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UK spies: You know how we said bulk device hacking would be used sparingly? Well, things have 'evolved'...

Anonymous Coward
Anonymous Coward

Belgian telcos will have to up their game now. Can't have all those waffle recipes remaining secret!

Peter2
Silver badge

You'd hope the Begium teclos have upped their game significantly already. The Belgium government might not be of any interest to anybody in the world, but the same does not apply to the EU parliament and EU commission.

If we are/were the only people spying on them then that is probably because GCHQ secured the systems behind their own hack to lock other attackers out.

GnuTzu
Bronze badge
Big Brother

Lotta Waffles

Oh, just that use of the word "bulk" creeps me out.

David Shaw

I'm more worried [ https://howmanydaystill.com/its/brexit-6 ] that someone continental might unplug the whole of UK from the internet on CE/R&TTE grounds due to too much electrical interference!

Perhaps there are plans to reroute transatlantic cables to Eire, then to Brittany, then on to waffle-land. It's not that inconceivable from where I'm sitting, but hopefully it won't happen, the unplugging - so carry-on interfering electrically, and don't panic, otherwise you'll all have to spy on yourselves rather a lot. I know that your tier partners would still like to send you squirrely stuff, but that can be sent by standardised carrier pigeon rfc2549 or perhaps by covert Clacks from Cap Gris-Nez?

_LC_

But of course

"If we are/were the only people spying on them then that is probably because GCHQ secured the systems behind their own hack to lock other attackers out."

Sorry for raping your sister. I just wanted to ensure that nobody else was gonna rape her. *Hmmm*?!?

Danny 2
Silver badge

"the same does not apply to the EU parliament and EU"

NATO and SWIFT are maybe more concerning than the EU, and they're HQed in Belgium too.

John Smith 19
Gold badge
Unhappy

"Sorry for raping your sister. I just wanted to ensure that nobody else was gonna rape her."

Pretty much.

Although when you say it like that you make it sound so psychopathic.

Mycho
Silver badge

Re: "Sorry for...

The first ever trial for virus/worm writing included the phrase 'we do not thank terrorists for improving airport security'

Decades later it's still worth remembering.

h4rm0ny
Silver badge

And yet at the time, there were those saying this wouldn't happen.

There are always those saying these things wont happen. And by the time it does, they're busy saying something else wont happen and that everybody knew the other thing would and why are you still talking about it?

When new powers are introduced, unless penalties are for misuse of those powers are introduced at the same time, they will always be abused.

Zippy´s Sausage Factory

When new powers are introduced, unless penalties are for misuse of those powers are introduced at the same time, they will always be abused.

As I always say, you should never never give the government any powers a rabbi wouldn't be comfortable giving to Hitler.

DCFusor
Silver badge

"When new powers are introduced, unless penalties are for misuse of those powers are introduced at the same time, they will always be abused."

Optimist. Haven't you watched long enough to see how redefinition/spin/selective enforcement work in the real world? How about "There are apparently no exceptions whatever to power always being abused".

Christoph
Silver badge

Mission creep? Good grief! Who could possibly have expected that? (Aside from everyone who isn't actually living on Rockall).

}{amis}{
Silver badge
Trollface

(Aside from everyone who isn't actually living on Rockall).

I'm told that there is a thriving population of amoeba on Rockall and am almost certain that they have a better grasp of the situation than people like miss hashtags.

Mark 65
Silver badge

It seems they haven't learned anything from what happened after the Snowden revelations. We found out that they were listening into everything so companies and by extension individuals moved to https over http and encrypted over plaintext. Now they want to put malware on everyone's devices so that the encryption is useless - ignoring the fact that it will be impossible to secure their malware from anyone else that wants to use it. This will only lead to a rise in fully segregated OSes like Qubes and then they'll fucking whine about that.

How about you use the powers sparingly and in a targeted manner and not like a ADHD kid hyped on sugar and perhaps people won't secure the bejesus out of everything? Although the horse has likely bolted on that one due to your immoral "bulk" nonsense.

Queeg

Well, Well

What a surprise.

Who'da thought they'd want to overuse a handy tool they were given.

