back to article Connected car data handover headache: There's no quick fix... and it's NOT just Land Rovers

The perils of previous owners retaining unfettered access to the data and controls of connected cars after resale is a wider problem across the industry, The Register has discovered. We have confirmed that BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Nissan may all have much the same issue as Jaguar Land Rover, the focus of our recent article on …

Page:

  1. Neil Barnes Silver badge

    This needs some input from the DVLR

    When a car is sold, scrapped, or disposed of to a dealer, (in the UK) the DVLA must be informed.

    Dealers have access to the DVLA database.

    Some way of linking the DLVA owner change event to a scrub it clean event ought not to be beyond the bounds of possibility...

    1. macjules

      Re: This needs some input from the DVLR

      DVLA is still living in an age where the latest technology is, "hey look, you press a button and the front windows go up and down".

      Asking them to come up with coherent guidelines for electronic user registration and de-registration would be like asking Capita to organise a single sign-on system for the NHS.

      1. Tom 38

        Re: This needs some input from the DVLR

        I find the DVLA driver license verification tool* effective and modern, and when I renewed my driving license, it was literally 5 minutes of point n click, with a photo from my smartphone; it couldn't have been simpler.

        * When you rent a car; you go on the DVLA website, enter a few details from your license and get a 6 digit code to give to the rental agency to verify your license.

        1. ACZ
          Thumb Up

          Re: This needs some input from the DVLR

          Yes... there are some convenient online systems from uk.gov (fx: dons protective headgear... ;)

          When a car is purchased with all this internet connected stuff, is the data controller identified to the buyer? Is there a way for the new registered keeper to notify the data controller to revoke all third party access (including previous owner/registered keeper access)? Is there a way for the registered keeper to verify who has access to data associated with their vehicle?

          Surely we just need a system where (a) the DVLA issues the registered keeper with a time-limited single use code specific to the vehicle, (b) they can then go onto the data controller's website and use it to associate the vehicle with them, and then (c) they can access the full list of connected devices/accounts and modify as appropriate.

          Place a statutory obligation on anybody who sells a vehicle to notify the buyer of all data controllers and you're sorted.

          Simples :)

          1. Lee D Silver badge

            Re: This needs some input from the DVLR

            I imagine Ford et al have to access that information for any serious recall.

            The facility therefore already exists for them to poll such data, and spot ownership changes. If DVLA provided a "trigger" for such events automatically (rather than continuous polling) they could easily provide such to the manufacturers. And there would be any number of good reasons to.

            The DVLA are actually quite modern nowadays. Insurance, MOT, driving licence, etc. data are all available online via APIs (maybe only to closed companies like AskMID and hire companies but they are there!). And, as people point out, you can even cross your passport and driving licence photos and data for renewing them.

            It wouldn't be a big stretch for DVLA to offer an API to the major motor manufacturers (who presumably don't send CSVs of all the new car registrations / serials etc. to the DVLA as they build them but have some kind of API!) to allow them to query all such ownership changes and archive their data making the car available to register again. They don't even need to "notify" anyone who hasn't asked to be notified (e.g. the new owner, no, the old owner who had an account, maybe so!). They just wait for someone to try to register their "new" car again.

            To be honest, the tech to register these cars should at least be matching the level of tech in them in the first place, or there's something incredibly awry.

            1. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

              Re: This needs some input from the DVLR @Lee D

              The ability to use your passport photo as part of the driving license application has been there since about 2006.I was part of the project that implemented it.

              I don't think that it is that radical to tack a bit of function to the already existing process of registering a change of ownership of a vehicle. All of the generation of the V5C is already there, and it would be relatively trivial to add something like a code generation step and notification of change of ownership to the manufacturer (although it would have to not include either the previous owner or the new owner information for data protection reasons).

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: This needs some input from the DVLR

            Place a statutory obligation on anybody who sells a vehicle to notify the buyer of all data controllers and you're sorted.

            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            There are people (like me) who aren't sure what a data controller is, and has no clue how to figure out which data controllers are associated with an arbitrary make and model of vehicle.

            For that matter, this article was my first inkling that a 'data controller' was associated with the vehicle.

            And, of course, any solution that only works in the UK is quite useless to the majority of vehicle owners.

        2. The Original Steve

          Re: This needs some input from the DVLR

          "I find the DVLA driver license verification tool* effective and modern..."

