back to article Net think tank: Phorm is illegal

The Foundation for Information Policy Research (FIPR), a leading advisory group on internet issues, has written to the Information Commissioner arguing that Phorm's ad targeting system is illegal. In an open letter posted to the think tank's website today, the group echoes concerns voiced by London School of Economics …

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  1. N

    Result!!!

    Just for once theyve done something decent,

    lets hope everyone migrates away from BT anyway

    & as for Phorm, well they can Phuck off!

  2. Slaine
    Thumb Up

    innocent 'til proven guilty - after amanfromMars

    fair enough... how about...

    BT - guilty of breaching their own security, guilty of a breach of contract, guilty of a breach of trust, guilty of the illegal transfer of private data, guilty of deliberate deception, guilty of abusing a near-monopolistic position.

    Phorm - guilty of an association with 121media, guilty of attempting to circumvent legal treatises, guilty of coersing a third party to break the law, guilty of receiving stolen (virtual) goods, guilty of deliberate deception.

    And, just for the record, Mr Phorm... even if you could generate the most accurately identified adverts for my regularly purchased products, when streamed at my computer, they will generate exactly ZERO SALES because I NEVER click on those links (in case it is a link to malware pages or phishing zones). I won't opt in, but I have decided that I won't opt out either... - I'm researching http randomisers and port forwarding instead.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Alert

    Tesco Clubcard

    I know people who deal with Tesco clubcard data. The data protection act is supposed to prevent them from looking at individual account holders, but take it from me, they all know what a number of well known people have purchased recently....

    But at least I can choose not to have a club card.

  4. Graham Wood
    Thumb Down

    @stu

    Unless you pay with cash all the time, you are giving Tesco the same information every time you shop with or without the clubcard. They can quite easily link the purchases to the card(s) you use - in the same way that Phorm can link to the "anonymous" cookie they drop on your PC.

    A more accurate comparisson would be if someone was parked outside your house and, as you came home with your groceries, x-ray'd your car to see what you'd bought. Then stuck a sticker on the car that said you were person <x>.

    Other issues with your comparisson:

    - The clubcard /does/ reward you - it doesn't just change the adverts you see.

    - Using a clubcard doesn't expose your data to 3rd parties, tesco do the profiling themselves. No data goes to China/Russia (at least as far as I know)

    - Tesco don't hide a piece of plastic in your wallet/purse and claim that actually some criminal must have broken into your house to do it, "go learn about security!"

  5. Simon Ball

    @stu

    There are two main differences. Firstly, a Tesco clubcard doesn’t fall under RIPA because Tesco, as one of the two parties to any transaction using the card, isn’t a third party to the data transfer, and therefore is not intercepting data. It falls under normal data protection laws, and Tesco only have to get consent from the customer, not from anybody else.

    Secondly, most reasonable people – and the courts - would probably not regard the contents of their shopping to be anywhere near as sensitive as what they may read/write on political/religious/sexual websites. Consequently, consent does not have to BE as informed. True, if Tesco employs extensive statistical analysis techniques, it MIGHT be able to make an educated guess about your religion, political beliefs and sexual proclivities, but I suspect that data protection laws only cover facts, not guesswork.

  6. Julian Maynard-Smith

    Phorm's official response to the allegations made by FIPR

    Here is Phorm's official response to the allegations made by FIPR:

    We don't agree with FIPR's analysis. And its description of the Phorm system is inaccurate. Our technology complies with the Data Protection Act, RIPA and other applicable UK laws. We've sought our own legal opinions as well as consulted widely with experts such as Ernst & Young, 80/20 Strategic Thinking, the Home Office, Ofcom and the Information Commissioner's Office (ICO). We discussed our system with the ICO prior to launching it and continue to be in dialogue with the organisation.

    Phorm's CEO is hosting a live webchat on Thursday 20 March at 1.30pm (UK time): the URL is www.webwise.com/chat.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Black Helicopters

    @ stu

    It isn’t the same as a clubcard because you have a choice and if you choose to opt out by not having a clubcard then your buying habits are not profiled. I have been thinking about an analogy for this and the post office one most frequently pointed out (with a few refinements) is still the most obvious one.

