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UK space comes to an 'understanding' with Australia as Brexit looms

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It's not so much the shambles of the negotiations that is forcing us out of Galileo, it's our own insistence, when part of it, that non-EU countries should not be able to benefit from either the navigation system or the raw data from it. I'm sure the ASA would like to develop something, but with that level of funding it's hard to see them doing more than setting up a nice shiny office.

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Re: RE: Mooseman

"And May is a poor negotiator letting them get away with it."

Did you not understand what Mooseman wrote? That it was the UK - us - who insisted that non-EU countries should not have access to the encrypted data. Or do you not understand that Brexit means that the UK becomes a nonEU country?

Please enlighten us as to how you would negotiate us out of that one?

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Re: RE: Mooseman

Either let us stay in or give us our money back and buy us out

When you move out of a flat, does the landlord refund you all the money you gave to pay the rent?

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Re: RE: Mooseman

"When you move out of a flat, does the landlord refund you all the money you gave to pay the rent?"

Ah, more analogies. The EU is a collection of nations, it does not exist outside of its constituent countries. So if one of those nations leaves, the assets should be split according to the financial contribution. Indeed, it's more like a divorce than a landlord-tenant relationship. But, of course, both of these analogies are wrong. It is whatever the treaties and contracts say it is.

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Re: RE: Mooseman

May probably is a poor negotiator. But she's got a shit hand to play. That hand won't get any better if it's Boris holding the cards and threatening to flounce out unless he gets to have his cake and eat it. He'll get nothing except 27 boot prints on his fat arse and an economic blockade.

The Boris shitshow would last about a month before the UK starves, there will be mass protests, the pound will collapse and the UK would be begging the EU to let it back in.

Banging your fist on the table and talking tough is only going to work if the other side thinks you have the tools to actually carry through on your threats. Unfortunately nobody except the most deluded of brexit jingoists thinks the UK can last more than a few weeks of hard brexit before it's at the table begging for a single market / customs union deal. Would be far better to do it now, before the chaos, and before more Japanese and UK companies move operations permanently to mainland Europe.

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Meh

Re: RE: Mooseman

"When you move out of a flat, does the landlord refund you all the money you gave to pay the rent?"

Not a good comparison. You do get to keep your furniture when you leave, and you only pay rent up until the point you lived in the property, not for years after. A better comparison would be starting a business with friends and eventually cashing out - you get your share back at current value, unless you negotiate badly, but you are entitled to your fair share.

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Re: does the landlord refund you all the money you gave to pay the rent?

Within the limits of that analogy, wouldn't it be more like not being refunded for the new bathroom you fitted?

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Re: RE: Mooseman

Do you understand how contracts work? You sign up for something, you commit to it and you pay the money in. If you then decide to pull out you can't expect all sides to just give you back your money etc. Unless it is in the contract which doesn't look to be the case.

If you signed a contract for a car, agreed to pay a loan to the finance company for ownership and continued use of that car. Then decided you didn't want the car agreement and left, they won't pay you back what you put in. And you will lose the car because you still signed up to pay the money for it.

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Re: RE: Mooseman

@ NerryTutkins

"May probably is a poor negotiator. But she's got a shit hand to play"

I always wince when I hear we have a poor hand to play. Of the two sides we can get what we want unilaterally by just not participating in the project (aka leave). The EU is in a less envious position as they really dont want a net contributor to leave the fragile project. May is a poor negotiator but as she has been determined that she doesnt want to leave the EU it isnt a shock.

"The Boris shitshow would last about a month before the UK starves"

I would be amazed if we lasted that long under Boris.

"Banging your fist on the table and talking tough is only going to work if the other side thinks you have the tools to actually carry through on your threats"

This is a fair comment against May except its not the tools but the will that is lacking. But this also explains why leave is not swooning to change their minds, the EU threats followed by desperate begging to remain just look pathetic.

"Unfortunately nobody except the most deluded of brexit jingoists thinks the UK can last more than a few weeks of hard brexit before it's at the table begging for a single market / customs union deal."

I am not sure how you bring jingoists to this, there were plenty in remain as well as some in leave. But why would we be begging in a few weeks, even the dire predictions of Carney and Osborne have to predict 30 years ahead to pretend there is a downside. Reports on hard brexit assuming we must apply either the highest tariffs or what we do while in the EU are deluded but as that would be self sabotage (think Osborne's punishment budget level of stupidity) why would we do that?

