back to article Court slaps down coppers in photography case

The Met Police were making a spectacle of themselves again last week both in front of the camera and behind it. That, at least, appears to be the conclusion to be drawn from one unfortunate incident and one court ruling. According to a news report by the NUJ London Photographers' Branch, Carmen Valino, a journalist on …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    learn

    Without firm and rigourusly enforced rules and regulations and strictly written laws this kind of abuse is inevitable.

    The stanford prison experiment highlights what happens when you give people power over other people with little control http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

    I'm sure a number of officers join intending to be good upstanding people but the job itself lends to corruption and where you have law enforcment units that are allowed to do what they want more or less (like that old unit that got dispanded) or a whole bank of laws that are supposed to be "interpreted" (as the last government was keen on) then these kinds of things are going to happen more and more.

    Especially when the enforcment of rules and the allocation of punishment is so lacks (they know they can get away with it, even on the off chance they do get caught it'll probably get brushed under the carpet.)

  2. alex cee
    WTF?

    But who will....

    "Present were members both of the police Forward Intelligence Team (FIT) and supporters of FitWatch, which has undertaken to watch the watchers."

    But who will watch the watchers watching the watchers?

    WTF because I wish I was taking the piss.

    1. Tharrick
      Thumb Up

      Perhaps..

      ..they'll watch each other?

  3. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

    @Properly nasty individuals.

    "regularly attending .... protests should expect to be of the interest to the state."

    A mere murderer or rapist isn't of interest to the state.

    Remember the MET isn't a local police force, it's part of government answerable to the home secretary

  4. rex_imperator
    Grenade

    When in a hole stop digging - or not?

    It seems the police senior ranks never learn that coppers will make mistakes. Dark, scary locations, bad people, lots going on - of course mistakes will be and are made. But why do the senior cops (the ones who never leave their offices) fail to say "Oops - we got it wrong. We apologise for this and will try, as far as we are able, to put it right". Instead we have the drivel that is "policy" or a casual and ill-informed interpretation of the law. In a free country the citizen can do things which the authorities may or may not like. We can pretty much go where we want and say or do what we want when we get there. In a police state, there would be CCTV cameras all over the place, the state would release personal information to anyone on demand (private parking enforcement anyone?) and ban taking photos in public places. Hmmm....

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Wrong arm of the law

    Image #74040573 (from 1 May 2007) at www.gettyimages.co.uk, shows one of the people acquitted at the recent appeal having his collar felt (literally) by the long arm of the law. The photo wasn't allowed to be used in court as Getty did not respond to a request to authenticate it. The officer said in court that his hand "might" have slipped up to the defendant's neck.

    And the offence: failure to leave the area of Canary Wharf without questioning the command. The Getty site & the excellent My London Diary have further pictures of the arrest and use of "pain compliance" (Acquitted, on appeal, of whatever the charge was.)

    The officer with the "sensitive eyes" mentioned in my previous post took umbrage when it was suggested that attempting to snatch someone's camera constituted "reckless behaviour" within the meaning of the 1972 Criminal Damage Act, and suggested "Why don't you go home and strangle yourself?"

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Alert

      Depends on your point of view

      Funny, my recollection of the incident is quite different to that of the police-bashers on here.

      A lot of things went on that certain 'professional protestors' would rather not be disclosed.

      1. karabuni

        Incident?

        Which one? The photographer at the crime scene or outside the Pullen Centre?

        A lot of things went on...

        at the Pullen Centre, as far as I am aware three people held up a banner in front of police photographers. Two were arrested, I am told (fairly reliably) at the time, and the third was arrested in Parliament Square between 8-9pm when he went to collect his bike - one of the officers present in the morning was in Parliament Square, although he did not actually carry out the arrest (fear of form filling?). This person was held in cells overnight - for holding up a banner!

        Were any of these three charged with any other offences "committed" later in the day at the Bush protest? (Remember that the morning meeting was not connected with the "Bush" demonstration)

        I think not - I know for a fact that one definitely wasn't, and the other two may well have spent the afternoon at a police station, which would have made committing an offence rather difficult.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Big Brother

    Austerity

    Hopefully, once the cuts bite, many of these bastard plods will lose there jobs. That'll learn 'em!

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Penalties?

    So was there any penalties handed out against the cops? I didn't see any in TFA. A judge's opinion is useless w/o penalties to back it up, otherwise it's just "oh you bad man! stop robbing banks! now go home and behave!"

    On this side of the pond, usually people lose jobs over this sort of thing. There's also been lawsuits large enough that cops get laid off because the dept is now too poor to pay them, and in some cases the local force is disbanded.

  8. John Murgatroyd

    Meanwhile....

    they still had dna taken, and were photographed and 'printed.

    And the reasons needed for a legal arrest have changed a lot in the past 5 years.

    You can be arrested simply to confirm your identity (and then dna'ed, photographed and 'printed)

  9. kain preacher

    why

    Why haven't they started firing cops yet ?

    1. stizzleswick
      Flame

      @kain

      Wrong question. Why haven't the politicians responsible for not firing the cops not been ousted from their offices?

  10. Keith T
    Grenade

    Bunch of law-breaking thugs

    Those that don't break the law directly, break the law by obstructing the investigations of their colleagues.