    Firstly the post office adds a new profiling service in order to provide advertisers with better information and it assumes implied consent on your behalf.

    1. You write a letter to your insurance company and the postman opens it, reads it and adds this information to your profile.

    2. Next time any junk insurance email comes in, the postman opens that and inserts a more "relevant" junk advert (OK so the original junk email would have to come from an advertiser who subscribes to the post office profiling service) but I guess if the post office can offer an advertiser a specifically targeted audience, profiled to meet their current products then more and more advertisers will sign up.

    3. Lets say you opt out, the postman will still open and read all your outgoing mail, just not do anything with it.

    The opportunity for insider underhanded dealings is increased because of the entire mechanism, if you add a point where all your outgoing information is intercepted and read, even if you are opted out, then there is ALWAYS going to be a point where your private data can be obtained. OK so the profiled data is (said to be) anonymous but all your data including who you are what you were writing about etc must, at some point be somewhere where an insider could abuse their position and use this.

    I want an ISP to forward my outbound packets and deliver my inbound packets and that’s it, I don’t even want their bundled email services, their web portal or anything else.

    Yes, a lot of web sites store data about me and when I go back offer me choices based on past visits but I have accepted this because most, if not all web sites have terms and conditions. I am assuming that BT and the others will include this "profiling" in their terms and conditions and as soon as they do and I have the chance I will decline the new terms and conditions and go elsewhere.

  8. Mostor Astrakan
    Flame

    Oh joy...

    A post by one of the effluent-spillers. I'm assuming that this one comes from Phorm or one of its well-wishers. Since the main perpetrators seem to be unavailable, let's rip this post into tiny shreds, shall we?

    "This is unbelievable- do you people really have nothing better to worry about?"

    Why, yes. But you, my little pond scum, have managed to attract the attention of the Angry Mob, and much deservedly so. I cannot see this die down until your company files for bankruptcy.

    "Don't you worry that Sky is analysing your viewing habits when your box dials BskyB every night?"

    No, I don't. The reason being, I know that no privacy sensitive data goes into my skybox. So Sky is welcome to deduce from my viewing habits that QI is a very popular program. The Internet on the other hand, is worming its way into more and more of my financial arrangements.

    "Or your bank knows where you are spending money then sending you junk mail offering you loans/insurance?"

    Well, no they don't. I have told them in no uncertain terms to refrain from such activities or lose a customer. So far they have abided by that request.

    "For Fucks sake grow up, if you don't like the idea, opt out. Simple."

    As has been pointed out, opting out is not *that* simple, and involves switching ISPs. Because while opting out returns the annoyances to their old scattergun approach, you will still be stealing my data regardless of whether I opt in or out.

    "(I'd like to see one of you IT sophisticates actually hack into Phorm and crack the anonymising data_- oh sorry, little too difficult? maybe it really is secure."

    That's not the point. However secure it is, it's *in the wrong hands*. You filth-encrusted bottom feeders are stealing *my* data for your own grubby purposes. As has been pointed out: that is illegal.

    "But don't pretend to be anything other than a Luddite."

    I have been waiting for an excuse to use the phrase "arse-gravy of the worst description". You are clearly not up to date with the life and works of General Ludd, if you compare it to the well-deserved trashing you are receiving from Internet users who do not appreciate their data being copied to your sneaky eavesdropping box, for *you* to decide whether it's privacy sensitive or not.

