'al-Qaeda' puts on big shoes, red nose, takes custard pie

@Try a different gas next time...

Though it is all well and good laughing at these guys, it really is actually quite difficult to make a really decent explosion using flamable gases or dusts.

As pointed out Propane in particular has quite a narrow band between the Lower and Upper Explosive Limits (these are upper and lower ratios of fuel to air/oxygen at which a well mixed gas will explode), at which the stuff will actually go bang at all. To get the mixture just right to make an even halfway decent explosion is really very tricky as the futher you move away from the stociometric mix (forgive my spelling) the engergy released drops. As pointed out they may have been better with Acetylene which has a huge band in which it will explode, which allows for less precision, though to get a really good bang you still need just the right mix of fuel to air.

The fact of the matter is getting things to blow up at all is a tricky business. High explosives are very difficult to make,transport and store even with a good level of know-how becuase by their nature they're unstable; and making an effective explosion out of common flamable gases and dusts is likewise very difficult to do outside of a controlled environment.

God forbid that terrorist actually ever work out that blowing things up isn't always very effective way of killing people and that something much more mundain such as a fire in the wrong location could easily be far worse, and far easier.

Though it's easy to laugh, the fact of the matter is however that they still intended to commit mass murder on a large scale, and that is what is worrying.

Its only a matter of time...

...before someone remembers the good old fertiliser bomb.

I believe that was what the original WTC bomb was based on, not to mention the docklands bomb which almost brought down several buildings.

I know how easy it is to make one - we used to muck about with this stuff when I was in University. All you need is a drum of ordinary farm fertiliser (nitrogen based - straight out of the sack) and mix in a certain proportion of diesel. Stick in a detonator and you're good to go, with enough bang to cause a lot of harm in a decent radius. To make a much bigger version, its the same recipe except you need to encase the detonator in something like TNT (which can fairly easily be cooked up in a basic lab) to get the reaction started. (Yes we tried that too, and tested it on a remote beach with spectacular results)

The point I'm hinting at, is that yes recent events were pretty pitiful, but eventually someones going to have a proper go. What we really need is for the government of this country to stop messing about with foreign regimes who are no threat to the UK, and learn to use diplomacy rather than threats. The only result of this is that these regimes *become* a threat!

Apologist I don't think so, but at least I can actually understand what I claim to read

John A Blackley & friend

Obviously you have your own agenda, which involves allegedly reading an article and then ignoring its contents (you don't work in Downing St do you ?)

Having lived in Belfast (almost constantly) between 1968 & 2004 I can happily say I have a loathing for all those who use violence to make whatever point they imagine they have. You never ignored the risks but you learned to judge what is real and this weeks attempts would have been laughed at and ignored.

Unfortunitely as we now see an unsuccessful (and incompetant) attack has succeded in yet another knee jerk reaction by the nanny state, and is justified by the goverment and the chattering classes.

You would have thought that they would have tested their bombs to see of they worked (even the dumbest little chav knows gas canisters seldom if ever explode these days when they have their Friday night enterainment)

This morning Canary Wharf security staff proved their usefulness by searching the bags of anybody entering via the western 'turnstyles' but ignoring those approaching from the north and south. I'm just glad I didn't bring any fuel for my zippo today

I also noticed that the Sunday, papers said that the 'bombs' in London where to be triggered by mobile phone, yet in the next paragraph they said the bombs where defused 2 minutes before they where due to explode.

Could they please make up their minds ?

I'm tired of hype, and I'm tired of the goverment selling fear, no doubt they will claim that ID cards would have prevented the event from ever occuring.

Propane gives a pretty nice bang (Pink Floyd discovered) when mixed with air (in the correct proportion), and is even better when mixed with acetlyne

The cost of amateur pyrotechnics

Great article, and a fine antidote to the "be very afraid" stuff doing the rounds elsewhere. I have to confess, I had to laugh at the reports of the Glasgow airport attack, not least as the cop in the video clip appeared to be grinning as he pinned the partially roasted Comedy Terrorist to the floor.

