US demands air passengers ask its permission to fly Under new rules proposed by the Transport Security Administration (TSA) (pdf), all airline passengers would need advance permission before flying into, through, or over the United States regardless of citizenship or the airline's national origin. Currently, the Advanced Passenger Information System, operated by the Customs and …
Have you taken leave of your senses? El Reg posters actually reading a source document? On a Friday?
Rob, you obviously don't understand the mindset of your average (non-US) El Reg poster. Bugg*r facts, every time El Reg mentions something threatening to impact the cheapo vac to Noo Yawk or My Ami, then just let loose with the usual verbals.
Nice post though.
The terrorists have won. Even if team america succeeds in completely wiping out every terrorist organisation on the planet and erase Iran (and perhaps a few other Islamic countries) from the map, it won't make any difference.
Oh, and I agree with Brendan, amanfrommars is making sense today. perhaps because it's friday?
I try to make every flight to North or South America either direct or avoiding the USA, i.e. changing planes in Toronto or Mexico City, and not on an American airline, even though I like them. I stopped going about 2003. If you want wide-open spaces, try Canada or Argentina.
Friends of mine whi ski now go to Whistler, Fernie, Castlegar, Jasper and Banff instead of the USA and say these places are cheaper and the people nicer. America's loss is Canada's gain.
I have liberal American friends who feel aggrieved that they are lumped in when people slag off America. Start protesting in the streets then, mates.
"the value of the US dollar makes the country an extremely attractive holiday destination"
Er, no. It makes it a cheap holiday destination. It's a long time since there's been anything remotely attractive about the US, though I guess if you're easily seduced by an apparent bargain, you'll fit right in.
And as for those people worried about funerals, don't expect sympathy from the USofA. Their rules already mean that if you've got a Green Card application in progress you're not allowed to leave the country. For any reason. Not even a funeral. Once you get it, however, you're obliged to leave the country, return to your place of habitual residence and then re-enter the USA. I realise we have our own asinine bureaucracy, but the 'Merkins manage to beat even the Belgians hands down..
And don't get me started about the cop I observed once at SFO who'd stationed himself by a pedestrian crossing and was ticketing everyone who crossed without waiting for the red light so he could teach those pesky foreigners the cost of failing to have studied Californian State law before visiting...
You're welcome to the USA...
The regulations.gov link to the document doesn't work because the web site is configured for direct linking to reports. Go to http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspublic/component/main and search for Docket ID TSA-2007-28572 or RIN 1652-AA45, click on the docket ID link, click the pdf link for the second document (TSA-2007-28572-0002), and review the proposed rule. It really isn't as bad as you guys make it seem.
Passengers are currently only required to provide their names and that will not change. Airline carriers will be required to request additional information, but passengers do not need to provide the information. Airline carriers will also be required to transmit to TSA through the current system all available information as outlined on page 17 of the document that I cite. Airline carriers will not be required to request all of the information for passengers with a "Known Traveller Number" because those passengers have already been cleared for travel.
What the new system will correct is the current problem of passengers being placed on the "no-fly" list because their names match another person. Ultimately, this will ease travel for people by remedying problems with the no-fly list. A potential problem is that passengers may feel compelled to answer questions that they are not required to answer (so they may feel their privacy is invaded), but providing complete data can ease travel for frequent travellers who get a traveller number.
Oh Nick - you are the definition of the Ugly American. As long as folks like you speak out, the truly good people here in the US will continue to be suspect. And we are basically good. Our government is out of control and in the hands of some astonishingly evil people - both of the Republican and Democratic variety. I hope we can implement some type of peaceful revolution to return to our brilliant constitution. Barring that - I would seriously consider a move north. I'm not giving up yet,but every time I read crap like Nick's I begin to wonder if the forces of good can win back the heart of America.
Sorry for the over the top prose - I'm pretty disgusted by what my government is doing in my name and I just want the rest of the world to know we're not all like that.
Not defending any of these knee-jerk policies that keep sprouting up, but I have to ask:
Transited through Heathrow lately?