    But maybe I'm too harsh. After all, Phorm has done the Internet an invaluable service by serving as an example of what happens to organisations that are found helping themselves to data that doesn't belong to them. $DEITY knows that there are plenty of other unscrupulous bottom feeders out there that haven't been caught yet.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Sir Tim Berners-Lee has seen their presentation

    Sir Tim Berners-Lee has seen their presentation, and held a press conference yesterday to try to stop the practice cold.

    it was the Phorm sales pitch that prompted this Press conference ,End of story @AC:whinging

  10. Red Bren
    Coat

    @Stu

    I think there are subtle differences between loyalty cards and Phorm interception. I have a clubcard and while I know it is used to build a profile of my Tesco shopping habits, I do get some benefits in return in the shape of targetted discounts and offers. However they don't get the complete picture of my shopping habits because I also shop elsewhere, or I can opt out by not handing over the card if I'm buying something dodgy, like that Britney Spears' CD that was a gift for someone else.

    With a Phorm clubcard, I would have to hand the card over for every single transaction in every shop I ever visit, for pretty much nothing in return.

    Mine's the bathrobe as apparently I'm unwashed...

  11. david bates

    @Stu

    The difference is people don't care that Tescos know groceries they buy - and if they decide they don't want Tescos attaching a particular cartload to their profile they can simply decline to hand over their card at the till...

  12. Red Bren
    Black Helicopters

    Will the government listen?

    As with any advice that doesn't suit it's agenda, I can't see the government paying any attention to this report for two reasons:

    1. It's a money spinner for big business

    2. ISPs are effectively wiretapping their customers and it will only be a matter of time before PC Plod will come along and demand that the data is "re-nonymised" for a massive fishing expedition for terrorists/paedos/bogeyman of the month.

  13. Andy Gates
    Happy

    Simply: If my ISP uses Phorm, I'm changing ISP

    Which would be a pity as they're pretty good.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Re: tesco's clubcard

    Loyalty cards are just that. They help the marketing gurus track you and your buying habits from one store to another. I shop in three different chains. I hope that the marketing gurus notice that there is a big hole in my shopping list when I shop at their chain. I shop where the price and quality match my needs.

    Just now I am shopping at Sainsburys - after not using that chain for some time, I now have vouchers that knock £12 off every shop over £60: so I am stocking up on wine to increase the shopping total.

    Yes, they do have a lot of info about me. That is why I will not also give them my savings, banking, credit card business nor buy insurance from them - Sir Tim was right on that one.

    The big thing is: I have a choice. I don't have to do ALL my shopping through them. Nor do I have to tell them 'it is me' when I do go shopping.

    If I play this game right, in a few weeks I will get some good discount offers from Tesco as they try to get back my trade.

    Are you sure you are not that pesky PR who is unable to answer any questions so trying to distract us by asking a few unrelated distracting 'bombs'?

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Unhappy

    "Privacy International" loves Phorm

    @ 3x2: "A quick mail to PI will get you a pretty clear statement about all of this. The fact that "journalists" (I'm looking at you - BBC) initially didn't bother to ask is hardly their (PI's) fault."

    You must be new to the Phorm story. The BBC asked PI, and PI said Phorm was OK by them.

    see

    http://calculating.wordpress.com/2008/03/06/privacy-international-idiots-endorse-phorm/

    Privacy International (PI) said: “We were impressed with the effort that had been put into minimising the collection of personal information.” (BBC)

    "Mr Davies might also like to consider if there might be a bit of a conflict between his role at Privacy International and as a member of a start-up which provides helpful quotes to firms like Phorm. If he does not he is not going to be a “respected privacy campaigner” for much longer."

    Which says it all. Perhaps you have missed the fact that PI's founders started a laundering service (oops, consultancy) so spyware scum like Phorm get an official seal of approval. Conflict of interest? Nah, count the cash!

    So thank you Privacy International, and Good-bye.

  16. Paul
    Coat

    caught by the cahones

    So if I willingly consented to Phorm via my ISP but told them to F off on my website, everytime I visited my site they'd be committing an offence.

  17. tim
    Coat

    Opt out

    While agreeing that a Tesco clubcard isn't the same as phorm, you CAN opt out of any Phorm style thing by not using the interweb....

  18. Colin
    Thumb Up

    Making my Government work for me.