"Would be far better to do it now, before the chaos"

Too late. The EU is in multiple self inflicted crises, the chaos is already there. Everything is going to be the end of the EU and Eurozone according to its presidents and leaders of member countries. They are finally talking of reforming the EU after all this time because it has finally penetrated their little bubble that the project is in a dire state. Cant blame the UK for wanting some distance from that wreck.

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Re: RE: Mooseman

She has an impossible hand. She is literally trying to ensure free movement of people and goods across the Irish border while, at the same time, restricting the movement of people and goods across the border.

I would almost feel sorry for her if she wasn't the one continuing to maintain that there's a solution.

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Re: does the landlord refund you all the money you gave to pay the rent?

Within the limits of that analogy, wouldn't it be more like not being refunded for the new bathroom you fitted?

In the UK, a tenant doesn't get any recognition for improvements to a house or flat. Though a tenant might get charged for any alterations. And improving a place means means it's worth more, so expect the rent to rise. Even if you have a landlord who would naturally play fair, they'll have to have the strength to stand up to the agent who recommends the higher rent for the improvements.

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Re: Tigra 07

The UK contributed to Galileo and as a result negotiated and received a share of the pork for R&D. Part of the contract we insisted on was that only EU members are allowed big lumps of Galileo pork. Until recently, Brits have done an excellent job of getting an unfair share of EU pork so most of the ~£350M/week came back.

Although I firmly believe our government lack the skills to negotiate their way out of a wet paper bag I do not blame them that much for this particular cock-up. Everyone in the UK is now is a lousy position to tender for long term EU projects and our share of the pork has already fallen.

Article 50 has always been particularly clear: any EU member that leaves gets fucked over by all the others on the way out. If any Brexit voter is any happy about this they can go to the bathroom, look in the mirror and rant at one of the people responsible.

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Re: RE: Mooseman

"I always wince when I hear we have a poor hand to play."

So do I for the simple reason we have no hand. On the most minuscule of majorities on an advisory referendum HMG has decided unconditionally that we leave. No feasibility study. No planning (you may remember that a citizen had to go to court* to even get them to realise that they needed Parliamentary consent). That, as far as I can see, amounts not no hand.

*Sadly mistimed. If she'd held her hand until now it could have thrown a real spanner in the works to discover that the invocation of Article 50 didn't meet the constitutional requirement.

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Re: RE: Mooseman

"The EU is in multiple self inflicted crises, the chaos is already there. Everything is going to be the end of the EU and Eurozone according to its presidents and leaders of member countries."

Project Fear.

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Re: RE: Mooseman

Either let us stay in or give us our money back and buy us out

When you move out of a flat, does the landlord refund you all the money you gave to pay the rent?

It's like some in the UK expect a credit note on the amount you contributed to paying off the mortgage the landlord used to buy the place in the first place.

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Re: RE: Mooseman

Too late. The EU is in multiple self inflicted crises, the chaos is already there. Everything is going to be the end of the EU and Eurozone according to its presidents and leaders of member countries. They are finally talking of reforming the EU after all this time because it has finally penetrated their little bubble that the project is in a dire state. Cant blame the UK for wanting some distance from that wreck.

You suffer from the same problem as the UK's political class... just because you say it is so, it doesn't make it true.

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Re: RE: Mooseman

The EU is in a less envious position as they really dont want a net contributor to leave the fragile project.

I think the UK has been pretty well written off by the EU at this point.

But neither can the Union, if it wants to retain it's current form, allow any special deal with an ex-member (we've gotten special deals before, but that was before the whole leave decision).

To do so, would set the worst sort of precedent, and definitely kick off the break-up of the Union. With all countries uncomfortable about one part or another wishing to back out of different bits.

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Re: Tigra 07

"Brits have done an excellent job of getting an unfair share of EU pork so most of the ~£350M/week came back."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40860657

We are a net contributor to the EU budget. Plus, the majority of what we get back is agricultural subsidies and regional aid, neither things that the EU does very well.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: RE: Mooseman

Now imagine if someone decided to 'warn' the finance company to deal with the fact that they were about to stop paying for the car - and to insist they show them 'respect' for doing so.

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Re: RE: Mooseman

@ Doctor Syntax

"So do I for the simple reason we have no hand."

Wow. So my reasoned comment explaining how we have a great hand and pointing out the difference in position has been responded to with the none answer of 'we have no hand'. Sorry but reason and explanation is worth more than repeating rubbish.

"On the most minuscule of majorities on an advisory referendum HMG has decided unconditionally that we leave"

2 general elections and 1 referendum to have the vote, get the result and confirm the result. Which for some reason but a minority somehow things that should be undemocratically overthrown because they dont like it. Erm, no.

