back to article Alleged Peeping Tom claims First Amendment right to upskirt

The Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court is mulling just whether an alleged upskirter's right to snap women's nether regions is defended by the US constitution, and indeed whether women who unwittingly expose themselves in public have any right to privacy. Michael Robertson, 31, was cuffed back in 2010 for allegedly attempting …

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              1. Stacy

                Re: @Stacy

                @Old Handle

                Try reading the comments again, there are plenty saying that is someone is wearing a skirt then she is asking for it, or saying that it is no different to to taking a photo of a face when someone doesn't want it.

                Or it is OK if the situation makes it easy (the comment about being above or below).

                I'm going to get down voted for this again, but seriously, the comments here do scare me - I may be that person in the skirt or dress, and these people may be on a train when I am commuting. So much acceptance of something like this is just wrong in this day and age.

                1. localzuk Silver badge

                  Re: @Stacy

                  The issue is entirely a legal one. Morally, this behaviour is wrong. But the law doesn't work by moral judgements, it works by interpreting legal documents. As it stands, the interpretation by the perv here appears to be the legally correct one.

  1. Thought About IT

    Look at these appallingly salacious pictures!

    "For example, say a woman is breast feeding in public and someone who is morally opposed to this ... takes a picture."

    Does Michelle Menken work for the Dail Wail?

  2. Aristotles slow and dimwitted horse

    Oh right...

    I thought we'd grown in understanding and progressed beyond the base "she asked for it..." debate.

    Obviously not.

  3. Marvin O'Gravel Balloon Face

    Seems clear enough to me that if it's illegal to push a camera under a changing room door to capture women in various states of undress, the same should go for pushing a camera up a skirt.

    Both skirt and changing room door serve to protect the dignity and modesty of the person in question, and any violation of that principle is a violation of the reasonably held expectation of a person to travel unmolested on public transport.

  4. Patrick R

    Plead guilty, case closed.

    Are people changing or is Justice doomed to evolve the opposite way of "civilization"?

    1. Stacy

      Re: Plead guilty, case closed.

      Justice changing civilisation, or blood sucking morally bankrupt lawyers?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Plead guilty, case closed.

        I have to laugh. There are plenty of women who will wear a bikini in public (on hot days of course..usually). Yet a flash of their underwear is a problem? I can't see the difference. Unless they are of the transparent frilly variety or they are worried about having dirty underwear (wash yer bums!).

        People make such a fuss over nudity and yet here they are not even nude. Are we going backwards to where even a flash of an ankle is 'risque'? Stupid prudes.

        1. Charles 9

          Re: Plead guilty, case closed.

          The thing is the amount of exposure is at the person's discretion. If a woman feels bold enough to wear a bikini, then she doesn't care too much about showing leg. On the other hand, a woman in a full-length skirt or other very covering attire is basically setting the limits on what she wants seen. The choice of clothing suggests a person's attitude about exposure; should we not respect that?

  5. paulc

    Charged him under the wrong charge...

    pure and simple... the DA needs a good kicking and the case thrown out...

  6. MrXavia

    Actually it does sound like the law is badly written, so this might be permitted by law..

    No matter how you look at it, sticking a camera under a skirt is an invasion of privacy....

    The law should be simple... If you can reasonably expect privacy, then taking a photo of you in that situation is wrong..

    But WTF is 'partially nude'? is it a quantum state of clothing?

    1. Charles 9

      Put it this way. If no nudity at all means you're fully clothed, and full nudity means complete exposure, then partial nudity means something that would be necessary for what we call "decency" is missing...but NOT ALL of it. A woman wearing only a bikini bottom, for example, is partially nude.

  7. Graham Marsden
    WTF?

    I just want to point out the irony...

    That the next story from El Reg is "Ooh! My naughty SKIRT keeps riding UP! Yup, it's ... INTERNET EXPLORER"

  8. Ian 55

    Aren't lawyers wonderful?

    That is all.

  9. Roger Jenkins

    Assult?

    I agree that when in public that one cannot have an expectation of privacy and that anyone may photograph you without permission. Lets forget for a moment the privacy issues and instead, why not ask, if someone comes along and shoves a camera up your dress, could that not be treated as common assult rather than under indecency laws?

    1. Irony Deficient

      Re: Assault?

      Roger, the statutory common assault of England and Wales is only applicable when the victim “apprehends immediate unlawful violence” (in context, violence here means touching). As far as I can tell*, assault in Massachusetts is still a common law crime, and so would be generally defined as “attempted battery”. If the Peeping Tom in question did not touch his “subject”, and had no intention of doing so, then it would not be a Massachusetts assault, since it would not have been an attempted battery. However, there are many varieties of statutory assault in Massachusetts; perhaps being charged with one of those might have been more suitable in this case.