Never has my Flabber been so Gasted.

still waiting for that sarcasm icon El Reg

Sir Runcible Spoon
Silver badge
Meh

Re: Well, Well

"still waiting for that sarcasm icon El Reg"

Can't you make do with the poker-face? -->

Voland's right hand
Silver badge

Re: Well, Well

Who'da thought they'd want to overuse a handy tool they were given.

Happens to every tool like that. It is only a matter of time until intelligence assets are used against opposition too. At least in Banana republics. If you are not counting down, I am.

Mark 85
Silver badge
Facepalm

Re: Well, Well

Try the facepalm....

Mephistro
Silver badge
Devil

Re: Well, Well

"...still waiting for that sarcasm icon El Reg..."

For that purpose, I often use the "Spawn of Satan" icon.

Whitter
Boffin

The underlying message

It seems to me that what they are saying is that they will pretty much try their damnedest to sniff all encrypted traffic if they can. Hide in plain sight may be the only option for the <insert bad group here>

BebopWeBop
Silver badge

Re: The underlying message

Our politicians seem to thrive that way.....

Ledswinger
Silver badge

Re: The underlying message

Hide in plain sight may be the only option for the <insert bad group here>

I think you'll find that the IBGH already do. They realised long ago that the US had the ability to backdoor or hack most IT and comms hardware, from user devices through modems, routers, network switches to DC hardware, and even if a digital or voice message can be securely encrypted end-to-end, it still gives things away in duration, locations, and the network of contacts.

Far safer to use a chain of disposable couriers given idiot codes. The courier doesn't understand the code, so the best the "official" side can do is hope to disrupt the transmission - and unless it knows the couriers it can't easily track and disrupt it. Even if they get lucky, intercepting the transmission and seizing the code doesn't help because it can't be cracked and the courier doesn't know what it means.

Ultimately if you throw enough surveillance at it this can be tracked from "head office" down to operatives, but just look how long it took the US to find IBL, with the entire weight of the Western world's intelligence agencies on the job, along with military surveillance assets, and for all practical terms no legal oversight or restraint. And despite the billions spent on that, the Taliban are resurgent in Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia is drifting back into its Wahabi extremism. I really don't see how bulk EI is going to help in the failed wars on terror, drugs and motorists.

John Smith 19
Gold badge
Gimp

"I really don't see how bulk EI is going to help in the failed wars on terror, drugs and motorists."

What makes you think this is their "enemy" ?

It's their excuse.

The real enemy of all data fetishists is everyone.

Everyone who says things they can't hear.

Everyone who thinks things they don't know about.

Because once you have 6 lines from an honest man you can find something to hang them with.

Mark 65
Silver badge

Re: The underlying message

Bulk surveillance is about quashing dissent. It is about preventing the rise of a leader capable of bringing about the demise of the military industrial complex and upsetting the status quo. It is about their enemies not ours. Every now and again they might stumble upon the odd useful bone to throw out to justify their existence. Bulk surveillance is useless for its stated purpose. Always has been, always will be. When one of the architects of mass surveillance - William Binney - states that it is useless for their intended aims you know that's not its purpose.

}{amis}{
Silver badge
Big Brother

Admirable transparency by @GCHQ ??????

Call me a cynic but my first taught at seeing that was that they have been caught with their pants down somehow, and now want to spin the message before the $%!t hits the fan.

Anonymous Coward
Anonymous Coward

Number Six: Where am I?

Number Two: In the Village.

Number Six: What do you want?

Number Two: Information.

Number Six: Whose side are you on?

Number Two: That would be telling. We want information… information… information.

Number Six: You won't get it.

Number Two: By hook or by crook, we will.

Number Six: Who are you?

Number Two: The new Number Two.

Number Six: Who is Number One?

Number Two: You are Number Six.

Number Six: I am not a number! I am a free man!

Zippy´s Sausage Factory
Black Helicopters

Things haven't evolved

"Things have evolved". I very much doubt that. This was, I believe, the game plan all along. It's only being done now because it's taken them this long to build the infrastructure for it. No point getting the great unwashed upset at their political masters before time, eh what? Not that it won't be too late to stop it already, of course...

This post has been deleted by its author

Captain Hogwash
Black Helicopters

Equipment interference

Beginning at O2?

Sir Runcible Spoon
Silver badge
Joke

Re: Equipment interference

Have they hacked oxygen now?

