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Volkswagen faces fresh Dieselgate lawsuit in Germany – report

Facepalm

So...

...they're upset that they weren't made accessories to VW cheating emissions regulations?

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Re: So...

No. The investors complain that VW hasn't informed the market once it knew about the emissions problem but rather kept it secret until U.S. Environmental Protection Agency made it public in 2015.

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Anonymous Coward

Fraud or fraud and hypocrisy.

So investors are complaining that the company they invested in, that committed fraud in manipulation emissions tests, didn't give them information to allow them to commit insider trading offences?

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Re: Fraud or fraud and hypocrisy.

Have to say, my thoughts exactly.

"I'm suing you because you didn't give me a chance to spend some quality time in prison and bag me some of that sweet, sweet prison food." - said nobody, ever.

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Re: Fraud or fraud and hypocrisy.

This is Germany, where insider trading used to be quite legal (I don't know if it still is as I haven't been reading Handelsblatt for years).

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Re: Fraud or fraud and hypocrisy.

Yep. I think the investors will get first pick of the companies assets and anyone who bought VW will end up out of luck on recovering any costs in this.

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Re: Fraud or fraud and hypocrisy.

So investors are complaining that the company they invested in, that committed fraud in manipulation emissions tests, didn't give them information to allow them to commit insider trading offences?

Not only that but they seem ignorant of market regulations. ALL company announcements that might affect the price of the stocks MUST be issued on the exchange at which they are listed first. VW, loathe though I am to defend them, had no choice in the matter.

So what we have here is a bunch of people that would prefer to commit insider trading than face investment losses, and expect that any company they invest in will break the rules under which their investment was placed in order to facilitate the insider trading.

These people are not mentally fit to be investors. They should be ashamed of themselves.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Fraud or fraud and hypocrisy.

while, essentially, this is what boils down to, there are ALSO those that bought shares in the belief of Vorschung duerch Technik and all that, leading to PROFIT, and what they bought was LOSS.

Not that they would have raised a squeak, had they known about the cheat in private, as long as it stayed private, but then, MOST people, including me, are hypocrites, so at least I have some sympathy for my kind (which happens to be a dominant species). Unlike all other non-hypocratic 100% majority of the register readers and commentards.

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Re: Fraud or fraud and hypocrisy.

@ Voyna i Mor

While the case is not about insider trading we find this on the Wiki:

"While the United States is generally viewed as making the most serious efforts to enforce its insider trading laws,[4] the broader scope of the European model legislation provides a stricter framework against illegal insider trading.[5][6] In the European Union and the United Kingdom all trading on non-public information is, under the rubric of market abuse, subject at a minimum to civil penalties and to possible criminal penalties as well.".

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Anonymous Coward

As a shareholder I would be more worried

That they don't seem to be able to ship anything at the moment as they are not ready for WLTP on their most popular models. (Golf, most Polo's etc)

Some press is reporting a 6 month plus delay.

That will really hit profits as customers go elsewhere.

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Re: As a shareholder I would be more worried

This can only be a good thing for those customers when they discover that there are plenty of much better, more reliable and better value cars available.

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shareholders avoiding loss.

>>>They could have sold their shares early on or not bought them, avoiding losses.<<<

That would be insider trading would it not???

Caveat emptor etc.

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When they said...

" If only everything in life was as reliable as a Volkswagen", it was a lie?

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Re: When they said...

That was the late 70s wasn't it? Or early 80s.

In those days they were pretty good, but 40 years later now they have swapped places with their own adopted sibling Skoda and one of the poorest for quality.

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DJV
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Dieselgate

Maybe it could also be called "Beetlejuicegate"

(gets coat...)

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Dieselgate

>Maybe it could also be called "Beetlejuicegate"

The Beetle was a Nazi car.

Godwin's Law satisfied.

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Pint

Re: Dieselgate

I suspect it was a reference to Beetlejuice... the movie. But you satisfied Godwin's law..so have a cold one.

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Tze Germans...

It's bloody depressing: think VW should do some fixing for the cars sold? Nope, not happening (too expensive for poor VW). Financially compensate customers? You. Gotta. Be. Kidding.

What they did consider is financial aid for VW (and the likes).

What they did find out is that those owners need to pay more tax now.

Should you ever meet a German mocking another nation: point him to this.