"No feasibility study. No planning"

Both are actions of the government. Now why would the government not do that? Say for example Cameron considering leave as a possibility when he offered the choice? Or May who handed over art50 in her own time? How are your Scotsmen doing?

"That, as far as I can see, amounts not no hand."

So your argument that we have no hand is because we have remainers in government trying desperately to remain in the EU which we the people have with certainty voted out of. Funny I think you might just be describing why leave voters are not so impressed!

"Project Fear."

From within the EU by the very supporters of the EU about the EU! You should warn me of the mental gymnastics required to reach your conclusions. I have to limber up.

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Scrap value

Galileo should never have been created in the first place: There are two faults with GPS (coverage for accuracy, US right to switch it off or encrypt it).. which could have been addressed with funding contribution and contract.

Space is outside of the realm of Earth laws.. if the UK is locked out through decision to leave the EU, a price can be negotiated on the scrap value.. It is a question of the inconvenience price for recovering them

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Re: RE: Mooseman

@ Dan 55

"just because you say it is so, it doesn't make it true."

I am not sure which part you dont believe? Is it the EU in multiple self inflicted crises? Repeated claims that it will be the end of the project by those in the project (and support the project)? Or that they have finally come around to the idea of reform (I can understand your disbelief at this)?

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Re: RE: Mooseman

@ Teiwaz

"I think the UK has been pretty well written off by the EU at this point."

Good I hope so. Not in any harsh or bad way but the fact that we voted leave and hopefully we will do so. It makes sense for the EU to prepare and that is a good thing.

"But neither can the Union, if it wants to retain it's current form, allow any special deal with an ex-member"

I have no problem with that. Hard brexit is the only certainty we have but we should be able to make a mutually beneficial trade deal which shouldnt even be difficult.

I must say I found nothing objectionable in your comment. The EU needs to look after the EU and the UK the UK. A mutual deal could easily be beneficial to both sides but the approach of both sides has been unimpressive.

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Re: RE: Mooseman

"On the most minuscule of majorities on an advisory referendum HMG has decided unconditionally that we leave"

A simple majority where 1.2m more people voted to leave than to stay, hardly "miniscule". It's called the democratic will of the people. You might not like it. I might not like it. But ignoring it would not have been an option for whichever government was in place at the time.

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Re: RE: Mooseman

"Of the two sides we can get what we want unilaterally by just not participating in the project (aka leave). "

And this is going to achieve the frictionless trade that UK factories and farms need for their survival, not to mention to avoid the UK starving?

Don't tell me, Donald "Rip up the WTO" Trump is going to do you a good deal? The only good deal he's going to do you is if you sleep with him then threaten to go to the papers.

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Re: RE: Mooseman

It's amazing how they argue that with computers and technology they can make the Irish border completely seamless and invisible such that it's virtually non-existent and definitely not carving Ireland in two.

And yet, when it is suggested that this completely and invisible border be moved to the middle of open sea, suddenly it becomes an impenetrable obstacle that is ripping the UK apart.

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Re: RE: Mooseman

Galileo uses British technologies with a licence attached to our participation, if they kick us out then those licences are invalid. They can either shut down all existing satellites or renegotiate a new licence for those technologies. Should they refuse to do either then the UK would be well within it's right to shoot down those illegal satellites.

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Re: RE: Mooseman

"On the most minuscule of majorities on an advisory referendum HMG has decided unconditionally that we leave"

A simple majority where 1.2m more people voted to leave than to stay, hardly "miniscule". It's called the democratic will of the people. You might not like it. I might not like it. But ignoring it would not have been an option for whichever government was in place at the time.

The Referendum was never billed as an Ultimate decision, merely an advisory. I have my suspicions a fair few votes were so called protest votes, and not on the actual question, which was vague.

There was never any mention of leaving the ECHR, and might even have been mention that leave did not include this, yet it got included after the fact.

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Re: RE: Mooseman

@ NerryTutkins

"And this is going to achieve the frictionless trade that UK factories and farms need for their survival, not to mention to avoid the UK starving?"

Thats a great project fear effort but fails in the fact that we cant provide enough home grown food to feed our population already. The food bill should go down (for everyone rich or poor in the UK) by leaving as we dont need to apply the high tariffs of the EU against the world. You talk of frictionless trade but I assume you mean only with the EU?

"Don't tell me, Donald "Rip up the WTO" Trump is going to do you a good deal? The only good deal he's going to do you is if you sleep with him then threaten to go to the papers."