Nevermind the endless questions about whether or not you had any electronics repaired while on your trip... How about the cue just to stand in another cue to go through security again - presumably to locate all the bombs and knives that I managed to smuggle aboard my previous flight. Heathrow makes most airports look like a walk in the park. Ridiculous security procedures are hardly a uniquely American problem.
Those that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
So America is already viewed, by the travel industry, as the least welcoming country in the world. (Not the people, American Customs/imigration) They are rude, abusive and standoffish, and that is when you're in your own country trying to get a visa at 7am in the morning having some uniform-wearing-power-crazed-shaven-headded-teenager pointing an automatic weapon at you because you deared to want to visit America to give it some of your money. This is before you get to imigration/customs in America, after a seven hour flight you get to wait in a massive line for another teenager with a gun to check your passport (why do you need a gun to check a passport anyway?) you are taken through a scripted interrogation then when he discovers that you've been to Egypt and you have to explain at length why you aren't a terrorist before being allowed into the counrty.
They want to make this better by making you wait three extra days for this treatment?
Uh?
WTF?
@D Morehouse:
"assinine" is not a word. The word you're looking for is "asinine". And the airspace over a country is understood to belong to that country. If Canada doesn't like it, they're free to route their flights over their own airspace. By all rights, the USAF could shoot them down for violating airspace.
@Graham Dawson:
Hillary... *shudder*
My greatest political fear is that the US will be so determined to not elect a Republican, that they'll elect Hillary. The thought very nearly makes me sick to my stomach. I'd rather have Barack "I have yet to have a solid position on anything" Obama than Hillary "I have a solid position, but next week I'll change my mind about it" Clinton. Course, I'd rather have Colin Powell, but he won't run.
@Nick H:
It's true -- I'd love to have the US completely go isolationist. Let the rest of the world solve their own problems.
Oh, and by the way (rest of the world, I'm looking at you), that means no more AIDS money for Africa, no more food for famine stricken countries, no more defense of Iceland (to insert random useless trivia), and you can fend for yourself against the ever more daunting Russia, and the looming China, and all their shiny collective nukes.
You see, it's very easy for the rest of the world to talk smack whilst standing behind your big brother. But what happens when he doesn't have your back anymore? You get your ass whooped by the big kid next door, that's what. Have fun with that.
Hey Nick, you got it right, though I didnt think I would ever support someone like you, but you finally noticed that the world WANTS you to take your army back home, your currency is worthless, and wake up to China owning a lot of it too. One day, the Chinese government will liquidate its dollar holdings, then you will get to understand what worthless really means.
We have had relations with Muslims for decades, nay, centuries, half of Europe was Muslim only 100 years ago, the Ottoman empire, and your own government is promoting the interests of a Muslim state, Turkey, in suggesting the EU should welcome it as a member. Though, we do think GWB should mind his own business and stay out of the political affairs of the EU. We never had any problems at all with Muslims, until your government started to shit on them.
So, apart from a criminal army (Abu Ghraib), a criminal government (implicated in torture, extraordinary rendition, Guantanamo Bay) we will be so happy to see the back of you.
Last time I flew into a US airport was in 1998, O'Hare Intl. I remember it was kind of like bus stations over here in Mexico, no "security zones" so you could even go as far as the boarding gates without a boarding pass. (That has never been possible in Mexico.)
By the way, don't hate America just because of one arrogant member country!! America is that big-ass continent found by Columbus and mapped by Americo Vespucio, from Canada/Alaska down to the Patagonia ;)
The US has not fought a single "liberty battle" since 1945. Even some of the major achievements were thanks to GCHQ, it was a Polish dude and then Turing the ones that cracked Enigma. Hell, the GOP actually *supported* Hitler, fortunately they didn't prevail in the end. Anyway, the world would still be "free" without the Second Indochina Wars, the Khmer Rouge might have not been able to take over Cambodia en '75, there would have been no Vietnam War, no Taliban, no CIA-trained Osama .... the list goes on and on and on ...
So sad the US is screwing over anyone trying to go there, it seems I will have to search direct flights if I want to go to Europe now.