          Only if you know your "Government Gateway" ID and passwords. My brother tried to change the address on his driving licence last week

          He gave up after countless attempts so came to his sibling with two decade of professional IT experience to do it for him. Involved a reset of his password, then we didn't know the randomly generated username which the government send him via the post 5 years ago, so had to then "re-register" countless times, before giving up and creating a new ID from scratch.

          Took us over an hour.

          1. Ozumo

            Re: This needs some input from the DVLR

            Driver verification needs your licence number, postcode and NI number. Shouldn't take someone with two decades of IT experience an hour to come up with that...

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: This needs some input from the DVLR

          Ah yes the wonderful DVLA. We had an issue with transferring a reg number onto retention while assigning a number already on retention to the vehcle. As instructed we sent in all the documentation and a cheque, After a couple of weeks we had the paperwork back for the retained number to be assigned, but no sign of the new retention certificate. after a few weeks we called them only to be told they hadnt received the application to retain the removed number , despite the fact that all the document was stapled together, in one envelope sealed with sellotape and posted via the Signed for Royal mail service.

          It took weeks of calls and 2 further identical forms to sort it out, oh and 2 more cheques - it seems they destroy those they dont immediately bank.

          So is it really likely that the DVLA can cope with a new function - when it cant even master a process that predates even its prior incarnation as the Government run DVLC?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: This needs some input from the DVLR

            The DVLA dropped my wife's car into a data black hole : it did not officially exist when the peelers ran a random roadside check on the plates.

            We were driving an iCar (mathematically imaginary)...

            That was a fun day, but luckily we found two coppers with a sense of ironic humour.

            So,, trust the DVLA to get some more data right?

            Lol.

      2. J. Cook Silver badge
        Joke

        Re: This needs some input from the DVLR

        "hey look, you press a button and the front windows go up and down".

        Now I have the guys from Bad Obsession (Youtube "Project Binky") doing the "windows go up! Windows go down!" gag. :)

    2. The Man Who Fell To Earth Silver badge

      BIG FAT RESET BUTTON

      At the top level menu on the car itself should be a selection that cleans the car computer completely including deauthorizing any remote access or control. Yes, have a barrage of "Are you sure?" screens for idiot filtering, but deauthorizing should be easy to do AT THE CAR.

      1. Charles 9

        Re: BIG FAT RESET BUTTON

        But that enables Evil Valet attacks. It MUST be trickier than just doing something in the car or it CAN AND WILL be abused.

        1. whitepines

          Re: BIG FAT RESET BUTTON

          How about a passcode / PIN to reset? When you buy the car from someone else, either they put in the PIN and reset it in front of you, or the reset the PIN back to 0000 (default) when they want to sell the car and then you can go reset it (again) for verification.

          Simple.

          1. ChrisC Silver badge

            Re: BIG FAT RESET BUTTON

            And when, as they will do, forget to enter/reset the PIN prior to sale?

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: BIG FAT RESET BUTTON

              And when, as they will do, forget to enter/reset the PIN prior to sale?

              ====================================================================

              Easy.

              A vehicle specific master wipe password that will only trigger a wipe, and is only available to the registered owner of the car tied to the VIN and only from the manufacturer, at a dealership or other location that can verify identity.

              1. TG2.2

                Re: BIG FAT RESET BUTTON

                First of all ... this issue isn't new. When was the last time you rented a car, that's bluetooth enabled? Ever tried to connect your phone.. and find others still in there?

                So first and foremost, its the lazy people getting in these situations, that don't go through those apps and clear out their own data .. the last three cars I rented, I could have downloaded someone else's Phonebook data .. but being more of a white hat .. I simply deleted the other data from the system. They all have options to do so.

                Second .. while I get Anon's idea.. it again imposes issues.. just like all of the other technological fixes for a horribly broken human existence.. Sure.. limit the reset to being at the dealer .. or manufacturer .. which means.. you *WILL* most likely have to PAY THEM to perform the service, even if its just to give you the code to do it yourself, while you are in *THEIR* parking lot, etc..

                You think they won't? Look at all the american greed mongers that charge 75 dollars or more just to attach their Diag Tool to the modern car, to read what the car is saying is wrong .. and if you DONT pay it .. they hand it back to junior who sits there and futz around trying to figure out what's wrong, without using the Diag Data that should immediately move the technician to the troubled issue.