He did seem to take the wind out of the EU's sails. Amusingly Junker actually publicly acknowledged that increasing tariffs is bad for the people in the country applying import tariffs, but then the EU did it anyway. By leaving we will be able to drop the EU high tariffs even Junker recognises as a good idea.

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Re: RE: Mooseman

I'm actually getting quite tired of explaining to "Hard Brexiters" that the referendum was not a vote on "Stay in the EU or Crash Out". Just because Boris wants to screw the country and leave with No Deal does not mean the majority of the country want that. Nowhere on the ballot paper did it say "I vote for No Deal", and this is exactly what a second referendum should be about. You just have to look at what people were actually voting for to see that Hard Brexit should quite rightly be ignored, we need a deal and the likes of Farage and Boris with their rabid ramblings and self interest should be tried for treason for undermining the political process.

Why did people vote for Brexit?

1. £350M a week for the NHS. Except there never was £350M a week.

2. The Brexit Dividend. Except that you have to increase GDP to offset the cost of trade to the EU. So in effect there is no Brexit Dividend.

3. Uncontrolled immigration. Except we were always allowed to send EU migrants back to their home countries if they couldn't find work within 3 months. For some reason a lot of people confused EU immigration with non-EU immigration which we always had control over. And why were they coming here in the first place? To do jobs we didn't have the skills for or that British citizens won't do.

4. The unelected EU Parliament. You know the one, that we vote EU MPs for, like Farage, who then gets to vote on EU laws. Like the UK Parliament, with elected representatives. And we wonder why Scotland hates Westminster so much...

5. We can negotiate a new trade deal, like Norway has. This was made so much of during the referendum, it probably swung more votes than anything else, the idea that people could vote to Leave and have a Soft Brexit. It's also likely why the people who didn't vote didn't vote, stay or we get a Soft Brexit. If you don't care either way what's the point in voting?

The referendum should always have been more than just In or Out. There are so many shades of Out that rabidly stating "but I voted Leave and that means Leave" is meaningless. All it shows is that you're ignorant of everything the referendum was about and trying to hold onto your Little Britain mindset. "We were fine outside the EU". Really? I grew up in the 70's, I remember rolling blackouts, winter of discontent, cap in hand to the IMF, inflation, high interest rates. That's the whole reason we joined the EU in the first place.

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Re: RE: Mooseman

The EU needs to look after the EU and the UK the UK

I don't believe a Hard Brexit is looking out for the UK.

England, maybe, but the UK, no.

Likelihood of it upsetting the Irish border is great, and it'll increase the chances of Scotland opting for Independence.

The Welsh weren't on same page with the vote mostly either

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Anonymous Coward

Re: RE: Mooseman

Trump is going to do you a good deal? The only good deal he's going to do you is if you sleep with him then threaten to go to the papers.

Are you offering?

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Re: RE: Mooseman

The Referendum was never billed as an Ultimate decision, merely an advisory.

What is the point in having a referendum if you're then going to ignore the result? That would be both undemocratic and a waste of taxpayers' money If all you want is advice, you run an opinion poll, not a referendum.

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Re: RE: Mooseman

@ Teiwaz

"I don't believe a Hard Brexit is looking out for the UK."

Thats ok. Everyone has their own opinions and that is to be expected. And so we hold a vote to democratically determine the direction to go (2 actually in this case) and so with our varied opinions we voted to remain or leave, and the result was leave. That doesnt mean you have to suddenly believe it will be good for the UK but it does mean you hold the minority opinion and you are not considered better than everyone else (1 vote each).

"Likelihood of it upsetting the Irish border is great, and it'll increase the chances of Scotland opting for Independence."

Ok. So? The UK can unilaterally decide not to enforce a border or implement our side as we wish. The EU has the same freedom their side. Preferably to both sides of Ireland and the UK there would be no border or some low interference border, but the EU wont agree to that.

If Scotland want another vote for independence (not looking popular any more) then fine. Except last time they didnt want independence they wanted more devolution with the UK picking up the tab. Also it would be very unhelpful to have such a referendum on the basis of joining the EU as Scotland really does not qualify.

"The Welsh weren't on same page with the vote mostly either"

Again so what? The Welsh are also not counted as more than anyone else. That is why we have a 1 vote each system where we are equal.

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Re: RE: Mooseman

"I grew up in the 70's, I remember rolling blackouts, winter of discontent, cap in hand to the IMF, inflation, high interest rates. That's the whole reason we joined the EU in the first place."