"I'm pretty disgusted by what my government is doing in my name and I just want the rest of the world to know we're not all like that"
Well technically its not really your government seeing as most of you actually voted for the current Nobel Peace Prize winner. We know youre not all like your administration, but we really wish youd do something about them terrorizing the rest of the planet, and keep your xenophobes at bay.
Come to think of it, us UK citizens have some work to do unless we want to be shafted up the ass by our own government.
Not in transit, but I did fly out from Heathrow T1 a couple of months ago for the first time since all the new security crap got put in place, and I can honestly say that getting airside was easier than I've ever known it to be - about the only notable differences were the requirement to take off my shoes, and the slightly anal rules about putting absolutely everything into separate trays for scanning (one tray for the laptop, one tray for the jacket, one tray for the backpack...), and it was far from the tedious process I was expecting it to be based on all the complaints from other travellers I'd read beforehand.
The Bush Administration has made everyone in this country look like an ass weather we agree with their position or not. I do not agree with anything this administration has done, yet I still have to defend myself against people who assume that we all think alike, and I will have to defend myself against my own countrymen because I dont think like them, its a double edged sword to live in this country of freedom. This development just puts more icing on the cake. There are a hand full of us that totally agree that this is all wrong, but the problem is that in this country where the battle cry is Freedom, Free Speech and the like, if you speak your mind and it does not agree with the masses, you are an outsider, a traitor.
I was conversing on a message board not long ago and was talking about how I would like to start working on my garden again to grow my own vegetables and fruit so as to not have to buy everything at a megastore i.e.Walmart, and one of the known conservatives made the comment that if I would go so far as to do that I was a radical and just looking to cause trouble. Whats so radical about a garden?
This always happens when we have an ultra conservative office running the country. No doubt people even here will flame the hell out of this post, and you know why, same reason, I am a radical liberal, though one of the things we "fight" for is freedom of speech, it boils down to who has the most money. I also do not agree with the Democratic party on a lot of issues, but I will be labeled a Democrat because of my liberalness.
Peace Brothers and Sisters
"Oh, and by the way (rest of the world, I'm looking at you), that means no more AIDS money for Africa, no more food for famine stricken countries,"
Do you seriously ask us to think that the GoodolUSofA is the only contributor to AIDS relief in Africa and/or the only provider of food for famine stricken countries? Really?
As an American this has me so bloody pissed-off I swear I have steam blowing out of my ears. But I find it ironic that so many of you lot are mocking the US for this, when the UK is even closer to a full-on Orwellian police-state than the US is. Isn't it the UK that has more surveillance cameras per capita than anywhere? Don't you have some of the most restrictive gun-control laws in the world? Wasn't it in the UK that a 17 year old kid was arrested for merely possessing a copy of "The Anarchists Cookbook?"
The bottom line is that "We The People" need to stand up and take back control of our respective countries, whether it's the UK or the US. In two nations with the heritage of Freedom and Liberty like the two of ours (can you say "Magna Carta?" "Declaration of Independence?" etc?) how can we be the people allowing this kind of totalitarianism to overtake us?
Somebody bloody well needs to do something, before fascists take over and destroy two once-noble nations.
> The only reason you HAVE the freedom to spout this nonsense is because of the US.
Oh dear oh dear - you *silly* twisted boy.
It's because of willy-waving crap like this that many non-Merkins have a (unfair and largely undeserved) poor opinion of your side of the pond. And in your case, I'd suspect that many Merkins would rather keep you at bay with a ten foot pole too.
Except perhaps Bush and the other inmates of his monkey cage, all chucking poo at the world while dancing on the graves of the founding fathers. You'd be right at home there.
As an airline "insider", I can safely say that this information sharing protocol for all "US airspace zone" is the logical extension to the unpublicised mandate of all international airspace being treated as "american skies". That mandate will be "exercised" once these protocols are successfully implemented.
Some place this extension of information gathering to be in place by 2010. I would safely assume they have the necessary infrastructure already in place to monitor/mine the data, as it is already done surreptitiously under existing "black
helicopter ops". This just makes it legal ... and forces, through the slippery slopes of precedent, the imposition of US law on external sovereign entities...
Mexico and Canada being relatively easy to bring online (as staunch economic/security parters) and provides an excellent trial enviroment to roll out the "US law is World law" carpet. Feeling paranoid yet?
