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'Men only' job ad posts land Facebook in boiling hot water with ACLU

Anonymous Coward
Anonymous Coward

Didn't ElReg just have a story about women-only coding camp?

How is a men-only job ad any different than a women-only event of similar nature?

One gets them a job immediately & the other trains them to get one eventually.

How are they different in the eyes of the ACLU & other SJWs?

Joe W

Re: Didn't ElReg just have a story about women-only coding camp?

Yes and no. It would be similar to a men only nursing or childcare course. It is a course, not a job, and I would have enjoyed having some courses without girls.

On the other hand, there are a number of scholarships that are open only to women, and this I find a bit more difficult. Yes, you want to have more women in academia in science. This is however much too late. When young girls always get told they don't have to be good in maths because they are girls - quite often by their moms - then it is no wonder they don't study physics etc.

Another thing I saw: most of my female fellow students left after their MSc for high paying industry jobs. That's more intelligent than continuing in science.

bobajob12
Bronze badge

Re: Didn't ElReg just have a story about women-only coding camp?

If the point behind your anonymous comment is that the ACLU only ever take on cases that reflect some left-wing bias of theirs, I can assure you that they don't.

For example, right now they just filed suit in support of the NRA against the state of New York.(link). They came out in support of the white nationalists' right to protest in Charlottesville (link). Those are just two recent examples. If you want to go further back in time, they even defended Col. Oliver North in the Iran-Contra scandal. (link)

So, less of the cheap shots, eh?

bombastic bob
Silver badge
Unhappy

Re: Didn't ElReg just have a story about women-only coding camp?

"How are they different in the eyes of the ACLU & other SJWs?"

trying to reconcile this obvious hypocrisy might cause you to eat your own brain...

/me prepares you a rubber room. you're welcome.

This post has been deleted by a moderator

RyokuMas
Silver badge
Coat

Re: Didn't ElReg just have a story about women-only coding camp?

"... me remembers high school.

Judging by this style of writing, that would be about two years ago?

Mycho
Silver badge

Re: Didn't ElReg just have a story about women-only coding camp?

Back to the point, El Reg has indeed attacked women-only job emails before.

Anonymous Coward
Anonymous Coward

Equality in advertising

So you can now sue because someone *doesn't* show adverts to you?

Oh well, this will put all the advertisers and their ABC123 market segregation to bed.

Choosing where to display a Porsche advert? Decide it's not worth paying to display it on a board in a council estate? That's discrimination that is.

Rich 11
Silver badge

Re: Equality in advertising

That's discrimination that is.

People's wealth is something which can and does change. You could win the lottery one day and be bankrupt the next. Some of these circumstances might be beyond your control, or things you never experience, but most are something you have a say over (you don't have to buy a lottery ticket, you can manage your money wisely).

What people are born with doesn't change (race, sexuality, gender dysphoria, etc) and is something they have to live with through no fault of their own.

Societal discrimination affecting one of these two categories is patently unfair. Can you work out why?

jmch
Silver badge

Re: Didn't ElReg just have a story about women-only coding camp?

"How is a men-only job ad any different than a women-only event of similar nature?"

a) Because a job ad is different from a coding camp

b) because if it's simply one job ad, the applicant can apply for any one of hundreds of other jobs, but if Facebook is allowing the automation of thousands of job ads, potentially every job with a given company or sector, then the applicant cannot apply for any jobs.

Incidentally in many parts of Europe, the title of every single job add is followed by (m/f) in brackets (or the equivalents abbreviations of male/female in whatever language is being used). I'm not sure if that is through practice or law

Anonymous Coward
Anonymous Coward

Re: Didn't ElReg just have a story about women-only coding camp?

You could advertise your IT job in Computer Weekly.

But suppose it turns out that 90% of the readership of Computer Weekly is male?

anonanonanon

Re: Didn't ElReg just have a story about women-only coding camp?

Coz there are already defacto male only events/posts, they may not be advertised as male only, but because discrimination is a real thing, they turn out that way. If discrimination wasn't a huge issue, you'd have a point, but as it is, you don't.

Do you see women only job postings you'd apply for in fields you don't think you'd get a job in otherwise unless there were men only postings?