I remember them too - they occurred during the mid- to late 1970's.

After we joined the EEC.

So not 'why we joined the EU in the first place'. (Plus of course, we joined the EU when it formed in 1992, by which time the economic problems of the 1970's UK were long passed).

If there is a link between those economic problems and the EU (which I don't actual think there is) it would prove that joining EEC (/EC/EU) was detrimental to the UK economy. Which in some respects it was, and in other respects it was beneficial.

I have no objection to remain supporters pointing out the lies told by the Brexiteer, but if they do, they should make a modicum of effort to tell the truth themselves, less they be labelled hypocrites.

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Re: Rupert Fiennes

Thanks for the link. If you read the report you will notice that the net contribution is calculated as (Money to the EU)-(Money back to the UK government). It misses out money back to the UK private sector (which exceeds money back to the UK government).

It also misses out EU citizens working over here and paying UK taxes. A big thank you to my Dutch NHS GP and all the Polish bus drivers (and their very welcome tobacco tax).

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Anonymous Coward

Re: RE: Mooseman

a lot of leavers DON'T seem to grasp this fact. I'm fed up with the oh we should tell them to feck of brigade and the they need us more than we need them, errrrmmmmmm really. They sell us more than we sell them, etc, etc. There's 27 other countries you don't really want to pi$$ any of them off!

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Re: RE: Mooseman

I'm actually getting quite tired of explaining to "Hard Brexiters" that the referendum was not a vote on "Stay in the EU or Crash Out".

I can see why that would be hard, given that the text of the question was just that:

"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

Nowhere on the ballot paper did it say "I vote for No Deal", and this is exactly what a second referendum should be about.

And what if that second referendum decides to reject "No Deal" by 51%? What then, a third referendum on "Canada or Norway"? Or on "Change our mind again or not?" And what if the vote were 51% to "not leave after all", do you think everyone would say "Oh goody, that's the right result, we can all stop worrying"? Of course not, there would just be calls for another referendum next year in case we changed our minds again.

We've had the referendum, we've had an election, both indicated a desire to leave, so we leave. It's the only democratic choice. Maybe in 20 years time the next generation might decide to rejoin, presuming there's an EU to join, which I personally doubt given the way Italy & other countries are going.

I grew up in the 70's, I remember rolling blackouts, winter of discontent, cap in hand to the IMF, inflation, high interest rates. That's the whole reason we joined the EU in the first place.

FFS NO, that's the reason we joined the Common Market, which was an economic partnership that mostly worked, and where things should have stayed. Turning it into the political entity of the EU happened with the Maastricht treaty, which John Major signed us up to without a referendum, because he know from the opinion polls would have been rejected by around 60% of people in the UK. The Danes rejected it, even the europhile French barely accepted it (51%, a smaller majority than voted Leave in Brexit, yet remainers don't deny the validity of that result).

The centralized political and monetary control of the EU is unnecessary, unwanted, and making Europe dangerously unstable by driving people into the arms of the extremists, but as usual short-sighted politicians are too busy empire-building to see the grassroots danger.

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Re: RE: Mooseman

"You sign up for something, you commit to it and you pay the money in."

Absolutely agree that we should continue paying for things we've contractually signed up to.

Although its amazing how quick people don't want to give us the dividends on the things we've paid for...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: RE: Mooseman

There's 27 other countries you don't really want to pi$$ any of them off!

Such a narrow view. There are over 180 other countries, but only 27 of them are in the EU.

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Re: RE: Mooseman

"When you move out of a flat, does the landlord refund you all the money you gave to pay the rent?"

Bad analogy, its more like getting a divorce and your wife/husband keeping everything, even though you both paid into the mortgage.

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Re: RE: Mooseman

@EvilDrSmith the fact is Hard Brexiters see the UK pre-EU as being some golden age. When in fact the UK was seen as the sick man of Europe. To see the UK as some Great Britain of old, when we were an economic powerhouse capable of dictating to the world we'd first have to regain control over half the world's resources and reinstate the British Empire. The days of the Commonwealth are over, they'll never be reinstated and no amount of bluster from Boris will ever change that fact.

Today our economy is inextricably linked to the EU. Hard Brexit and trade on WTO terms means an end to free trade with the EU. That means everything we sell to the EU can have a tariff on it. That makes everything we sell to the EU more expensive to buy in the EU. That means businesses will lose trade or have to move. That is the reality of Hard Brexit. Lost jobs.