#define INFINITY -1

Re: Equipment interference

... pretty sure that happened in the 1940's and 1950's to all elements.

John Brown (no body)
Silver badge
Thumb Up

Re: Equipment interference

Not all.

Transuranic heavy elements may not be used where there is life. Medium atomic weights are available: Gold, Lead, Copper, Jet, Diamond, Radium, Sapphire, Silver and Steel. Sapphire and Steel have been assigned.

Sir Runcible Spoon
Silver badge
Thumb Up

Re: Sapphire & Steel

Thanks for reminding me, I have the whole set waiting for me to watch over the xmas break :D

Augie
Big Brother

1984 eat your tits off, soon enough bad thought crimes abound and interment camps for those who dare think beyond the government line..

Sir Runcible Spoon
Silver badge

1984 was just a draft, it has since 'evolved' many times.

IceC0ld
Bronze badge

1984 was just a draft, it has since 'evolved' many times.

1984 was supposed to be a bloody WARNING

NOT an instruction manual .................

starting to look a lot like The Minority Report :o(

Anonymous Coward
Anonymous Coward

This is probably trying to get legality for what they already have in place or do we believe that after Snowden all those companies just stopped working with intelligence agencies?

#define INFINITY -1

Have you not been reading these forums? If seemingly intelligent people take a party line (passed to them by news rags) on people who have undermined covert ops, thought-crimes 'are so yesterdaaay'.

JohnFen
Silver badge

Nobody actually believed them, right?

"During the passage of the Investigatory Powers legislation, he said, the government anticipated bulk EI warrants would be "the exception", and "be limited to overseas 'discovery' based EI operations"."

If you grant a body with a power, you can be absolutely certain that the power will be used to the fullest extent possible. If the limits of a granted power aren't part of the legislation granting the power, then those limits don't exist. What they say about "intention" is always meaningless.

fidodogbreath
Silver badge

Rigor

bulk EU would require "particularly rigorous and technically-informed oversight"

Spook: I need an EI warrant.

Overseer: Why?

Spook: I can't tell you, it's classified; but trust me.

Overseer: OK, then. <rubber-stamps application>

DCFusor
Silver badge

And people laugh at the US government

Yeah, I know, it just irks me that others seem to think theirs is any better because your clowns use slightly different makeup.

Anonymous Coward
Anonymous Coward

stupid terrorists!

will be caught!

Adrian 4
Silver badge

Re: stupid terrorists!

It's not the stupid ones that worry me.

Anonymous Coward
Anonymous Coward

Re: stupid terrorists!

survival of the fittest includes all kinds of people, why would terrorists be excluded?

...

therefore we need MORE powers to defeat them!!!! :/

BleedinObvious
Trollface

O2 national outage + GCHQ equipment interference announcement

= Coincidence?

Trollslayer
Silver badge
Flame

Is anyone surprised?

Didn't think so.

Adrian 4
Silver badge

incentive

Espionage is often described as an arms race. What does that mean for gchq ?

In WWII, it was mathematicians following orders vs. mathematicians trying to outwit johnny foreigner. Easy to see who's going to win there (and we have no information about how well johnny foreigner managed to penetrate our brave eggheads).

Currently, it's people being paid by the hour trying to outdo : terrorists whose lives / life missions depend on their methods, and enthusiasts (hackers, cryptogeeks, whatever you want to call them) who see it as a game.

The smart money's not on the government any more.

martinusher
Silver badge

Now we know why the Guvmint doesn't like Chinese kit

Official View: We're concerned about the Chinese spying on us so don't buy it

Reality: We can't figure out a way to screw with this kit to get us the information we want**

(** Because we've had to live with the "Chinese Spying" and "Backdoor" miasma for so long Chinese companies have had to demonstrate to all interested parties that their kit is clean in order to sell it. Its the same with Kaspersky's anti-virus -- we don't like it because we can't compromise it (and it keeps catching us out).)

Oengus
Silver badge

Re: Now we know why the Guvmint doesn't like Chinese kit

Official View: We're concerned about the Chinese spying on us so don't buy it

We're concerned that the Chinese kit will stop us from spying on our people so don't buy it FTFY

SNAFUology
Angel

No, Not us !

Seems they need another department to aid deniability how about AI4 to go with MI5 & MI6 !?

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