A real concern is the extension of this policy creating a real danger to the US --- all those wrongly placed on the no fly list that get angered enough to deserve placement on said list (self fulfilling prophecy anyone?)
IMHO, I don't think this will do anything exept create unnecessary havoc within the airline system and of course, all those innocent passengers. Most data collection simply cannot respond in real time to the threat: it is only of value in forensic analysis. Of course, I should not have to state the obvious:forged documentation nullifies the entire system. Unless of course one of you guys (or gals) has developed an algorithm that detects forgeries.... I digress...
Have you?!???!
@Phillip Rhodes
Well, here is someone who has some sense. Don't matter where you are. It is down to the general populous to do something about this rubbish. Stop watching the ball-hocks on TV. There is more important stuff to do. Not just the UK and the USA being messed up, the whole world is a mess. The terrorists have won. Well, they don't have to do anything. Easy victory. Well done them. We are turning on ourselves.
Yes, the UK has more surveillance cameras per person than anywhere else (www.thecctvcompany.co.uk/cctvfacts.htm). Sad really. I even bought one myself.
To that Nick H chappie - well, you just need to go along and study some of the US foreign policy over the last 100 years. No time? No worries mate, here it is: Nasty foreign chap has whatever we want, we mess up your government, take over (CIA dope calypso), get what we want. Done.
Anyway, coffee time here. Bye.
The proposed regulation is for the airlines to submit the people THAT THEY KNOW ABOUT beginning 72 hours prior to departure.
The hard-cut-off in the proposed regulation is 30 minutes prior to departure. That passenger information must be submitted 30 minutes prior. So, you can't show up at the airport and get a ticket and get on as the door is closing.
But hell, that's true _now_ with 30 minute lines for security and 30 minute lines for human assistance at the ticket counter.
I see no problem here.
I'm glad I moved to Canada. I was in my first year of Uni in the US when the planes hit the towers, and my prof told the class that one of two things would happen, either the US security would collapse and would become an open country (Like it used to be.. you know, give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free?), or would completely close down on its self. I was telling people that as much as I hoped for the former, I knew the later would be the case.
I jumped at the first chance I had to move to Canada and become a permanent resident here.. going to be a citizen eventually. Best decision I ever made. Once we get MiniBush (Harper) out of office (he doesn't have much power right now, so the damage he can do is much more limited) we'll be peachy. The US scares me these days. I still visit my family every year in the states... but maybe not for much longer.
Oh, and the UK isn't any better.. all those cameras and just as many idiot policies. It's just the UK policies are more targetted to its own people I'd say, where as the US policeis try to give them a thin veil of protecting against external threats.
Have they proposed a maximum turnaround time? If I'm about to embark on a 3-leg, 30 hour trip to America, and I need to get 'approval' 72 hours in advance of my departure (even if the last leg is the only one that is to, or over, America), and the turnaround is, say, 24 hours... ouch. The trip would have to be booked at least 5 days in advance.
Okay, let's propose an alternative. China did a great job of this a while back. Haliburton and a couple other private firms should be contracted to build a nice, picturesque wall around the entire country. Think of the tourist dollars that that would generate! Even better, they'd only have to maintain the outside of the wall if they add most of the earth's population to the no-fly list! Brilliant! Errrmm....
What would make United Shitheads of America (The guys in DC!) get their act together the fastest? The political backlash from imposing the same rules on all Americans travelling abroad, as they are imposing on everybody else, or if the rest of the world stopped lending DC more money before they'd started to pay their debts?
I sincerely suggest that all US travellers get treated the same EVERYWHERE as USA treats foreigners in THEIR country, that is: Instinctively treat you as a criminal until otherwise proven.
I do also think that it would be a pretty good idea to refuse selling anything to ANYONE wanting to pay in US$, until the natinal debt is paid. In full.
//Svein
Muslim problem? How's that for an flame inducing blinkered statement? Most Muslims, like Christians (and others), are fairly moderate, peaceful types. Heck, the holy books of each preach peace, forgiveness and the spreading of the faith.