But one thing occurs to me; perhaps the visual bang IS enough to achieve some of the aims. The thing that ultimately brought the UK government to "talk to terrorists" was money; the threat to the City in terms of disruption of business and spiralling insurance costs that began to threaten London's viability as a global financial centre. This, more than loss of life, led to the eventual negotiations.

One of the IRA's most cost-effective campaigns was a cheap-and-cheerful firebombing campaign on the tube, in the early nineties I think. A few fag packet sized devices under seats on the Tube - few of which ever went off - caused massive disruption, and a lot of checking under seats of the entire tube fleet, with seals placed on checked seats. No death, little damage, plenty of panic and plenty of cost.

A quick look at the video of Glasgow airport and Haymarket looks much the same. Large numbers of well paid cops doing fingertip searches over a wide area. The cost of forensics, organising what will surely be an expensive prosecution and trial with attendant security cost. Interruption to business and serious long term disruption to air travel all hit the national wallet hard. Look at the effect of last summers "binary bomb" non-starter which didnt get beyond a bit of beardy male bonding and a few wild and implausible ideas - result; months of serious airport chaos.

Maybe handing the job to a bunch of amateur jihadis wasn't such a bad idea. They may end up with porridge instead of virgins, but the shoddy results still cost UK PLC a fortune, and it frees up the more competent bombers for more demanding work in Iraq etc.

hop over the pond for explosives

Well I from the Flemish part of Belgium and if you really need explosives why not go for a tour in the country side.

Farmers still dig up a lot of explosives used in WW1 (Fields of Flanders will make you remember) and they are up for grabs at the side of the road

take a look here

http://pierrescolumn.punt.nl/?a=2007-06 (go to 22 juni 2007 = 22nd of June 2007)

At least you then you would have something a bit more explosive than a bit of gasoline. Hell Buy a lot of laptop batteries from Sony I am sure they can give you a discount and set those on fire that will also produce a better result than what was tried here.

It is nice to see that nobody in the "real" news business cares about facts anymore. Makes me glad that I canceled my newspaper subscription.

You should be ashamed of yourself

You should be ashamed of yourself. Not for the obvious reason though. I think we're all agreed that it's wonderful that these so-called-terrorists are wildly inept, planning badly, lighting too soon, not using ready-to-go phones, leaving a trail a mile wide... And wow, the media are jumping on soemthing and making a story out of it that isn't there, well what a shock. That's never happened before, especially not in the UK media... And I will hug and kiss some poisonous snakes. Now <i>that's</i> sarcasm.

If anything, despite you're holier than thou attitiude, we should still be glad the intelligence services seem to have their shit together for once, and hopefully will prevent further comic attempts, as they may seem less funny when these clowns figure out what they're doing and actually hurt someone else.

But the reason you SHOULD be ashamed of yourself is simple. I have no idea what's really behind these attacks, but your attitude of 'let's indulge in some military adventurism' is sickening. You talk about body counts - well Iraq currently is approaching 700,000 dead civilians. There's your adventurism, dripping blood. I have no idea if Iraq is related to the current attacks, but you shouldn't joke about a war for oil that has killed more civilians than the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Whether you supported it or not, it's hard to have levity about that many families torn apart. Unless you trhink it's ok because they're foreign?

MikeC

terrorists... schmerrorists

As long as the government has its fingers up the media's butt this junk will be spun to seem like we are in peril from some kind of "threat".

It's good to see the Reg is prepared to air the other side to this - and it's refreshing read some sensible comments too.

Silly Season

There's nothing newsworthy going on now that GB has ascended to the throne. This petrol-bombing caper is manna from heaven for the TV and papers. Another excuse for a pointless satellite link-up to a junior reporter "live at the scene".

re: Apologist I don't think so, but at least I can actually understand what I claim to read

"I also noticed that the Sunday, papers said that the 'bombs' in London where to be triggered by mobile phone, yet in the next paragraph they said the bombs where defused 2 minutes before they where due to explode. Could they please make up their minds ?"