                The simple fact, is 1st world problems, and educating people that this is an issue they must ensure for themselves doesn't happen for *THEIR* car, their sale of, or purchase ... that they make sure their first or last actions (depending on if you're the new owner, or the former) are to delete / wipe / reset via the option ALREADY PRESENT in the car and apps to do so.

                1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

                  Re: BIG FAT RESET BUTTON

                  When was the last time you rented a car, that's bluetooth enabled?

                  I have no idea. I rent cars a few times a year, but there is no way in pluperfect hell I would use the Bluetooth in one.

                  Ever tried to connect your phone.. and find others still in there?

                  Good lord, no. What an astoundingly bad idea.

            2. whitepines

              Re: BIG FAT RESET BUTTON

              Handle it in the same way as "forgetting" to sign title transfer paperwork or "forgetting" to give you all the keys? I.e. don't pay for the car until the previous owner is actually willing to transfer you all rights to the car?

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: BIG FAT RESET BUTTON

          Citizen, you have failed in your duty to keep focus on the approved order of existential threats, from which your leaders will protect you.

          -peace is breaking out in Eastern Europe

          -this must be prevented

          -we assume your patriotic approval for the required cafe mortaring and outrage-generation program, and will be initialising the direct-debits for your part of the required material support presently. As a citizen of good standing, you automatically approve.

          -please stand by

          -remember to print out and mail your eulogy to the joy of Things Being Put Right, the proper wording provided in the attachment. This will be affixed to the mortar tubes in the approved fashion. 100gsm or better, no cheap stuff.

          -Note, the part about "cursing their childrens' bones" has been updated and revised to remove Biblical refences, and replaced with excerpts from our new culture- the works contained in Lord Of The Rings, Game of Thrones and the writings of Ol' Dirty Bastard and Gwen Stefani, in her spiritual sequence of catechisms "Hollaback Girl".

          We trust you are familiar with the wording, and that Gothic font will be acceptable.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: BIG FAT RESET BUTTON

        At the top level menu on the car itself should be a selection that cleans the car computer completely including deauthorizing any remote access or control. Yes, have a barrage of "Are you sure?" screens for idiot filtering, but deauthorizing should be easy to do AT THE CAR.

        ===================================================================

        Better than not having it, but it really needs a 'wipe password'.

    3. Rackspanner

      Re: This needs some input from the DVLR

      The DVLA are not going to get involved - they deal with licenses and vehicle registration. Asking them to deal with registration and deregistration of user accounts is a long way outside their job description. It would be like asking them to manage your photos of the car on Facebook.

      The GDPR is the way to go here. The car industry GREATLY prefers self-regulation (see, for example, the industry's initiative to introduce speed limiters which kick-in at a "sensible" 250kmh). So the best bet is to make them feel like some authority is going to get involved and let them sort it themselves in a hurry.

    4. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

      Re: This needs some input from the DVLR

      This is an excellent solution for car manufacturers who only sell cars in the UK.

      Those who have to deal with multiple jurisdictions may find it difficult to build a system that accommodates automated interactions with all of them.

  2. Locky

    Good news!

    The software on my Fiat is so diabolical even I can't connect. The chance of someone else being able to is minimal

    1. Chronos
      Coat

      Re: Good news!

      Re: the title, I thought you were going to tell us about a new Dacia Sandero.

      Anyway... :-)

      1. dankell

        Re: Good news!

        The Dacia Sandero I just had as a courtesy car had quite a few previous bluetooth devices in it's history.

        I didn't check whether the previous users synced their Contacts.

        It was nice and easy to unpair when I returned the car.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "When I buy a car, I want to be able to make sure MYSELF it is no longer accessible to previous owners"

    When I buy a car, I want one that doesn't have any connection to the bloody Internet.

    1. Laura Kerr
      Thumb Up

      "When I buy a car, I want one that doesn't have any connection to the bloody Internet."

      I agree with you - I can see no benefit at all in having my car spew data all over tinterwebz.

      You might end up having to go retro in a few years, though. I have a Land Rover, but it's a Defender. Apart from the ECU, the only electronic gubbins it has are the immobiliser and tracker. A nice big chunky metal steering wheel cover and a Rat Trap transmission lock help keep it safe. Low-tech, analogue and effective. And that's how I like it.