Basler

Re: Didn't ElReg just have a story about women-only coding camp?

"Judging by this style of writing, that would be about two years ago?"

I'd peg him as old (well, as old as me). "/me" is an IRC thing. Do kids still use that these days?

Prst. V.Jeltz
Silver badge

Re: Equality in advertising

So you can now sue because someone *doesn't* show adverts to you?

Nail . Head . Best comment.

You cant show all the adverts to all the people all the time , and I wouldnt like it if they did!

Can women sue because they didnt see the "Become a royal Navy Engineer" advert shown during Scrapyard Challenge because they were busy watching Love Island?

disgustedoftunbridgewells
Silver badge

Re: Equality in advertising

I suppose you could argue that the Royal Navy knew men would watch Scrapyard Challenge and women wouldn't.

For some reason they don't advertise tampons at half time in football matches. It's discrimination I tell you!

israel_hands

Re: Equality in advertising

Nail . Head . Best comment.

Only if you're a tool. Let me use your own example to make it clear what's happening and why it's wrong.

If a woman has an interest in mechanical engineering and such she may well then be a Scrapheap Challenge viewer. If so then she'll see the Royal Navy ad and might be interested in joining up.

The issue here is that Facebook are removing her ability to see the ad, no matter what her personal interests are, simply because she possesses a vagina. That's fucking stupid.

The equivalent would be that during the ad break in Scrapheap Challenge her TV detected the fact she is of the vagina'd half of the population and replaced the Navy ad with one for makeup or shoes or something vagina-bearers are supposed to be interested in.

Associating ads with things that people are likely to be interested in isn't a problem. It's when you remove someone's choice for following their up their interest based on something as daft and arbitrary as which set of genitalia they possess.

jmch
Silver badge

Re: Didn't ElReg just have a story about women-only coding camp?

"You could advertise your IT job in Computer Weekly."

Yes you could, but you couldn't then ask Computer Weekly to snip your ad out of any copies that are bought by women, could you? (and even if you could, why would you?)

Likewise it makes perfect sense to advertise a computer-related job on a computer-related Facebook group, and if membership of that group was 90% male, then that would not be a problem, since any interested women could join the group*. But you shouldn't hide the ad from only art of the group based on gender.

*putting aside the further issue of private closed groups for a moment

disgustedoftunbridgewells
Silver badge

Re: Equality in advertising

I'm torn between agreeing with you and thinking that you are a tool.

overunder

Re: Equality in advertising

I think it depends on the job. As far as Uber goes, I believe they choose younger males because at any given point in time in history, they seem to be the least intelligent, or at be least the less focused (making them manipulatable). Ultimately, Uber might be guilty of more discriminations than are let on here. Uber... Guilty.

As far as the bigger picture alluded here, I'm not sure where in nature or even human science where multiple physically different things are supposed to be equal in all aspects. Apparently in today's supposedly evolved society, a duck equals a car which equals a book, or 1 === 2 === X evaluates to true. But, I admit my bias. For example the "LGBT" movement to me was just the "LGB" (sorry, the "T" I simply can't recognize based on the fundamentals of science).

Whatever, bring on the end. Uber is guilty, again.

MJB7

Re: (m/f) in job ads

Certainly in Germany, this is because discrimination is outlawed, but the grammar is such that job titles are different for men and women. A male programmer is "ein Programmierer", a female programmer is "eine Programmiererin" (you can occasionally still see that in English: "an actor" vs "an actress"). This applies to *all* job titles. That means you can either advertise for "ein(e) Programmierer/Programmiererin" or "ein Programmierer (m/w)" - and most choose the latter.

I expect the same applies to most European languages.

kain preacher
Silver badge

Re: Didn't ElReg just have a story about women-only coding camp?

Ahem Bob, can I call you bob ? You know that the ACLU has defend Klans men. They support all free speech not just whats socially popular .

rcxb

Re: Equality in advertising

- "What people are born with doesn't change (race, sexuality, gender dysphoria, etc) and is something they have to live with through no fault of their own."

So you're saying you fully support age discrimination?

katrinab
Silver badge

Re: Didn't ElReg just have a story about women-only coding camp?