    Having read the Phorm articles with growing sense of outrage over the underhanded and sneaky methods being used by Phorm and the ISP's I wrote to my MP asking for him to raise the issue to the highest levels. Most espscially in regards to it's legality under the RIPA and DPA. I received a letter back today telling me that he has raised the matter with the Minister of State for the Ministry of Justice, Michael Wills MP.

    Now if you and I hope most of you did, write to your MP's that will mean that Michael Wills MP, will be getting a lot of letters all asking for the legality of this deal to be re-examined. Politicians only change things when a lot of people ask them to so if you haven't yet written to your MP I suggest you do so ASAP.

    When you do write to your MP ask for your questions to be raised with Michael Wills MP. The easiest way to contact your MP is to use the write to them site.

    http://www.writetothem.com/

    Yor MP will have your letter by today or tomorrow and in a few days Michael Wills MP will have more letters to deal with. The more letters he gets on his desk the more likely he is to get something done.

  19. Fluffykins Silver badge

    Phorm is WELOCME to my data.

    But please, remember, the data is MINE.

    I offer you, jointly and severally with my ISP, the right to intercept MY DATA as you will, for a fee of £500 per day or part thereof.

    That's it.

    If you choose to accept my offer, you may signal your acceptance jointly ands severally with my ISP by intercepting my data.

    If you choose not to accept, then that's fine.

  20. Norbury
    Black Helicopters

    re: Whinging

    Do I worry about Sky knowing my viewing habits? Yes, I don't have Sky or cable for that very reason. I hate giving away personal information.

  21. William Morton

    @Fluffykins

    I would have the payment at £50/byte of data instead, even with BT network speed your not going to get your £500 for quite a while

  22. Alexander Hanff
    Thumb Down

    @Paul

    Chances are if you do that you will be classed as complicit and possibly be accused of entrapment as well.

    I wrote a long comment on one of the other El Reg stories warning about the possible legal come back for customers who do "Opt In".

  23. bobbles31
    Dead Vulture

    Not that I could do this, but someone could

    Phorm's CEO is hosting a live webchat on Thursday 20 March at 1.30pm (UK time): the URL is www.webwise.com/chat.

    DDOS anyone?

  24. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Sir Tim Berners-Lee comments...

    Mr Berners-Lee said a user's internet activity information was akin to a person's private property.

    "It's mine, you can't have it. If you want to use [that data] for something, then you have to negotiate with me. I have to agree, I have to understand what I'm getting in return."

    http://www.bcs.org/server.php?show=conWebDoc.18272

  25. NickR
    Thumb Up

    Petition Available

    http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ispphorm

    (I did not start this petition).

  26. Ben
    Stop

    RE: Whinging

    "For Fucks sake grow up, if you don't like the idea, opt out. Simple."

    That's the whole point. I shouldn't have to opt out.

    It's like telling me if I don't like the local fight club I should opt out.

  27. VulcanV5
    Unhappy

    re Stu / Tesco

    The drivel you chose to spout on here has been rightly canned by other posters.

    I'm hoping against hope that you're the head of Phorm's PR department (or Privacy International, seeing as how they're indivisible now) and not a genuine moron, otherwise the dumbing-down of this country really has reached the point where outfits like Phorm and sleazebag ISPs like BT are correct in thinking it's well worth chancing their arm.

    It used to be the case that evil prevailed when the good did nothing.

    Nowadays it's more likely to be that evil prevails because too many half-wits can't even recognise it.

  28. Graham Wood

    @Colin

    I'd love to write to my MP. However, since he's a cheating scumbag (so bad that even the other cheating scumbags in Parliament have done something about it) I don't think there's much point.

  29. Anonymous Coward
    Boffin

    for those who dont understand what all the fuss is about:

    If I (party 1) choose to phone my insurance company (party 2) then both myself and the insurance company can record/monitor/process our conversation. The Telephone company (party 3) are not allowed to record/monitor/processs our conversation.