The one with the Pickelhaube in the pocket --------->

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Re: Tze Germans...

Should you ever meet a German mocking another nation: point him to this.

Some might consider that VW had the misfortune to be caught first, and caught by a combative foreign regulator. Several other makers appear to have been fingered subsequently, but often with the car maker's home market regulator "managing" the issue.

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Re: Tze Germans...

No other car maker has been caught with a defeat devices, software designed to detect test mode and change engine parameters compared. This is a very clear distinction.

This despite them all being intensely scrutinised. There is no excusing VW.

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Meh

Re: Tze Germans...

> VW had the misfortune to be caught first

Yes, and it took surprisingly long to test other brands of cars. That the scandal wouldn't be VW only was everybody's suspicion, right from the start. The German government is lenient towards all German car manufacturers, to nobody's surprise.

If buyers in the US get recompensated whilst German buyers don't, that would be seriously telling.

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Re: Tze Germans...

No other car maker has been caught with a defeat devices, software designed to detect test mode and change engine parameters compared. This is a very clear distinction.

Not true.

Daimler have been caught including 'defeat devices'.

Fiat Chrysler are being fined by the EPA for similar reasons.

Nissan and Renault have both been accused of cheating on their emissions tests, but I don't think it's been proved either way yet, so lets put them on the 'maybe' pile.

(Audi and Porsche have been fined as well, but they're both VW group companies so lets not count them)

It turns out that hitting recent diesel emissions targets is really tricky, and pretty much every manufacturer has 'struggled'. Some have straight up cheated, whereas others have done their best to make sure that their vehicles can pass the tests, which is not the same as keeping to that level of emissions during regular driving.

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Re: Tze Germans...

@phuzz, both links you give are also maybes. Neither are anything near as blatant as VW's breach.

So, yeah, it is true.

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Re: Tze Germans...

"If buyers in the US get recompensated whilst German buyers don't, that would be seriously telling."

This happened. As soon as the lid was lifted on the scandal, all US customers were instantly given the right to return affected VW diesel cars to the dealer for a full refund, no questions asked. As a result, there are literally thousands of returned diesel VWs rotting away in a disused football stadium car park in the US.

No such facility was offered to EU customers. Instead, EU buyers have to submit a claim through the courts, which may or may not result in monetary compensation.

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If Volkswagen selectively told current shareholders about this, how then would acting on that information not constitute insider trading if the information is not publicly disclosed?

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DJO
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Head you win, Tails I lose

Presumably if they had tipped of investors prior to public release of information that would be insider trading which is very illegal.

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What's funny about this is that while investors might get compensation, people who bought the cars are very unlikely to. The German government is doing everything possible to smother court actions until the majority of claims pass the statute of limitations at the end of the year. Germany's molly-coddling of the car industry has to be seen to be believed.

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Germany's molly-coddling of the car industry has to be seen to be believed.

I can credit that. But it seems to work. Back here in Blighty our largest British owned, British made, British engineered maker is.......<drum roll>.........

Morgan.

Walked past a brand new one the other day and it was beautiful, and I wanted it sooooooo much. But not everyone's cup of tea, and Morgan on their own hardly constitute a car industry.

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"Germany's molly-coddling of the car industry has to be seen to be believed."

See also US treatment of its arms industry and UK's treatment of its tax avoidance industry. In other news, countries tend to be nice to their cash-cow industries.

I don't approve of the fact that everybody does it but...everybody does it.

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Walked past a brand new one the other day and it was beautiful, and I wanted it sooooooo much. But not everyone's cup of tea, and Morgan on their own hardly constitute a car industry.

How any man can walk past a Plus 8 or Roadster and not want one is beyond comprehension. I may never buy one, but I'll always want one.

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>while investors might get compensation, people who bought the cars are very unlikely to.

Why should people who brought the cars get compensation? Remember the fuel consumption and emissions figures are advisory and thus will have a disclaimer attached:

It should be noted that as the fuel consumption figures quoted are obtained under specific test conditions, they may not be achieved under ‘real world’ driving conditions. However, the figures serve as a means of comparing models of a similar type. . From 1 September 2017, the new Worldwide Harmonised Light Vehicle Test Procedure (WLTP) came into force. Click here to read more about WLTP.