      1. Chris G

        '92 Disco here, the only way it can be 'connected' is with a chain or a welding kit.

        I already have two laptops, a phone and a tablet trying to track me so who needs the car in on it as well ? Want to use GPS? I have a suckery thing to stick my phone to the screen, although so far I have managed to drive over most of Europe, bitsof the US and a chunk of India without any connection to anything more than asking the occasional pedestrian where something local is.

        As I have said before I like Gps for sailing with an auto steer but no need for it on the roads.

        Pretty soon they will be connecting your children at birth because paedophiles etc.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      'When I buy a car, I want one that doesn't have any connection to the bloody Internet'

      Was asking the same thing. Then I read this and it was clear. The car makers want in on the slurp game. This is just phase-1, like when Smart TV's phoned-home file names of stuff watched:

      -----

      The Car of the Future Will Sell Your Data - Bloomberg

      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-20/the-car-of-the-future-will-sell-your-data

      -----

      Crunching Car Data for Cash: An Israeli Startup Takes on Google

      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-20/crunching-car-data-for-cash-an-israeli-startup-takes-on-google

      -----

      Peak Car - and the End of an Industry

      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-17/-peak-car-and-the-end-of-an-industry

      -----

      The glitch that stole Christmas: How to handle smart tech gifts

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42361279

      -----

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "When I buy a car, I want one that doesn't have any connection to the bloody Internet."

      ==========================================

      Wire cutters, I tell you, or a pre-blown fuse.

    4. Mark 65

      Do these cars use a soft SIM or is it one that could be removed?

  4. Pete 2 Silver badge

    Do you own your car?

    > "This is an unreasonable demand to make of JLR because any such automatic bullet-proof method would be dependent upon a similarly bullet-proof system/process whereby JLR is informed of the sale of any of their vehicles, including private sales."

    It is not unreasonable. When car makers offer "connected car" services, they take on a duty of care regarding the data they collect. A part of that care is to prevent it being used by any party that does not have a right to it. That includes previous owners of the vehicle.

    This is a break from the old supplier-customer relationship of a single sell-buy transaction (with warranty obligations). Since the car-makers have elected to create this feature and to make it open-ended, time-wise, the onus is on them to make it work. And not just for the original owner.

    1. wolfetone Silver badge

      Re: Do you own your car?

      I think Vauxhall were criticised heavily in the wake of the Zafira recall that they hadn't notified all of the owners of the cars affected. Eventually they did or are nearly there, and that's before we even get to Vauxhall actually fixing the cars.

      If my memory is correct, in times of a recall the manufacturer will ask the DVLA for the details of the registered keepers of the cars needed, and in turn they'll be sent letters notifying the customer of the issue and what to do. Honda did this to me when the CR-V needed a recall on the drivers side window switch.

      It's not at all unreasonable, or complicated, to notify the manufacturer of a change of keeper at least via the DVLA, especially as everything is becoming increasingly electronic. The data is there, a mechanism already sort of exists one way that could be facilitated to work in this context.

  5. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    "we consider the previous owner to be responsible for the removal of the vehicle from the account, this is also agreed upon in our terms of use"

    So a Merc is subject to terms of use. In that case, who actually owns the vehicle, the person who thinks they bought it or the manufacturer?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Same applies when I buy a multipack of ice creams, each one labelled "NOT TO BE SOLD SEPARATELY".

      Do I actually own them? Or am I only licensed* to eat them, in accordance with the manufacturer's terms and conditions?

      *Licence is not transferrable

      1. MJB7
        Headmaster

        Re: NOT TO BE SOLD SEPARATELY

        This doesn't mean "we will object if you sell them separately", it means "you will be breaking the law if they are sold separately, because they aren't individually labelled with the ingredients etc"

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: NOT TO BE SOLD SEPARATELY

          I have beside me a can of Diet Coke from a six-pack. The can has the full list of ingredients and nutrition information; the manufacturer's contact details; and expiry date on the base.

          Underneath the nutrition information is a panel which says "Multipack can. Not to be sold separately".

          If they've omitted something legally-required, it must be very subtle.