Maybe the phone rang two minutes after it was disconnected from the thing it was set to trigger? Doesn't seem too much of a stretch on my imagination to see how both those statements could be true. The papers also said the guy they arrested on the M6 had called the 'trigger' phone 4 times. I can just see the copper's face when the phone he had in his hand rang 2 minutes after he disconnected it.

What was that about understanding what you read? When there's so little actual 'fact' being reported, how can you 'understand' anything from it?

Good Read

MikeC: It was in jest, in relation to the papers saying we shouldn't of gone to war because it caused attacks like this. Not a comment on whether we should of gone to war or not.

Thanks for another good read Lewis, if only you could work out how to sell this view to the masses their might be a light at the end of the tunnel. However it seems that as long as such a big industry exists around protecting us and another big industry exists to 'inform us' (news IS entertainment these days) I have little hope.

RE: Testing

for sure, these "bombs" should never even have made it to UAT

Obviously not the all stars but stil...

This series of attacks was obviously farcically planned and carried out. There is no doubt that these people had no help from the Al Queda 'All Stars' altough this is hardly suprising considering there recent drawback from the outside world. Mainly due to American pressure in Warizan and Afghanistan.

However the intent is there in these attacks. Ametuerish and hyped up by the media, but something to be simply dismissed, definately not.

Proof of evolution.

The fact suicide bombers are becoming less competent is a clear demonstration of evolution in action, the competent ones all die.

Keep up the good work, this is the sort of story that would get me buying a newspaper again.

Student Ragweek

Was what I thought when I heard about the London cars.

As for the Scottish incident - isn't that normal for the Scot's - drinking petrol and smoking :-) If it had been done in England it would have just been classed as a protest about smoking in the workplace !!!!!

clusterfucks....

priceless.

I thought that was only used when it CS games everyone went for the same door at the same time. leading to the inevitable jam. The CT (of course) would cut them down, to cries of clusterfuck.

I hope the terrorist now realise that they are dealing with a public that have (virtual) experience of being CTs and always carry a pair of wire clippers to disarm the C4 the T's always carry around.

"you should be ashamed of yourself".

I disagree, MikeC. I'd much rather have this kind of reporting of this kind of story than the "OMG we're all going to die (again)" cobblers in the tabloids; if nothing else because it would make it far harder to justify all the draconian legislation the Government wants to implement if this attitude was taken.

Ideally these stories would be reported in a cool, factual and non sensationalistic way but then noone would buy newspapers. If this approach can replace the existing main stream "scaremongering" angle, then I am all for it; ok so it pokes fun, but it is more factual and down to earth than the main stream media reports.

David R

@ Its only a matter of time...

About fertiliser bombs. I believe most of the western governments control the most dangerous types.

Last summer in Canada, there was a fertiliser bomb plot. The mounties found out and switched the order with something harmless. Something like 17 people were caught in the ensuing operation.

Fertilizer Bomb what a joke

Sadly , if you read about the old Bali Night Club Bomb used in Indonesia you would realize just how inefficient they are in that you still need a large block Semtex(minimum 2 lbs or a kilo will do nicely) or other stable Army demolition plastic explosive to initiate the fire works and even then the it only works if the mixture is properly mixed in the correct proportions! I believe had the van consumed the full load , it would have totally leveled a considerable portion of the surrounding block rather then destroying just the night club!

By the way the fertilizer Bomb has an extremely high smell/odor quotient as well!

As for real explosives even the experts get it wrong fatally from time to time!

In closing a quote from Edward R Murrow "If we confuse dissent with disloyalty — if we deny the right of the individual to be wrong, unpopular, eccentric or unorthodox — if we deny the essence of racial equality, then hundreds of millions in Asia and Africa who are shopping about for a new allegiance will conclude that we are concerned to defend a myth and our present privileged status. Every act that denies or limits the freedom of the individual in this country costs us the. . . confidence of men and women who aspire to that freedom and independence of which we speak and for which our ancestors fought." "

Move along; nothing to see here...