It's the irritational, bigotted nutters that are the problem. Those that "read" poorly translated and re-written texts, remove them from all context and attempt to apply their words as, erm, "bible".
Thankfully the number of such nutters are quite low. Unfortunately a great way to increase the numbers of nutters is to invade other countries. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.
"Time for a restoration of Imperial rule and wide dispersal of good ol' European pure bred sperm"
Where can we enrol for that Holy Program, Campbell?:-)
"Why don't we just hand over the keys to the Americans now and go home?
Because I have full confidence in the security of their databases" ....
but their databases would obviously give you zero confidence in them should you read the contents, Anonymous Coward .... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/10/12/crew_motion_for_backup_tapes/
Seems like the Privatisation of Democracy has hit a SOX w3c compliant snag ........ and the plan to outmob the Mob has hit an iceberg probably due in no small part to the coke mountain which addles their senses.
"Criticize the "Special Education" reject that sits in the Oval Office."...Crikey, Ogberi, the UK has one of those too, sitting in No 10 and at the Cabinet Office table.
"Oh, and I agree with Brendan, amanfrommars is making sense today. perhaps because it's friday?" .... Must be maybe a payday thing?
"The last time we left you to yourselves, you invented hitler. Great idea." .... Nick H, Your people must be cracked me up to invent OBL? What happened? Did they not understand the Obi-Wan Kenobi Life Parallel?
Which, if it be true, would make .."So it's fine by me - you guys stay out of the US - and hopefully we can return ALL of our troops home. None of you deserve our help. The only reason you HAVE the freedom to spout this nonsense is because of the US. So knock yourselves out. Hopefully next time we'll just wave and let you sink." just a little bit sick, Nick H.
Although probably cracked up says it all so please "Take your toys and go home" which pretty much tells IT like it is.
And how pathetic that Hollywood is so impotent ....... although that is probably due to them having no Real Script to Follow religiously for Powerful Continuity. A Simple Failure which Money provides.
Uncle Sam hasn't QuITe got the hang of this Cyber Control Lark, have they, because if they had, we wouldn't be having these conversations. And that leaves them, Vulnerable by Default, to anything and everything Sensibly Shared.
I wonder how they would propose to Fix that Omission should they propose to Fix that Omission?
...is that she won't go to bed on time, and tries to fight with her baby brother, and that he hasn't got any teeth yet
Sadly*, it's going to be "sorry, kids, we can't go to disneyworld, the country it's in thinks you or your mum might try to blow it up"
*ok, not sadly, disneyworld only looks fun to me during the annual yellowfest in January
Nick H
"...The last time we left you to yourselves, you invented hitler. Great idea.
So it's fine by me - you guys stay out of the US - and hopefully we can return ALL of our troops home. None of you deserve our help. The only reason you HAVE the freedom to spout this nonsense is because of the US. So knock yourselves out. Hopefully next time we'll just wave and let you sink..."
Because the US has a great track record of unilateral intervention.Somalia=loss, Bay of Pigs=fiasco, Iran-contra=embarrasing, Vietnam=well, we won't go there right now.
Every time there's a co-ordinated approach with a county that can outhink an orange? Sierra Leone, Cold War, Former Yugoslavia, the conflict phases of the gulf, Korea.. . turns out a bit better really.
As for not blaming the population, unfortunately in a democracy the right thinking are doomed to pay the price for the ignorant majority. Otherwise we'd have got rid of the Blair/Brown gestalt years ago...
I think John Carpenter's doing the planning for the future US policy, where's Plisken when you need him?
"The last time we left you to yourselves, you invented hitler."
Get this through your thick head, sunshine. If it hadn't been for US "help" at the end of the First World War, it's unlikely that Hitler would ever have become more than a struggling artist and wannabe politician.
The big mistake Clemenceau and Lloyd George made was to agree to the implementation of Woodrow Wilson's Fourteen Points. Irrespective of the right and wrongs of the situation, the Hapsburg Empire was a sizeable check against Germany. Breaking it up, and dividing Germany, resulted in a lot of small states, based around ethnic majorities, that had next to no established political systems or armed forces and were not particularly well suited to independent survival. Czechoslovakia, Austria, Romania and Poland all contained sizeable German minorities - enough to give some justification to Hitler's foreign policies and let him gather some foreign support. He had more justification, I might add, than your government had for invading Iraq.