That’s fine because women are allowed to read Computer Weekly, and it is not a men’s magazine, or a magazine targeted at men’s issues.

However, if you advertised it on the Computer Weekly website and and they agreed to only show the ad to men, that would be discrimination.

goldcd

Re: Equality in advertising

I agree with you logic - but this isn't "not accepting people for the job" - this is merely choosing where to place the advert.

This would be like banning recruitment drives from a single-sex school or college.

veti
Silver badge

Re: Equality in advertising

To me the solution is so simple, I wonder what is the obvious thing I'm missing:

Let advertisers aim their ads at whoever they like. But also make all ads available to anyone who requests them, filtered only by such terms as the viewer specifies.

Then any woman using Facebook would easily be able to get a list of ads for job type XY, even if the advertisers themselves ticked "men only".

eldakka
Silver badge
Unhappy

Re: Equality in advertising

The equivalent would be that during the ad break in Scrapheap Challenge her TV detected the fact she is of the vagina'd half of the population and replaced the Navy ad with one for makeup or shoes or something vagina-bearers are supposed to be interested in.

With always-connected smart-TVs with embedded cameras, like for example where MS tried (and failed) to make an always-online kinect-enabled XBox One compulsory, I fear this is where we are headed.

Anonymous Coward
Anonymous Coward

Re: Didn't ElReg just have a story about women-only coding camp?

"It would be similar to a men only nursing or childcare course". Good luck trying to fly that one past the SJWs

CrazyOldCatMan
Silver badge

Re: (m/f) in job ads

I expect the same applies to most European languages

One of the few examples of sanity in English - we got rid of (most of) the gendered nouns.. (and have available the perfectly adequate "their" as an ungendered possessive - you rreally, really don't have to put "his/her"..)

Sadly, we also appear to be losing the ability to conjugate past tenses - one website I was reading this morning (a US website) kept using "binded" instead of the perfectly adequate "bound".

Alan Hope

Re: Equality in advertising

Curiously, nowadays and increasingly commonly, gender does change.

J.G.Harston
Silver badge

Re: "Become a royal Navy Engineer" advert

Well somebody should sue, as they advetise the opportunity to become a technician, not an engineer.

FrozenShamrock

Re: Equality in advertising

It is illegal to discriminate in employment in the US. If they posted a job in the local paper and said "females, blacks, Jews, and other riff raff need not apply" they would be in clear violation of the laws. By only allowing their preferred group to even see the job ad they are accomplishing the same discriminatory end. The "wrong" type of people cannot see the ad so they cannot apply so they cannot compete equally for the job. The Employment Laws are concerned with the end results, not how sneaky you can be getting there.

FrozenShamrock

Re: Equality in advertising

But, females COULD watch the show which is the difference.

As far as the inane comment about Porsche ads in a council estate, it has nothing to do with this debate. If the Porsche dealer refused to sell to someone from a council estate who could buy the car that would be wrong; but, choosing where to advertise a car is different than choosing to only allow certain types of people know there is a job opening. You want a car, you know where the car dealers are, just go there with enough money and/or credit and they will sell you a car. If you don't know which company has an opening or for what you cannot apply.

JulieM
Bronze badge
Boffin

Re: Didn't ElReg just have a story about women-only coding camp?

The post has been deleted now, but the "/me does something" usage dates all the way back to IRC; if I typed it, and my nick was set to "JulieM", it would display on other users' screens as "JulieM does something". And I remember using IRC in the early 1990s, from a PC running a Telnet client accessing a Unix system.

IRC lost popularity in the late 1990s / early 2000s to a bunch of deliberately-incompatible, proprietary messaging applications. But Slack is actually using IRC underneath .....

Mycho
Silver badge

Re: Didn't ElReg just have a story about women-only coding camp?

Quite a few in-game chats also seem to use irc. Try seeing what happens if you use /me some time.

Anonymous Coward
Anonymous Coward

Facebook - "Is this a Trick?"