Indeed, nothing to see here, another rather poor post by The Register where they're yet again unable to see the difference between a random gas canister included car crash on the M1 maybe killing the driver and the potential for the much larger amount of people exiting a nightclub at once at closing time when it's detonated.

Even then, arguably a more important point again is missed with this article is that terrorism is about mass murder. This reason, mass murder, is the very reason these stories are given more notice than your average joyriding youth burning out the car afterwards. It's not just about the bombs themselves, whether failed or succeeded but about the fact there's people who come here (or in some cases are born here) with the aim of killing large groups of people at once, that's the crux of the problem. Do you also think we should not have reports about the likes of Fred West in our news because after all, more people die to the flu every year than mass murderers so it's not worth reporting right?

One final note is about the attempt to validate the credibility of the reporter by noting he served with bomb disposal... until 2004. This also validates that he's obviously pretty new to reporting, it begs the question why he feels qualified to question mainstream media reporters with years of experience in this case, yet it also clarifies why he's completely missed the point of said reports.

I know it's nice to play the underdog, be the guy with the alternative viewpoint to try and stand out and get some attention, but like the 9/11 conspiracy theorists all you in fact end up doing is looking rather paranoid and perhaps even somewhat crazy.

El Reg T-Shirts

Maybe time for a new El Reg T-Shirt - "Bomb Squad - If you see me walking noncholantly walking away, try and keep up".

Doctors eh?

The Independent today carries the headline "Brilliant student, doctor - and now a terror suspect". Is it only me who worries that todays medical education neglects to equip its practitioners with sufficient basic chemistry to know that a suitable supply of oxygen is needed for a chemical explosion worth the name? probably cause more damage by simply not washing their hands (err, now there's a thought)

North American media overreaction ...

I find it sad that there doesn't seem to be balance in reporting of this on either side of the Atlantic. Last evening, I watched several articles on these clowns.

In only one clip there was a Scotland Yard rep being interviewed who tried to put them in their proper place.

One of the worst clips was a simulation where a NM University blew up a Jeep with propane tanks. They parked it right beside a wooden shack and used bolts (claimed nails would make too much of a mess).

It was all very subjective. Nice fireball but well contained. Not satisfied the reporter was saying how the bolts "rained down like bullets" many yards away.

There was no real assessment of if or how much harm and risk people would have experienced.

I suspect the average downtown night club is a bit more fire resistant than a garden shed. The curbs would surely have placed the car further from the target.

Even when we get these incompetent attempts, why do the media play into the fear? Far too many people believe what gets reported and the terrorists get what they wanted. Fear.

BBC Noise 24

...described the Glasgow embarrassment as "the Glasgow Airport catastrophe".

Presumably a man slipping on a banana skin would be reported now as the "Acacia Avenue outrage".

Bloggers

Ive been arguing this on on a couple of blogs, and im seeing a very clear split along the traditional left/right divide. Its interesting to note that the two big factions of politics are now even disagreeing over basic physics.

In general, the left-faction is trying to downplay this as an incompetant attack that would at best have killed a couple of people, and that only with a lot of luck. The right-faction then argues (usually less politely) that this almost killed hundreds of people, and that the left are a bunch of liberal cowards who are so scared of offending muslims they would rather see more terrorist attacks than admit there is a problem. The left returns fire with a claim that the right is hyping the attacks out of all proportion in order to score political points and win votes. Before long it degenerates into a factional shouting match.

So, just another week as usual on the political blogs. Where factional loyalty matters more than real issues.

Tired of bigots, apologists and career building experts

Clipped

-----

Maybe the phone rang two minutes after it was disconnected from the thing it was set to trigger? Doesn't seem too much of a stretch on my imagination to see how both those statements could be true. The papers also said the guy they arrested on the M6 had called the 'trigger' phone 4 times. I can just see the copper's face when the phone he had in his hand rang 2 minutes after he disconnected it.