  11. Cantab

    Enrage the mainstream

    Its all very well that we repeatedly read these articles on the Register and express our anger and disgust in these comment threads, unfortunately that's highly unlikely to change anything. Furthermore, only a minority of the populace understand that this issue exists: it rarely makes it into mainstream media and when it does its a fleeting article in the broadsheets.

    As such the only people who are out there campaigning against these police actions are the minorities, often the extreme left. while these folks are often passionate and determined, they create a poor image with the public of why this is bad. they see it as something that only affects the kind of nut who goes to (often rowdy) protests.

    Only when this becomes a national issue, taken up by a mainstream newspaper (probably one of the broadsheets but preferably the times or the telegraph so no-one can say its just the lefty guardian) will we see a true change. What IT aware types such as the commentards which haunt these forums could do would be to harness the power of the web to expedite this. Social media used to create a grassroots voice would help, get the videos and accounts out there and preferably demonstrate it happening to the ordinary citizen not the mouthy lefty FITwatch member (admirable though their work is) but the underpaid nurse, the officer worker, the tourist...

    That said, a few judges imprisoning wayward constables on the grounds of contempt of court (their illegal acts are essentially vigilante justice, thus they are disregarding the court's authority, thus they are in contempt) would go along way. And some punitive damages against police forces whenever their officers step out of line would be alright too.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Big Brother

    Trying to hide something?

    Why was this policeman so eager to delete images of the police at work? According to the linked article he told her she could come back later to take photos, so what did he think she'd captured on camera that he was prepared to break the law to delete?

    [Insert tinfoil hat joke here.]

  13. kain preacher

    @stizzleswick

    That assumes there is an available politician that will toss the cops out . If you go after the cops you risk being branded weak on crime( can't be weak on crime think of the children) or risk becoming a target of the cops .

  14. Dick Emery
    Flame

    I think you forget the type of person that joins the forces

    From a single point of view my belief is that the type of people who join the police forces (and the army too) are the bullies and misfits that were 'in your face' at school. Likewise people can turn into nutters over time and end up in the police. I had a friend who was a nice stable guy. He got married. Had kids. We would hang out occasionally. He used to work as an engineer for BT. Then he got separated and divorced. Had trouble seeing his kids. He began turning into a real asshole. Slept around. Showed me photos of his 'conquests'. Eventually I lost contact with him. Until one day I saw him patrolling in police uniform with a bunch of other likely lads. All acting generally like thugs. He pulled me over once. Also pulled my brother over.

    IMHO a lot of police 'officers' are a bit broken in the head. I believe you have to have a certain state of mind to be one.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Grenade

      Have to defend the Army here ...

      I'm a junior officer in the Army.

      The training process, and the hierarchy, of the police and the army are very different. The police don't have a sense of discipline or proportion, and actually have an "us-vs-them" attitude far stronger than the army!

      If one of my soldiers acted in this way (breaking the law, ignoring regulations, getting into unnecessary arguments with the locals in the area), either the troop sergeant or myself would have a word, on the spot if possible. If several soldiers did this, I would tell everyone at the next parade (morning or evening) how I expect them to behave. If one soldier was a serial offender, he would have an interview without coffee, be re-assigned if necessary, and it would be noted on his annual report.

      This is a very articulate and well-reasoned article on exactly this topic:

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3613174/The-policeman-found-my-penknife.-Youre-going-down-mate-he-said.html

  15. Anonymous Coward
    WTF?

    They get away with it.....

    because we, the poor dumb mugs at the other end, are reluctant to complain and, when we do, allow it to be dealt with locally, by a word of advice to the officer.

    If you are pissed off by the actions of a plod, even if it is just something you see happening to someone else, complain properly, in writing, to anyone who will receive a letter.

    My list would now include

    The Police Complaints Authority

    My MP

    The Prime Minister

    The Home Secretary

    and if there was anything even slightly criminal, an information to the Magistrates Court for a private prosecution.

    It takes them all so much time and effort to deal with complaints, especially when a higher authority is demanding answers they will soon put pressure to bear on the plod in question.

    Having spent 20 years as plod, albeit some time ago, I can assure you that my experience is that those who cause the maximum amount of hassle for them are the ones that are left alone and if they don't, remember they can get 4 years if it amounts to harrassment.

    BTW my attitude is founded on the way they failed to deal with incidents that I, and other ex-colleagues, called them to attend long since my retirement.

    I found those that did attend a bone idle, lazy, arrogant bunch of thick bastards with no knowledge of the law, no concept of impartiality or fairness. Complaints did lead to suitable action being taken and no come back.

  16. bdsl
    Stop

    Police didn't have as much right as anyone to take pictures.

    "Without showing legitimate cause to film, the police had as much or as little right as anyone else to be taking pictures, and therefore no right to complain when they were obstructed."

    This isn't quite right. Having heard no evidence that the police had a legitimate aim, the judge found that "We cannot be sure the police were acting lawfully and within their duty".

    The courts have found infringement of privacy by the state, although sometimes justifiable, to often be a more serious issue than infringement of privacy by private individuals. The judgement and some extracts from the evidence and arguments in the trial are now up on the fitwatch website. Much of the reasoning is explained in the case of Wood v Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis.

  17. Sam Therapy
    Thumb Down

    Police - Criminals in uniforms

    Yet again, the coppers do what they like and pretty much get away with it. A corrupt, totally out of control section of society which we all pay for. Makes you feel proud, don't it?

    Nothing - but nothing - the bastards in blue will ever surprise me.

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