That's without the Washington Naval Treaty. Your government explicitly threatened a transatlantic arms race. Britain had a world-wide empire and needed a large navy. You didn't. League of Nations? Yeah, only as long as the US was the big bully boy. If the US had been told to get lost at Versailles, WW2 might have been avoided.
And when the chips were down, after 1929, you fucked off into isolationism, just when things were ripe for extremism to flourish in Europe. People in Germany were scared of a repeat of the 1920s inflation. Enough of them voted for the Nazis that the most democratic decision President Hindenburg could do was to appoint Hitler Chancellor.
The rest, as they say, is history.
That's why we need the EU, and for it to be strong enough to shake the US government warmly by the throat if need be. Europe has suffered enough from America's selfish attitude and ignorant idealism.
@Anon:
"Regarding the Muslims and Russians ... it's you they have a problem with, because you are such complete arseholes.
We in the UK have unfortunately gotten ourselves into trouble because we are helping you.
[sentence excised by Reg Moderator]"
Wow, considering the usual content of El Reg comments....I would love to know what managed to get itself moderated....
Maybe it made too much sense for a Friday?
There are already plenty of things broken in the world so we don't need to invent new ones. Please don't add to the plethora of (mis)information. To quote astute reader "Rob" who accurately stated:
-----------------------------------------------
Christ! I take it none of you buggers bothered to read the pdf before diving in to slag off all things American?
OK, first off:
YOU CAN STILL BOOK A LAST MINUTE FLIGHT AND FLY. [emphasis added]
Got that? The airlines only have to provide whatever info they already have at the 72 hour mark.
It's there in B&W. The documents says "Additionally, for reservations made within 72 hours of scheduled flight departure time, covered aircraft operators would be required to transmit Secure Flight Passenger Data as soon as possible."
In other words, TSA is saying "It would be difficult to check all the records at the last minute, but if we get most of them in advance, we can do the remaining ones at short notice, no problem.
Second, while the airlines have to provide all the info listed IF AVAILABLE, you only have to give them your full name. Again, from TFD:
"As currently proposed, it is optional for individuals to provide their date of birth and gender in order to provide individuals with the greatest ability to exercise control over the data elements provided. For the vast majority of individuals, a decision to forgo providing these data elements should have no effect and will result in aircraft operators, reservations agents, and TSA holding less information. For what is expected to be a relatively small number of individuals, however, a decision not to provide date of birth and gender will result in an inability to automatically distinguish them from someone on the watch list."
that the rest of the world starts to treat US citizens abroad, just the same way USA treats any foreigner there. Like criminals.
I also suggest
that until the USofA has started paying down their international debt, the rest of the world stops accepting US$ as payment, as it's obvious the US$ is about to collapse totally (unless the USofA does something drastic).
Two simple steps, to handle a country that has gone down the drain totally.
//Svein
...is really simple. Why not simply extend the wall that the US have been building along a large section of the border with Mexico. Extend it right around the whole of the USA and stop any foreigners flying, sailing, swimming or walking into the USA. Or over it. Or under it. Now, the next step is to repatriate all US citizens back to "god's own country". Then send all of the foreigners that are in the USA back "home".
That should sort everything out, once and for all, eh?
Oh. It will only be Red Indians left there then, won't it...
Fortunately, there are ways & means to get in to, & out of, a country other than through an airport. Back channels will always exist, regardless of state. There is always a way to neutralise anything that a government chooses to push upon people. Likewise, a monolithic government (whether America, the EU or whichever) will never be able to overcome every last grain of humanity. Their gargantuan size makes them obvious targets as 'mechanisms to be spannered' - & simply spannered they are. The correct cog jammed, removed etc. & the whole thing will become ineffectual. The People are not so fearful as those in government; officials who succeed in self-reinforcing state-detectionist ideals, with colleagues.
Constance: As a non-American, if this is any small comfort; I still have a shred of good faith in the America, which you speak of. My word is my bond; rebuild this knowledge, & your country will be restored.
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