done! Kudos!

  14. SolidSquid

    You know, it just occurred to me that Monster Cloud's representative explicitly stated that, because they were "abusive", the company will intentionally drag their feet over giving a refund beyond what they usually would need to. Are they actually allowed to do that kind of thing? Seems petty as hell, but also seems like they're not acting in good faith

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Definitely not acting in good faith. Nice of him/her to have documented it for the legal action by the person seeking refund / compensation.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    If you're affected by this, surely the common sense thing to do, would be download your data and then get an account directly with livedrive.com?

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Google

    I've got to love that if you google for monster cloud, this register news item is below the companies site LOL

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