    If I (party 1) choose to visit my insurance company's (party 2) website, then both myself and the insurance company can record/monitor/process our communication. The ISP acting for Phorm (party 3) believe they are legally entitled to record/monitor/processs our communication.

    as someone once said: Richard Clayton, treasurer at Fipr, said: "The Phorm system is highly intrusive; it's like the Post Office opening all my letters to see what I'm interested in, merely so that I can be sent a better class of junk mail."

    Not really like Tescos. They do not know what you spend at Asda, the Pub, ebay, the vending machine at work, the bookies, that shop with no windows... etc etc... however Phorm will know everything you do.. not just what you google, but what you Ask or yahoo! too!. (They want the whole pie not just a slice, give em pavement pie.)

    @ Stu: got it yet?

  30. Anonymous Coward
    Alert

    Googlemail as well?

    Just read the paragraph

    "The consent of those who host the web pages visited by a user is also required, since they communicate their pages to the user, as is the consent of those who send email to the user, since those who host web-based email services have no authority to consent to interception on their users' behalf."

    ... doesn't this make the premise of GoogleMail (free email that they scan to target ads to you) illegal as well?

  31. SImon Hobson Bronze badge

    But what about visitors ?

    Something no-one has mentioned yet - particularly the ISPs now claiming that they will have a "proper" opt-out that stops the data going to the fishing servers ...

    Supposing I visit a friend (or customer, or hotspot, or ...) and plug into his network, and he hasn't "opted out" because he doesn't know he should (OK that's hypothetical because any of my friends on the relevant networks will have been told) ? So I have in no way whatsoever given even implied consent and my data would be intercepted.

    Since the person paying for a broadband connection cannot give consent on behalf of everyone that MAY use his line, the whole thing should be illegal anyway.

    Ho hum, off to add legal "non-consents" to my websites !

  32. Jimmy

    Spot the difference.......Benign & Malign

    Supermarket club cards imply a consensual arrangement between two parties with a beneficial gain for each party. In the case of the business, benefits include the ability to stock their shelves with products that people actually prefer to buy, maintain stock levels and organize the logistics of getting the products from wholesale to the supermarket shelves. For the customer, finding that their favourite nosh is always available off the shelf is one benefit, but let's be honest, the main incentive is a financial one. The business pays you for consenting to be profiled. A good example of benign profiling.

    Contrast the above model with what is being proposed by the big three ISPs who dominate the UK market: Jump into bed with a notorious purveyer of spyware, carry out covert trials of spyware technology and when caught with your fingers in the cookie jar immediately switch to full on bullshit mode. 'Our customers will benefit from the enhanced security provided by our new partners. You may opt out of this enhanced security system, it's optional. Your browsing data will still be forwarded to our partners but, hand on heart and fingers crossed, they wont even take a tiny peek at it. Honest.'

    Beneficial gain to ISPs and partner: loadsa money.

    Beneficial gain to customer: zero, zilch, nada.

    A good example of malign profiling.

    Y'all have a nice day now.

  33. Craig

    Googlemail

    It's not that obviously illegal with Gmail as Google don't hide what they do and you don't have to email anyone with a Gmail account. If you email a gmail account, you accept the profiling.

    BT, et al, give you no choice, even if you "opt-out", your data still goes to the profiler whether you like it or not. Also, if you're a website owner, you have no say in whether your site gets profiled by the system, even if your users are accessing unpublished http addresses which are normally reasonably private.

    My site now has a specific disclaimer in the legal notices saying "no profiling".

  34. Graham Wood

    @AC

    The issue is with interception, rather than anything else.

    If google only read it as they are showing it to you, then they could argue that effectively you're sending it on to them to review - rather than intercepting whilst in transit.

    The servers are also likely to be US based, and therefore covered by different laws ;)

  35. Law
    Happy

    RE: Making my Government work for me.

    Done and done! :)

  36. Alexander Hanff
    Thumb Down

    re: Googlemail as well

    No, GMail is not an interception and as far as I know they do not profile you either, they scan the emails on the page (and I think even then only the subject lines) and provide ads based on that data.

  37. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Re: Googlemail as well?