-----

I considered that at the time, but considering the length of time the car had been sitting, and the other one had been left long enough to be towed away.

Surely if you are going to trigger with a mobile phone you will be close enough to make sure there is atleast something close enough to damage, as triggering 'on command' allows such an option.

After speaking to the reoprter who wrote that part of the article the phrase "due to go off" was apparently quoted from the security services, with the implication that it was a timer. I pointed this out to the reporter and he didn't see the difference between phone triggered and timer triggered (a tree stump has a higher IQ)

Thinking about it, if they where so poor at choosing the explosive, I wonder how reliable their trigger would have been ?

Clip

-----

What was that about understanding what you read? When there's so little actual 'fact' being reported, how can you 'understand' anything from it?

-----

I was referring to the reg article not the 3rd press reports we have been fed with.

The Glasgow incident has been upgraded from burning vehicle (accurate) to car bomb (inaccurate). I have no beef against the members of the security services who do something useful. However the ones talking up the fear level to justify overseas conferences and higher budgets are a different matter

Just because they where completely incompetant, dosn't make any difference to their original intent to commit murder.

As for the Iraq violence, I hold a sever grudge against the US & UK goverments actions.

However it is Iraqui killing Iraqui, these tensions have always been there, but they where too afraid of the previous leadership. Yes the invasion (without any plan for the future) the underlying bigotry to run wild. BUT it is the choice of Iraqui extermists to carry on this pointless waste of life

Competence in one field...

...doesn't translate into competence in another. I've got a mechanical engineering degree, but it doesn't mean I still remember how to use a lathe like I did in Mechanical Lab 25 years ago or can fix a car. And involvement in IT (I'm assuming of "You ought to be ashamed...") doesn't automatically confer perspective.

Or a sense of humor. If 7/7 and a few hangfires are the price of "indulging in military adventurism," then, going by the scorecard, Salman Rushdie can safely write a sequel to The Satanic Verses and not worry again until 2025. Except maybe for his marriage. That's a joke, son.

Hat tip to you folks for the article. Thanks to the cops and traffic wardens who averted even the handful of deaths these attempts could have caused. Security issues, even meatspace ones, hold lessons for IT security, so this article is relevant.

Not all of us Yanks are wetting our collective bed because of the not-especially-scary bogeyman hiding under it. Some of us are snickering at said bogeyman's resulting golden shower. I grew up under the threat of nuclear annihilation or at least winter. Now, growing up in the 1970s, I thought it would be kinda cool, Mad Max style, or maybe involve telepathic sheepdogs, but, still, al-Qaeda just don't stack up to a stack of SS-19 ICBMs. I'm not gonna let a bunch of amateur terrorists spook me into giving away the few rights I've got left.

Spook 7/7

The 7/7 bombers were under substantial spook surveillance - see Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed, 2006, The London Bombings: An Independent Inquiry, London: Duckworth.

RE: You should be ashamed of yourself

N1AK: If you're right and it was in jest, then i'll partially retract it - I still don't think it's suitable for joking about, if only because it's too convenient for us to forget. I don't link Iraq to the current events necessarily, but I do think that people shoul dremain conscientious in the face of what's become commonplace.

David R: You may be right, but I'd worry that these idiots will look at what they did, and the chasm between that and the increasingly common knowledge about what was done more professionally by PIRA and the IRA before them. The danger is that they'll improve, and hurt someone, or at least avoid traceability next time in case they screw up again. The best part at the moment is that they're leaving a trail, and their colleagues are getting collared now. But I will agree with you that it's good to see non-panic-mode media response alright, even if it then leans to the far extreme

totally true

what can i say, for to long i though i was the only one that thought the level of over reaction in this country is staggering, people just dont like it when i tell them it thou.

good post!

At last, some sense.