          1. Aladdin Sane

            Re: NOT TO BE SOLD SEPARATELY

            Who hasn't bought a can like that from a fête or tuck shop at any point in their lives? It's more about stopping your local corner shop shops buying multipacks and then selling them separately, reducing the profit of Coca Cola etc.

            1. Charles 9

              Re: NOT TO BE SOLD SEPARATELY

              So why hasn't the labeling been challenged on exhaustion grounds?

              1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

                Re: NOT TO BE SOLD SEPARATELY

                "So why hasn't the labeling been challenged on exhaustion grounds?"

                Has a manufacturer of fizzy sugar solutions actually tried to enforce that term? In absence of that it's probably not worth anyone's while to launch their own challenge.

                1. Kibble 2

                  Re: NOT TO BE SOLD SEPARATELY

                  "So why hasn't the labeling been challenged..."

                  IANAL, however big selling items in some, generally, smaller private shops are purchased at a slightly higher price directly from the manufacturer. The shop owner, not having an agreement with the manufacturer, is therefore not subject to the rules set in the contracts larger food stores or certain family chain stores have to abide by. The labeling is still the same to save money by the manufacturer. The store's employees are responsible for restocking and rotation in the independent shops.

            2. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

              Re: NOT TO BE SOLD SEPARATELY @Aladdin Sane

              Check the size of the product from the multipack.

              If it's crisps, snacks or chocolate, especially if bought from Poundland or Iceland, the individual pack size from the multipack is probably smaller than the packs bought individually. This is the reason they're not supposed to be sold separately, so that the manufacturer does not get blamed for reducing the pack size.

              The manufacturers do this to try to make the multipacks appear better value than they actually are!

          2. Kibble 2

            Re: NOT TO BE SOLD SEPARATELY

            If they've omitted something legally-required, it must be very subtle.

            I'm not sure if the system in food stores is the same everywhere, but here in the states some items are stocked and locations of the items being sold are maintained by manufacturers representatives, including rotation of expired items: in essence, the manufacturers signed a rental space for various food items with the food stores. The packaging of the items are subject to the specifics agreed to in the agreements. It's much the same where a vending machine company places their machines.

            1. Kibble 2

              Re: NOT TO BE SOLD SEPARATELY

              Sorry I didn't add that a vending machine could be either privately owned or subject to a contract with the property owner. The many vending machines where I work, a multipurpose sports arena, are subject to a contract with several companies. The vending company is required, by their contract, to check and maintain both the stock and functionality of their machines on a set number of days each week. (I suspect they come more often when needed of course.)

        2. The Nazz

          Re: NOT TO BE SOLD SEPARATELY

          Educated guess : You don't shop much around West Yorkshire, do you?

      2. JohnFen

        Are you a retail outfit buying the stuff from an authorized distributer? That's who those messages are meant for. Those are not legally binding notices. It's a bit like in the old days when record companies would send music to radio stations at no charge, and the media would be stamped "Not for Resale". That only applies to people they have a contract with, and you are not in that group of people, so you can legally ignore the wording entirely.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          So the contract of sale between Coca Cola's distributor and the retailer, specifies that the retailer may not split a multipack?

          Therefore the retailer doesn't own the product they've bought?

          Or they own it, but if they refuse to comply with terms as to what they do with it, the distributor will refuse to supply again in future?

          1. Kibble 2

            RE: Ownership

            "Therefore the retailer doesn't own the product they've bought?"

            I did give you a thumbs up, on the condition of your original thought: you haven't considered that contract law has many levels. If you go to a specific food store, you might want to purchase a certain soft drink. You might find it in a certain aisle, and you pay the food store for the item. The larger stores limit the number of employees to keep costs down. At times you might see a uniformed soft drink representative stocking the the shelves however. They are paid to deliver and maintain the level of stock by the manufacturer of that sweet fizzy soft drink. The food store you are shopping in does not necessarily own the product, but, by contract, shares in the profit and/or simply rents the space to that brand of sweet goodness. There are agreements with many other product suppliers. The specifics of the contracts differ, but are essentially the same where the store does not own the products: it just makes things convenient.

            If you think about it, it makes good fiscal sense for the food store since you won't have to roam about looking for the product if you know exactly where to find it every time you visit and in the size of packaging needed. You're in briefly and dropping cash. There is a lot of science in how food stores are run. And don't get me started on the self check-out lanes. LOL!

Page:

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Other stories you might like