    No gmail and yahoo mail are both free to you because it is funded by the advertisements. This is what you agree to when you sign up. If you don't like gmail being read by google, don't use gmail.

    It is so simple, if you don't want your ISP to read your traffic, don't use that ISP.

    When all the ISPs are reading our traffic, we will start shopping in the city centers again and do our reading research in the libraries. A lot less ads there.

    Life can be simple.

  38. Mike
    Thumb Down

    Legality

    Surely asking the government whether it is legal or not it should of started alarm bells ringing.

    "Is this way of betraying our customer's good faith, and violating their privacy legal?"

    Any company which valued it's customers more than just cattle should never be going down a road that they need to ask such a question.

  39. The Other Steve
    Flame

    @Whinging

    Hi HamsterWheel, still holding those Phorm shares eh ? down by another 300 so far today, bummer.

    See how quickly your anonymity was stripped away there, despite the fact that you posted AC, and the reg site does not allow me to see your IP address ?

    Nasty, isn't it ?

    As for your pathetic points, which display your continuing misunderstandings about technology and legal issues, lets have a quick look.

    BskyB :

    Don't use it. That's a choice, see.

    Credit Cards :

    Don't have em. Choice.

    Banks :

    No they don't, because it's illegal, and anyway I usually use cash. Choice.

    Opt-out :

    It isn't as simple as opting out, I would expect someone who claims to have "seen the technology" to know better. Order yourself some Clue.

    Luddites :

    ROFLMAO. Even wikipedia is smarter than you.

    Legality :

    Kent can say he's sure all he likes, but guess what, it isn't up to him to decide what's legal in this country.

    As for "I'd like to see you hack Phorm", be very, very, careful. As a Phorm shareholder, that could be taken as implied consent to do just that. Would you really like to be responsible for millions of people waking up tomorrow and having the first page they see scream "Welcome to Phorm. Kent Ertugrul is a massive Spunk Bubble. We now return you to your normal internet experience." ? Would you like to be responsible for that ? To find that since you have implied consent, it's your fault, and Phorm have no recourse at law ? I somehow doubt it.

    Of course, I'm sure that won't happen, there's no need for it, Phorm are going down all by themselves. You've been a big part of that, your clueless outpourings and transparent attempts to ramp Phorm shares have helped to anger many people who perhaps otherwise would have just sat back and watched the show.

    You should be proud. As should Citigate Dewe Rogerson, whose "Jack and Jane do Pubic Relations" approach has wound up so many. So props to them for their continued efforts to dig the hole that bit deeper.

    Oh, I forgot your other point, about "growing up". Personally, when some bunch of shady fucktards turn up and start plundering my personal data, illegally intercepting my private communications, playing fast and loose with the Data Protection Act, labelling me, categorising me, and treating me as a product to be sold to the highest bidder, I think the "grown up" response is to shout the fucking rafters down and not rest until the beast is slain. It's called "taking responsibility".

    YHL HAND.

  40. I. Aproveofitspendingonspecificprojects

    @Tesco Clubcard

    And of course you can get your negotiables elsewhere.

  41. Peter White

    bt changing line on profiling opted out traffic

    response from BT today, they seem to be changing there line on all traffic going via the profiler

    Thank you for your email.

    Our plans are confined to conducting a opt-in technical trial for about 10,000 customers at the moment.

    I want to confirm to you that BT Webwise will always be offered as a choice. Those customers who have chosen not to participate will not have their browsing information mirrored or profiled, and no information will go to the BT managed profiler. No information is gathered, and therefore no information is forwarded to Phorm. Customers who opt out will not come into contact with any Phorm-managed equipment.

    Opting in and out of BT Webwise is extremely easy and completely transparent. Standard opt out method does depend on a cookie remaining on your machine indicating that you have opted out. If you delete your cookies regularly, you will have to opt-out again each time you start a browsing session. But for those who delete cookies regularly and want to remain opted out, you can block cookies from the domain www.webwise.net on each browser you use. When you block this domain, the service will opt you out permanently.