They're all gunning for Zuk now... The lies and the dismissal of privacy concerns and other criticisms for years... Its all coming home now. Interesting deeper background on Zuckerberg himself, and how he can't fix any of the problems, as all he knows is growth at any cost:

_______________________

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-09-18/mark-zuckerberg-profile-reveals-origins-of-facebook-fb-problems

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/09/17/can-mark-zuckerberg-fix-facebook-before-it-breaks-democracy

_______________________

"Four categories of Facebook harms: “on democracy, on public health with issues like addiction, on privacy, and on innovation because of its enormous market power.”

_______________________

"For a long time, Silicon Valley enjoyed an unencumbered embrace in America and now everyone says, Is this a trick? - Engineering ideology of FB was clear: “Scaling and growth are everything, individuals and their experiences are secondary to what is necessary to maximize the system - “connecting people,” that was, in effect, code for user growth - We believe in the religion of growth - FB had given away data before it had a system to check for abuse. - Do you really want to see what you’ll find? - What are the dark patterns that I can use to get people to log back in? - FB engineers became a new breed of behaviorists, tweaking levers of vanity and passion and susceptibility - FB engineers discovered that people find it nearly impossible not to log in after receiving an e-mail saying that someone has uploaded a picture of them. - containing the damage - a level of near-sovereignty “so powerful that the ordinary social and industrial forces existing are insufficient to cope with it.” - Senator, we run ads - It’s your data, but you give us a royalty-free global license to do, basically, whatever we want.” - Imagine, if a brick-and-mortar business asked to copy all your photographs for its unlimited, unspecified uses. “Your children, from the very first day until the confirmation, the rehearsal dinner for the wedding, the wedding itself, the first child being baptized. You would never accept that,” - “But this is what you accept without a blink of an eye when it’s digital.”

Anonymous Coward
Anonymous Coward

In the current environment, women are too much of a business risk..

Given that women

* Work less hours on average

* Get sick more often

* Take more leave days overall

* Are the overwhelming majority of sexual harassment complainants

* In manual labour jobs, get injured more seriously, more often

* Are the majority of OHS complainants

* Are more likely to leave after having kids, and never come back.

etc etc

Why WOULD you hire them?

The ugly truth is that if you are running a small / medium business, even hiring one woman can completely sink your business, as they lodge any sort of sexual harassment claim, even if it's proven to be 100% false and malicious can set your business back anywhere from $50-$150K, just to resolve it.

Training them for a role has an equally risky ROI, where they may decide to have kids and never come back.

My sister did exactly this. Fought tooth an nail to get into an extremely specialised field, studied to get a PHD over 5 years, went into the work force for 2 years, had a kid, decided she liked being a stay at home mum better, had a second kid, waited for her husband to pay off her student debts, then divorced him and took most of his stuff, and hasn't worked since.

She literally spent more time in school, than she did working and is now a net drain on the taxpayer and the poor guy she married.

Needless to say I don't speak to my sister, cos she is a monster.

This post has been deleted by a moderator

Allan George Dyer
Silver badge

Re: In the current environment, women are too much of a business risk..

@AC - "Given that women

* Work less hours on average

* Get sick more often

* Take more leave days overall

* Are the overwhelming majority of sexual harassment complainants

* In manual labour jobs, get injured more seriously, more often

* Are the majority of OHS complainants

* Are more likely to leave after having kids, and never come back.

etc etc

Why WOULD you hire them?"

Even if your claims are true, it doesn't mean that a woman's productivity is any worse than a man's. If they work fewer hours, they get paid for fewer hours, and might be producing more because of less fatigue. Someone who complains about OHS might be reducing your overall injury rate and associated costs compared to people who put up with a dangerous situation. And leaving to have kids sounds like a positive advantage to employers who want to fire their expensive, experienced staff and replace with cheaper new hires: age discrimination by the back door.

ratfox
Silver badge
WTF?

Re: In the current environment, women are too much of a business risk..

Given that women

* Are the overwhelming majority of sexual harassment complainants

Yeah, how dare women complain more than men about sexual harassment.

I also noticed, it's always the Jews who complain about antisemitism.

Insert sadsack pun here

Re: In the current environment, women are too much of a business risk..

"* Are the overwhelming majority of sexual harassment complainants"

We've discovered that our factory is poisoning a nearby river, so we've decided to solve the problem by getting rid of the river.