      * — I am not a lawyer.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    blimey, what in the world will they make of that x-ray photoshopping technique...

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Partially Nude?

    I can't speak for this specific incident but just for example, consider this...hot girls frequently wear VERY short skirts and thongs out to clubs. If that kind of outfit wasn't meant to attract attention, what was it intended for? If you can see it with your eyes, why is a photo worse?

    Some of the outfits I have seen leave nothing to the imagination, damn near every crevice is clearly visible when simply walking down the street. The girls at Hooters have more clothes on.

    Seems to me that if you want to put your body on public display then you have to live with the consequences. Not saying you have to wear a bhurka but maybe something less revealing would be in order.

    Same thing goes for beach attire, thong bikini's leave no doubt that the girl is at the very least, a bit of an exhibitionist. So now you can't take pictures at the beach? Ever see those reality shows about LasVegas bartenders?

    If you don't want anyone looking at your naughty bits, perhaps you might try not making them so obvious?

    How can you have any expectation of privacy in conjunction with your false modesty?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Partially Nude?

      I don't get why they bother to even wear those small bikinis... Oh right that would be because nudity is bad.. Sometimes I wish I lived in Germany... they have the right idea when it comes to body image, just get naked and who cares! (seriously if you go to Germany and are body conscious, avoid the saunas/spas they will politely ask you to leave if you wear anything. I find it a very refreshing attitude!)

      1. Lamont Cranston

        Re: I don't get why they bother to even wear those small bikinis

        Nudity is not bad, per se, but naked people always look better with something on, in my experience.

  12. Sir Sham Cad

    Partial Nudity as point of law

    But I thought they had the right to bare arms over there?

  13. chris lively

    This is a difficult problem. The defense lawyer is good. If I'm ever in trouble I know who to hire as this is likely to go up a few court levels.

    Going forward how do you construct a law so that photographers have permission to photograph people in public, without getting their permission, but prevent certain types of photos taken?

    The upskirt photo is not of a naked person and the subject isn't in a state of undress. If you claim angle of the shot, then how do you define what is or is not acceptable without impacting a whole class of valid photography.

    In short, I'm not sure I see a way to legally define this. Maybe the law should be a little less exacting and instead leave it up to a jury to decide what an acceptable photograph is... However, that way will easily lead to a large number of "wrongly photo'd" cases and huge expenses.

    Yes, upskirt photos are obviously wrong and should be punishable. I just don't see how that can be withou impacting a lot of other things. So, kudos to the defense attorney. She's going to "win" this one.

  14. steve 124

    And just in time for Christmas 2013...

    Introducing the new Nike Airforce One-Shot.

    It's ergonomically designed soles will let you dominate the court while it's built in bluetooth enabled 20Megapixel camera means you'll never miss a shot... on the court or on the bench!

  15. Brian Allan

    If you're going to be ashamed of a picture taken in public, cover up! Simple as that. If you wish to go commando, expect the worst... maybe a picture on the web of your exposed parts!?

  16. Chozo
    Devil

    Not out of the bush yet

    Was the perv uploading or selling the photos for distribution on a specialist website? because we all know how ugly things get when the copyright lawyers come out to feed.

  17. Roger Mew

    unskirted

    I wear a kilt a lot of the time and am told that if someone takes a photo of me deliberately then that is invasion of my privacy, then whether or not the person with the camera stuffs it up my kilt is surely academic,as it becomes a case of invasion of privacy.

    I was out the other day and a woman with a shortish skirt bent over the handlebars of her push chair, baby carriage. I got a full view, nice white ones with a bit of lace around the legs, either she was not used to wearing skirts, or she enjoyed doing it, probably the former, however, should I have photographed her then surely that is an infringement of invasion of privacy laws in as much as she did nit give her permission.

  18. Chromatix

    Okay let's take a step back and discuss this properly.

    First of all, the First Amendment doesn't apply. This should be plainly obvious - it's about what you can *say*, not what you can *see* or *record*.

    The laws that *should* apply are the ones about privacy and public decency, and the court should consider how they interact with each other here. My take on the matter is:

    Public decency laws essentially require people to keep certain parts of their bodies *private*. The precise definition of which parts varies considerably over time and jurisdiction, but the typical standard in Western society is hips-to-upper-thigh for both men and women, plus most of the breasts for women.