    In parallel with the trial, we are already developing an opt-out solution that would remove the need for opt-out cookies altogether.

    BT Webwise technology is designed in such a way that it is not possible to reverse engineer identity. The service doesn't store personally identifiable information, doesn't store IP addresses or browsing histories of websites visited. The technology simply observes anonymous behaviours and draws a conclusion about the advertising category that's most relevant. All the data leading to that conclusion is deleted by the time each web page is loaded. The service dispels the myth that data on user browsing behaviour must be retained and stored in order to provide more relevant advertising.

    I hope this email answers some of your concerns.

    Regards,

    BT Webwise Helpdesk

    -----Original Message-----

    From: peter white

    Sent: 13 March 2008 17:20

    To: BT Webwise Help Desk G

    Subject: RE: Technical enquiry from BT Yahoo! online help (broadband)

    May I correct you on several facts

    Talk talk have scaled down and now working on opt in and anybody who has opted out the data will not go via the profiler at all (a higher level of privacy than BT)

    Virgin media seem to be back tracking to the same position as talk talk from the report on the web

    Only BT at this point are proceeding as planned

    The anomonised data can still yield id information as AOL found that out last year when it released a ton of anonymised search requests with the user IDs replaced by random numbers; it had to withdraw the list in haste as it became embarrassingly obvious that users could be identified from that information alone.

    So by using a random number in a cookie will still enable users to be identified from the data passed from the profiler to the phorm server and so privacy is not guaranteed

    The anti-phishing features of webwise is a duplication of the function in

    IE7 and I believe also part of the Norton security suite you provide, so I see little value add from that service, the only thing the users will see is an increase in targeted adverts from the businesses signed up to OIX which was the adware rubbish phorm used to push, how many adverts are going to be for uk based businesses (very few I suspect) and due to the high rate of fraud and phishing on the web people are naturally sceptical of any popup and highly unlikely to purchase via them, this I doubt is of little concern as BT will only get revenue from allowing the adverts to be served and not from any form of pay per click on the actual poup-ups

    Can you confirm if the data of a user who has opted out or blocked the cookie is still sent to the profiler, and although supposedly not , is still possibly scanned (even if in error)

    Can you confirm catagorically that phorm / webwise does not breach my right to privacy under european law of human rights, RIPA, or the data protection act

    I understand the data is held on servers run by BT in BT's hosting centres, but the software is provided by phorm whose past appears to be dubious from the forums and information on the web

    I will be blocking the cookies on all machines in my house to protect myself as best I can and if webwise goes ahead I will be migrating out of BT asap after the notification

    Can you confirm if I Will be offered the option of terminating my contract early due to the changes to the terms and conditions of my contract if bt deem the trial a success and proceed with a full roll out

    Thanks

    Peter white

  42. Ron Eve
    Coat

    @Andrew Webster et al

    (This is one for Pedants Corner)

    "It's "Sue, Grabbit & Run", as any fule kno."

    "Actually it's Sue, Grabbit & Rune as any long term private eye reader knows ;)"

    Actually <sigh> it's Sue, Grabbit and Runne

    /coat with spyglass and turned up collar please

  43. Simon Ball

    @Craig

    Where do you accept the profiling? Where's the disclaimer that says "by sending an e-mail to this account/receiving from this account" you agree to its contents being scanned for advertising purposes"? There isn't one. And the average person can't be expected to know. And without explicit consent from BOTH parties, it would constitute an illegal intercept.

    There is an exemption in law for carriers to perform scanning without consent if it is "necessary to the smooth operation of the service", hence why spam filters are legal, but I'm not sure whether the argument that Google wouldn't provide the service if it wasn't allowed to scan the e-mails would actually stand up in court, since that consideration is only relevant to the person with the Gmail account - not to anybody who communicates with them.

    So, in short, yes - Gmail may actually be illegal.