Anonymous Coward
Anonymous Coward

painful divorce, Bob?

Spazturtle
Silver badge

Re: In the current environment, women are too much of a business risk..

Rather sexist of you to assume that only women are sexually harassed. Women are just as capable of sexually harassing men as men are of women.

The treatment of men and women should be the same, if a woman asking a man out for a drink after work is not considered sexual harassment then a man asking a woman for a drink after work is also not sexual harassment.

anonanonanon

Re: In the current environment, women are too much of a business risk..

I've left jobs after 2 years, plenty of men do, what does the reason matter? In fact, it would be considered very sensible to keep your options to keep your career moving along. Companies don't consider staff if it affects their bottom line, why should employees consider companies if things are better somewhere else?

You're sexual harrasment mention is a joke no?

Anonymous Coward
Anonymous Coward

Re: In the current environment, women are too much of a business risk..

You're sexual harrasment mention is a joke no?

This kind of comment is exactly why I just left instead of reporting anything both times.

Anonymous Coward
Anonymous Coward

Bob, Bob, Bob

I'm male and work with many women in my current role, some do work part time and invariably end up working more hours than paid for, re-arrange their hours around business priorities and often still have the responsibility for caring for young children or elderly relatives.

Whilst some women do decide to be stay at home mum's this is a very small minority in the UK today, most professional couples continue to need both incomes to keep their heads above water. What is more common now is the mum's who have to return to work before they are ready, working longer hours than contracted and feeling guilty about the impact this is having on their kids.

I'm in my 50's now and my first wife was able to take a few years out to look after our children until they were established at primary school. This was a joint decision as I'm sure it was between Bob's sister and her husband. By the time the kids were in school my-ex was desperate to return to her professional role but found breaking back into the jobs market incredibly difficult. In order to do so she took roles where her salary didn't even pay the child minders costs, we were very lucky that we could afford to do this. I suspect in cases where the mother wants to return to work but can only do so by taking a much junior role on a hugely reduced salary that won't pay for child care then some women are kept out of the professional job market and end up taking on lower paid work which can be scheduled around school and may never be lucky enough to re-enter their professions.

You'll have gathered that I am no longer with my ex wife, our divorce was long, bitter and personally very expensive but none of that relates to her work history, professional ability fitness as a mother or any other characteristic.

anthonyhegedus
Silver badge

Re: In the current environment, women are too much of a business risk..

@AC the point is, we are meant to spread the risk. Men can get sick, women can get sick, men are more likely to do something risky and get killed, women are more likely to get pregnant and have kids. By spreading the risk and never discriminating by sex/gender/whatever it's called these days, we give fair and equal opportunities to everyone. We can pick and choose to some extent i.e. only hire people qualified to do the job, but we have to stop discriminating based on gender, race, etc.

However, the problems start when you run a small business. You can't afford to spread the risk between men and women. Women *are* more likely to get pregnant and have kids, so do you really want to spend time training and money investing in someone who is likely to be a drain on your resources?

By the way I don't speak to my sister either.

Anonymous Coward
Anonymous Coward

Re: In the current environment, women are too much of a business risk..

Wow, you're a massive sexist. Congrats.

jmch
Silver badge

Re: In the current environment, women are too much of a business risk..

@AC

a number of your claims were already challenged/debunked above, but I do want to focus on this one...

"* Are the overwhelming majority of sexual harassment complainants"

I think it's far worse for a business to hire someone who sexually harasses other employees than hiring someone who might complain they're being sexually harassed. Yes, women are the overwhelming majority of sexual harassment complainants because of a small but significant minority of men behave like pigs.

Unfortunately many companies still find it OK to tolerate their male employees behaving like teenage frat brats with fantasies of living in a porn movie just as long as their star trader, coder or whatever is kept happy.

Anonymous Coward
Anonymous Coward

Re: In the current environment, women are too much of a business risk..

Jesus Christ, another bigot.

Roger Kynaston

Re: In the current environment, women are too much of a business risk..

I shouldn't bite and others have responded more effectively than I can to your allegations. All I will add is that one anecdote does not a trend make. Whether the story about your sister is true or not you cannot extrapolate her alleged behaviour to all women in the workforce.

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