Mass emigration also has another unintended consequence. A country's economy is measured by GDP. A driver for GDP is population. If you suddenly remove people from the country, it has a negative effect on GDP. Or to put it in terms that the non-economist can understand, recession. These are effects that won't be felt in 30 years as some claim, but within the lifetime of this and the next Parliament. Whoever picks up this mess after the next election picks up a poisoned chalice. The only good news for me is that so long as I remain employed, the company I work for sells quite a lot to the EU, I should be able to buy a house quite cheaply as one key driver for housing costs has been the pressure from immigration.

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Re: RE: Mooseman @codejunky

"I always wince when I hear we have a poor hand to play. "

That would be the grim realisation that your beloved Brexit is a monumental gangfuck.

Politics aside we sit in the most sophisticated and powerful trade bloc on the planet which is leading the convergance paths of the other trade blocs to make trade simpler and remove frictions and barriers.

And the UK response because a minority of shouty xenophobes don't like 'forrin' accents and also fancy making a fast buck on a crashing pound is to bin it all and strike out alone like the Crimson Permanent Assurance.

If you want a free trade deal we can join EFTA (the clue is in the FTA bit!) and if we want to remove frictions to trade and enjoy other global deals we can form a customs union. Then its only about trade rules, you can meet the binary referendum and stop a few pointy heads making a killing.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: RE: Mooseman

"There was never any mention of leaving the ECHR, and might even have been mention that leave did not include this, yet it got included after the fact."

I do hope we never leave the ECHR, we helped set it up, to leave would be proof of the erosion of human rights in the UK.

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Re: RE: Mooseman

@Phil O'Sophical that's why a second referendum should not be just In/Out. It should be on the deal itself.

And it should be truly reflective, with a transferable vote so we don't have the ridiculous reality that a Minority of the population can hold the Majority of the vote. Select first and second preference, In/Out No deal/Out with deal. Effectively EU/EEA/WTO and you make it explicitly clear that it's a binding vote. Not an advisory one that somehow is treated as law without any further discussion of what it actually is everyone was voting for.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: RE: Mooseman

May might (sorry!) be a poor negotiator, but given that her main negotiator for a good deal has been Borris-No-Deal, this would indicate she had poor judgement of choosing the best negotiator in the first place. Or, terrible thought, Boris-No-Deal was still the least worst negotiator she could have found...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: RE: Mooseman

>Such a narrow view. There are over 180 other countries, but only 27 of them are in the EU.

Technically, 193 in the United Nations plus a handful not in the UN, so call it 200. Of those, we've fought wars, conquered or had territorial disputes with pretty much all of them at some point in the past.

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Re: RE: Mooseman

@ Alien8n

"fact is Hard Brexiters see the UK pre-EU as being some golden age"

No I dont. And I am not convinced all the others hold such an opinion. I notice you use the loose definition of the EU as before the political entity but still, no. It is perfectly reasonable to believe that we would be better off outside the EU in future without it being backward. Unless of course it is backward to believe we should be in the EU modelled on the cold war era.

"Today our economy is inextricably linked to the EU"

Which can legitimately be seen as a huge threat as the EU is in multiple self inflicted crises and the leaders and supporters of it keep commenting on its impending breakup.

"That is the reality of Hard Brexit. Lost jobs."

The opportunity cost of being in the EU also applies as lost jobs.

"A driver for GDP is population."

The driver of GDP is productivity. Increased labour can increase productivity but it is only one factor and of course comes with the responsibilities and costs of immigration.

"If you suddenly remove people from the country"

Who is doing that? I hear remainers repeating pulling up the drawbridge and such but brexiters seem to be more outward looking to the world.

"as one key driver for housing costs has been the pressure from immigration."

Which has been pushed as a problem by a number of governments. In fact your claim that it is immigration causing upward pressure on housing costs has been one of the leave arguments. An alternative would be to build more but that would be cutting regulation which is a hard sell even if its the right thing to do.

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m-k

Re: RE: Banging your fist on the table and talking tough

remember the cousin's advice:

"speak softly and carry a big stick

Unfortunately, in this case, it's the EU side that's been implementing this policy (because they can). And it has been painful to watch UK's puffing and huffing when both sides know _exactly_ there's no ace up UK's sleeve. No ace, no stick, nothing. Other than the gentlemanly message from the highest echelons of British establishment: FUCK YOU, WE'RE NOT PAYIN' THAT BILL! And you're no better than Soviets anyway, so yes, fuck you!

But... no stick, so it's easy to guess what the EU side says quietly to that.

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