  44. Anonymous Coward
    Paris Hilton

    Virgin/NTL

    My ISP has kindly just offered me a free upgrade of my Bandband speed but I must upgrade my cable modem which they will provide to me for free of charge....................Should I just grab it or should i stick with my trustly old cable modem

    Is this connected to PHspy

    Paris is my favorite

  45. I. Aproveofitspendingonspecificprojects

    @Colin x@Graham Wood

    You live in Sedgefield?

  46. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    @Mostor Astrakan

    "http://www.fipr.org/080317icoletter.html"

    Many thanks for this link!!! Clear, concise at massively to the point.

  47. colin stone
    IT Angle

    blocking Phorm

    Just a thought..

    would blocking phorm in the .htaccess file stop phorm profiling a site.

    something along the lines of

    .htaccess

    deny from webwise.com

    deny from webwise.net

    deny from webwise.org

    deny from oix.net

    deny from oix.com

    deny from oix.org

    Plus any other domains as needed.

    Is there any reason this could break things?

    Thanks

  48. Colin

    A call to rebell against "Proper English Behaviour"

    @ Graham Woods

    Then I humbly suggest to you and anyone else in the UK who feels the same way about their MP as Graham does about his to write directly to Mr. Michael Wills MP, House of Commons, London, SW1A 0AA.

    Whether or not you believe it will do any good is besides the point, just the annoyance factor alone will be enough to make a politician sit up and take notice. The only way that politicians do anything ever, is if they think there is votes in it for them, or if they think they will lose votes by doing nothing.

    The only way they think either of those is if enough people badger them about it and keep hassling them about it, until they realise that this little itch is getting worse and it's not going away.

    The Register is a good news site for us Techies but the politicians tend to take notice of very little if any of the web based media. Slap big grey Royal Mail sacks full of letters on their desks every day they take notice.

    Do the same to the Editor of the Times, FT, Telegraph etc. and they take notice, cos you bet your life if the Editors of the major broad sheets, get sacks full of letters asking why nothing is being done, then their journalists will start asking Ministers and Minister's Private secetaries why nothing is being done.

    When that happens the Politicians start to ask questions of the type that need answering. Questions like who the hell is this Phorm company? Questions like what the hell do BT, VIrgin Media and Carphone Warehouse think they are playing at?

    The biggest thing the politicians of this country have relied on for years is that the English don't complain. Well wake up England and start complaining, it's your privacy Phorm will take away from you. Would you let someone walk into your house and record what you own so they could advertise newer and better stuff to you? No you would not.

    So get up and instead of moaning about it (we all know the English can moan) do something, one letter sent via the write to them website http://www.writetothem.com/

    It won't even cost you the price of a stamp, you don't even have to go and post it. How hard is that to do?

    Yeah I know Scots, Welsh and Irish (Northern Ireland has BT too) read the Register. But the largest population base affected by this deal is the English and anyway everyone knows the Scots, Welsh and Irish can and do complain when they feel wronged. We of the celtic backgrounds are born with the fire in our blood we got to put it in the English and get them all riled up first.

  49. Anonymous Coward
    Alert

    RE: Googlemail as well?

    No not Googlemail, Googlemail is a choice you can choose Hotmail or Yahoo and it has nothing to do with Google.

    all of these companies have the right Idea, provide a Service for free! Phorm offer no service, and are blanket invaders of privicy just like there 121 predessecors

  50. Alexander Hanff
    Stop

    People need to understand interception

    Gmail is NOT guilty of interception under RIPA. Whether you agree with thier advertising or not is irrelevant, they are not breaking the law. They are simply not intercepting your communications, the communications you have with Google are exactly that, between you and google, google are not sitting in the middle trying to grab your data (well they might be but not in any way which is relevant to RIPA). Google -ARE- the destination for your gmail emails so how on earth could they be classed as an interception? When someone sends you an email to a gmail address, they are sending it to gmail, it is as simple as that. Google through agreement with you then deliver the email to you, but they would be perfectly within their rights legally, to never deliver the email to you and just keep it forever as they OWN the gmail address it was sent to.

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