Because of the nature of testing procedures, the type approval emissions figures (shown by clicking on ‘vehicle details’ from the search results) should be treated with caution and specifically should not be used to rank a number of vehicles for which similar figures are quoted.

[http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/fcb/fuel-consumption-and-co2-tools-disclaimer.asp ]

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wait for the Dyson drivemobile!

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How any man can walk past a Plus 8 or Roadster and not want one is beyond comprehension. I may never buy one, but I'll always want one.

Due to seeing a vehicle as a method of getting from A to B rather than an object of desire in it's own right?

Personally I drive around a 19 year old car that was cheap to buy, is cheap to run and is reasonably comfortable when driving it around. Given that my yearly maintenance bill is below the monthly rental costs of a new hire purchase deal I have no particular desire to replace my vehicle while it's still working, especially not with something expensive.

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A company is owned by its shareholders. So shareholders suing each other. Again.

I suppose lawyers have children who might starve.

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Cooler: three veeks.

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Meanwhile BMW

is recalling some of their diesel autos:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bmw-recall/bmw-recalls-324000-cars-in-europe-after-korean-engine-fires-faz-idUSKBN1KS1ST

I don't know about you, but spontaneous combustion seems a more immediate issue than emissions cheating.

Of course, BMW could always ask this comment to be removed as a "Right to be forgotten".

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Re: Meanwhile BMW

"I don't know about you, but spontaneous combustion seems a more immediate issue than emissions cheating."

It may be. It depends on the frequency and severity. The BMW problem has caused 27 fires, no deaths reported.

Ford have had to recall two and a half million of their F-150 urban runabouts due to, I think, under 20 cases of the pretensioners causing a fire in the C-pillar when deployed. Also no fatalities.

Although it is difficult to provide precise numbers, NOx emissions do have an effect on healthy life expectancy.

So although it's a literally invisible problem, lying about NOx emissions could be a far more serious problem

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Anonymous Coward

Common practice

In recent years it has become common practice for stockholders to sue companies hoping to realize unearned profits under questionable claims. In most cases the plaintiffs do no prevail. In the U.S. local courts occasionally grant relief but this is often overturned on appeal. Unless a company does something really obvious to defraud stockholders these suits rarely succeed. Some view them as fishing expeditions. institutional investors are becoming known for these types of lawsuits when they bet heavily on a company and are wrong.

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Umm, my 2015 Passat TDI 2.0 has been fixed and passes US and California emissions tests. This cost me nothing (and VW lent me a Tuareg while it was happening, so it didn't inconvenience me much, either).

The checks from VW and Bosch totalling roughly 25% of what I paid for the car new ) cleared, and the money is in my bank.

My car runs as well as ever, with no noticeable change to performance or fuel economy (although apparently it will consume more "AdBlue" now).

So as far as I can see, VW has fixed the problem and paid me a lot of cash, too.

I think this is the only car I've ever owned that appreciated in value!

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Holmes

Only in America

They didn't do so in Germany or many other countries, though.

Here, they pretended to fix the problem with a plastic piece for a few cents and software updates. Recent tests have shown that they didn't fix anything. The emissions seemingly (just about) made it, but then they sored up during cold temperatures (winter) instead = hoax).

So, over here the cars lost A LOT in value and their owners didn't get zilt from Volkswagen. ;-)

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So as far as I can see, VW has fixed the problem and paid me a lot of cash, too.

But it's still a Volkswagen.

No amount of cash would be enough for me.

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How long will it take

The lawsuit decision can take years, and then an appeal will be possible.

One can wonder that only VW is concerned by such a procedure, whilst many other manufacturers ( most do not work in USA ) have done similar cheats, and have as yet not been charged in their home countries

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Alert

VW wants to stop production in Wolfsburg at the beginning of October

VW wants to stop production in Wolfsburg (company home) at the beginning of October (presumably for a week):

http://aktnach.org/wolfsburg/2018/09/11/402274-vw-will-produktion-in-wolfsburg-anfang-oktober-stoppen.html [text is in German]

Volkswagen has rented huge areas in the capital's (unfinished) airport to park cars. They are parking them on racetracks and they are renting multi-story car parks as well. They rent every space they can find, just so they can park their new cars there! Allegedly, they "still have to pass the emission tests" before they can be sold. If I raise doubts about that version, my posting will be censored as it happened earlier.

Everything is fine, move along - there's nothing to be seen here... ;-)

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