Great article, I've been arguing a lot of those points until I'm blue in the face.

It does seem to make the assumption, though, that the intention of the perpetrators was to cause large-scale death and destruction.

The intention ~could~ have been to do exactly what they did do - make a bit of a flash and a bang and scare the shit out of the west aided with boundless enthusiasm by the media and government - no reason for terrorists not to use those tools against us for a bit of psyops (and yup, I mean 'tools' in both senses).

That would help explain the apparently poor choice of target, payload and execution by otherwise apparently educated people and given the resulting fear and disruption could therefore count as a success rather than a cock-up.

That is, of course, pure speculation but as pure speculation comprises 98% of what the mainstream media is feeding us on this story right now I'm not feeling too bad a little speculation myself.

Unbelievable!

I am amazed that with all this "expertese" and erudite conclusions by pundits, that no one has come to the obvious conclusion that this attack was perpetrated by Suni Muslim Insurgents (Capitals intended to describe a group not a religious sect).

During the Iraq invasion their hard core militia vowed to carry on a guerrilla war, as they have in Iraq, but there is no reason for them to confine themselves to there if they can infiltrate the NHS with ease.Being doctors and trainees one would not expect their bombmaking skills to be advanced , but they will improve, especially if one their more experienced brothers from Baghdad joins them.

If a petrol loaded SUV is so ineffectual how did an occupant catch fire after he had left it?Also, if fertilizer is so inefficient, what exactly happened in Oaklahoma?

Unbelievable?

Uneblievable?

"this attack was perpetrated by Suni Muslim Insurgents" (it's spelled 'Sunni')

It could also have been a hit by the Badr Brigade.

Seriously, that was tongue-in-cheek use of a pre-existing Mainstream Media Label (MML) to something that's quite different in nature. Right?

> If a petrol loaded SUV is so ineffectual how did an occupant catch fire after he had left it?

Spontaneous combustion? Wanted to have a smoke? Came into contact with fireworks?

> Also, if fertilizer is so inefficient, what exactly happened in Oaklahoma? (It's spelled 'Oklahoma City')

Trained Marine got the mix right and knew what he was doing?

"because Marines kill ... everything they see"

Re: T-shirts

The one I'd like to get would be: "The Register Bomb Squad: Protecting the World From Terrorist Clowns"

Wishful thinking

" If a petrol loaded SUV is so ineffectual how did an occupant catch fire after he had left it? "

Because he was flinging petrol all over the already-burning car after he got out of it. That was reported in all the stories, so if you don't know that, it just goes to show that your "obvious" conclusions are nothing more than your personal pre-existing beliefs presented without the slightest actual knowledge of the situation.

Why do people think that whatever they make up in their own imagination without any reference to external reality is even remotely likely to be true?

And incidentally.

If the Glasgow (Globally Indoctrinated?)

pair had used their mates Mercedes they could not have swerved into the terminal- but of course you know why!

Also I have not noticed that English spelling is great on this site,but as a seasoned traveller I am sure you have noted that local spelling does vary and ethnic groups have many different names, like BRITS

Well if all else fails

They can charge two of them with smoking in a public building.

I gather they were at school together. And have recently got together again using Friends Reignited.

A new PM... alright quick somebody whip up a scare for the new guy

1st off, very well said. I recently stopped reading CNN online news as they seem to have lost all journalistic decency as well as changed the site to a most annoying format. And you should see the comments about this story (what a laugh). I simply had to search out some commentary with a bit of common sense.

Are kidding me? Gas cans and nails ...and igniting it with a cell phone? Come on now. What load of crap! And these guys are doctors?! How is it that people that well studied and intelligent could screw up so badly (not that I wish that they'd succeeded), but it just doesn't fit.

I have VERY serious doubts about the authenticty of the whole affair. I looks very badly staged at the last minute type stuff.

I am also pleased to hear other voices of common sense and dissent for the lapdog media outlets, but they have to make a living too. So what if it's at the expense of truth? What possble consequense or reprecussions could that possibly have on humanity?

t-shirts - excellent idea.