    Clothing which performs this task adequately is readily available, and (for women) usually relies on the assumption that an observer's eyes are above the subject's waist. Even short skirts are generally designed to hang down to cover the area between the thighs when the wearer sits down. Underwear is intended as a backstop, to deal with momentary malfunctions of the skirt's normal dynamics (eg. wind) and corner cases where the central assumption is invalid (small children, escalators, ladders). Some people enhance this by wearing shorts or a petticoat under their skirt.

    Note that even in those corner cases, people are generally expected by society to avert their gaze. Parents of young children are to teach them that looking up skirts is wrong, and try to prevent them from doing so - in return, most people understand that small children are not malicious. Therefore, a woman wearing a skirt and normal underwear can be considered to have a "reasonable expectation of privacy" against deliberate exposure of their *underwear*, never mind what said underwear covers, to the extent that their skirt would normally keep it covered.

    So now we come to the breastfeeding woman on the Tube. Here, the breast is exposed more than normal societal standards expect, although the nipple itself spends most of the time covered by the baby's head. Most sensible people would agree that this is not obscene - it does not "outrage public decency". At the same time, this woman has deliberately exposed that part of her to view, so she no longer has an expectation of privacy regarding it - until, of course, she finishes feeding her child and covers it up again. In my experience, many (not all) women try to find somewhere with fewer people to watch her - for example, near one of the shortcut passages in IKEA, rather than beside the main paths.

    That is the difference between an upskirt photo and a candid photo that contains a breastfeeding mother. In one case, the photographer is violating an expectation of privacy; in the other, he is not. It is the same distinction between taking a photograph of a minor Royal on a public engagement, and taking another photo of the same person using a huge telephoto lens to penetrate the large estate she lives on.

    Let's round out the discussion by illustrating two examples that *do* violate public-decency laws. The most obvious example of this would be a streaker at a sporting event, who takes off every stitch of clothing and runs out in front of a crowd of tens of thousands, specifically to cause outrage and embarrassment (not to mention disruption to the match in progress). A more nuanced example is the recent protest by a group of Finnish art students, where one of them posed as a nude model for the others - right in the middle of Tampere railway station. After a discreet interval, a policeman politely asked her to get down and get dressed - which she did, having made her point, and I understand that no charges were filed.

    1. localzuk Silver badge

      You'll want to double check your definition of the first amendment - photography and artistry have long been determined to be covered by first amendment rights - there is decades of case law supporting that assertion.

      The rest of your blurb relies on definitions that simply aren't in the laws they're working with here.

  19. TimDimJimmyJim

    "up-Skirt" a general term?

    What I wish to know is the circumstances that this happened. The term "up-skirt photo" is a generalisation and could completely change the perspective of the situation. What I mean by this is that any shots that are taken of a person wearing a skirt and show's underwear or private parts could be classed as an up-skirt photo regardless of the distance, angle, or intent.

    If the person in question was sat opposite the female in this case and took photos without any contact that revealed her underwear then that would be different than if he had physically touched her or her property (the skirt) to take a photo. I personally think that this is a fundamental difference as to whether this person has acted immorally.

    Personally, I think there is nothing immorally wrong with a person taking photos where they are not in any conducting any physically exchange with their subject (when in a public place). However, that view is flipped if he had physically lifted someones skirt.

    If the former statement is the case then I would argue that the man may be acting pervtedly. However, is being "perverted" wrong or a universal agreed set of characteristics? I'd say no. Just because something makes you feel uncomfortable doesn't mean that you have the right to impede on someone else right's or freedoms (this is a generalised statement that is applicable to many different issues but I feel is often over looked by many people). However, if the case is the later of the statements (if he physically touched the clothing of the women) than I would say that he is acting immorally as nobody has the right to touch you or your priority unless consent is given (or in cases where your rights have been given/taken away).

    Just my view.

    1. Charles 9

      Re: "up-Skirt" a general term?

      For the record, a covert upskirt photo in a flat public setting almost always means a shoe camera (as in a camera fitted into a shoe looking out a hole in the top of the shoe) positioned between the subject's legs and probably in video mode to (1) prevent any clicking sounds and (2) improve the chance of a good shot.

      This is generally regarded as voyeurism (as in attempting to gain an indecent view beyond barriers--such as doors, privacy windows, and in this case a dress--meant to safeguard privacy and not protected by the first amendment. Sounds to me like the voyeur is challenging basically on these grounds:

      1. The restriction on laws prohibiting the freedom of speech states no exceptions.

      2. So where does Congress get the authority (for that matter, where does Congress get the authority to prohibit "Fire in a Crowded Theater")?

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    He has no reasonable expectation to not have his snoopy nose broken.

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