I could quite happily go for one with Churchill and the motto about what he would have done.

Anyone remember a science fiction story by Norman Spinrad (I think) - published in the Destinies book/magazines in the seventies where a global terrorist threat is defeated by laughing at their incompetance - "Very Proper Charlies" or something along those lines. This fantastic article brought back happy memories of that and of the Judean Peoples Liberation Front from Life Of Brian.

Perhaps humour might be one of our best weapons against any supposed or real threat to our civil liberties from AQ and the Grey Men running the country. The second world war was no laughing matter for those going through it but it didn't stop us finding humour where we could ("Hitler has only got one ball....")

If this is how competant these docs were at following basic intructions off the net we should be grateful they are not going to be allowed anywhere near patients anymore. RTFM...

Reality?

"Why do people think that whatever they make up in their own imagination without any reference to external reality is even remotely likely to be true?"

Ha ha.

When you can answer this you will be ready for a more senior management position.

21/7 - no-bombs bombers

The day before these events, the jury in the 21/7 'no-bombs' bombers trial retired to consider their verdict. No time was lost before parallels were drawn by the media between the men 'running away' from the cars and the 'running away' from the scenes after the chappati flour/bleach/tea bag bombs on 21/7 oozed out onto the floor of the trains/bus.

The media covered the extensive explosion that these no-bombs would have caused, accompanied by vivid pictures from the explosives lab at Fort Halstead. Screaming headlines that these no-bombs would have brought down the tower block in which they were constructed and led to mass casualties. Professor Hans Michels, wanting to see justice done, conducted his own experiments at his own expense and proved that these no-bombs would not cause explosions. Very little media coverage of this, and certainly no headlines.

Now the charges of 'conspiracy to cause explosions likely to endanger life' previously faced by each man, has been quietly left off the indictment. No headlines accompany this news either. How precisely the accused can now be charged with conspiracy to murder without conspiring to cause explosions we shall have to wait and see.

It also came to light during the trial that these men were under surveillance in 2004 - all except Asiedu who had tried to join the army - and who 'turned against the other defendants' during this trial.

Can we expect indeterminate life sentences when the jury deliver their verdict, not based on the evidence, but influenced by subsequent events?

Klown Kar

The author should reveal that he was pressured by MI5 not to report that there were actually *37* terr'ists that jumped out of the burning car, one at a time...

Things that are actually scary

Include the fact that the most popular petition on the (slightly bizarre) petitions page on the 10 Downing St website is a racist ramble about a non-existant mosque which makes no sense. Ten of thousands of people have signed it and it is total rubbish about something which isn't going to happen. This drivel is the direct result of media scare mongering. No-one should be ashamed of themselves for saying that actually some bloke driving his car into a bollard isn't a good reason for the erosion of our rights and the growing insipid racism of the media

So did other explosive experts lie?

A quote from explosives expert Andy Oppenheimer, editor of Nuclear, Biological and Chemical International on the 29th of June:

"If the first bomb had gone off, people inside the Tiger Tiger nightclub would have stood no chance. This looks as if it was something like propane. We are talking about highly incendiary qualities which would have made a big fire, probably destroyed buildings and caused mass fatalities,'' he said.

People would have stood "no chance"?? So are we to assume that this guy is either lying or is incompetent?

Economist quotes Lewis

Mr Page's "terror-clowns" have made it into the hallowed pages - see:

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9441495&fsrc=nwl

(I hope this is 'free to view')

No tip o' the hat to El Reg, though :-(

If I were a conspiracy theorist....

I would probably consider it significant that these incompetents were backtraced most rapidly using a database of data obtained via RIP from the telecomms providers who provided their mobile phones, Just as a statutory instrument to activate the final and most controversial part of RIP (the access to data and encryption keys section) is to be laid before parliament for approval.

But nah, its probably just a coincidence :)