back to article Galileo, here we go again. My my, the Brits are gonna miss EU

The House of Commons Select Committee for Science and Technology yesterday hauled UK government bigwigs in to explain themselves in light of the latest round of Galileo handbag-swinging. However, anyone hoping to see Minister for Defence Procurement Guto Bebb, Head of Cyber and Space Policy Nick Ayling, or UK Space Agency …

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  1. Jess

    Brexit means Brexit

    Who would have thought that becoming a third country means we have to play by the same rules as all other third countries?

    1. ArrZarr Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Re: Brexit means Brexit

      From the leavers opinions, they consider Britian to be such an economic powerhouse that we should get special treatment á la the US and China, being able to keep our fingers in such pies that would be closed to less glorious nations.

      1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

        Re: Brexit means EDF!

        That's the European Defence Force. Which pro-EU types said would never happen, but is. Much to the disappointment of the US. I mean NATO. But we'd still be a part of NATO, and seem to have been invited to participate in the EDF. Which means there'd need to be some co-ordination between multinational EU forces. Even if that means a EUrocrat follows ours along with a pram to make sure their nav toys get put back in it.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          NATO...

          no serious ordnance would rely on Galileo most use a rather nice laser (for INS)

          Galileo works "in combination" with GPS and is rather easy to block again not something you want in modern warfare

          the ONLY good thing is that it increases the accuracy for things like your car, tank and the ambulance Navigation system when NOT at war

          which is pretty important considering the truck that takes sick people to hospital actually SAVES LIVES

          (requires the PRS)

          lets see how the EU gets on when it see's the NATO operations...

          1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

            Re: NATO... And the German car industry.

            the ONLY good thing is that it increases the accuracy for things like your car, tank and the ambulance Navigation system when NOT at war.

            I wonder if leaving the EU means we can have personal tanks? Or even APCs? But I digress. So Galileo always had a bit of a problem of being a solution in search of a problem. Like vehicle navigation. But that's been working just fine using GPS and other systems. So the EU's had goes at promoting road charging, and wouldn't you just know it but Galileo was the solution for that! Meanwhile, Galileo rolled on, absorbing large amounts of money and still being !GPS.

            Of course if the EU waves money at contractors to work on the project, companies will take the pork. But why would we need Galileo, when other alternatives are available and good enough for most government work? Then again, a lot of politicians are easily impressed and not very tech savvy. Easier to say it's like your phone's map, only better! and take the pork than explain stuff like laser gyros or the way an ICBM can see stars.

            1. Roland6 Silver badge

              Re: NATO... And the German car industry.

              >So Galileo always had a bit of a problem of being a solution in search of a problem.

              Err no!

              Galileo was squarely aimed at the growing commercial market for GPS, and thus addressing clear deficiencies in the US military first GPS system. However, given how things have progressed since then, we can ask whether Galileo still has a market.

              Additionally, Galileo was about whether Europe should have a space industry or simply buys in space technology developed elsewhere. To some extent the same applies to why Airbus exists - European aerospace industry; many at the time thought it was just the French being awkward, and not wanting to buy aircraft from Boeing...

              1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                Re: NATO... And the German car industry.

                Galileo was squarely aimed at the growing commercial market for GPS, and thus addressing clear deficiencies in the US military first GPS system. However, given how things have progressed since then, we can ask whether Galileo still has a market.

                Those questions were asked years ago, not long after the project kicked off. First it was to be a PFI gig, and access sold to willing customers. There were even Enron-like revenue projections, with Enron-style revenue recognition problems. Then it became 'nationalised' and a money pit because despite there only being one true EU, various member states argued, so it was delayed, and the cost grew, and grew.

                Additionally, Galileo was about whether Europe should have a space industry or simply buys in space technology developed elsewhere.

                That kinda happened. So a firm in Surrey built Galileo satellites. The EU member in good standing Switzerland supplied the clocks.. Which started failing. So after 40bn Euros or so of public funding, there's just about a full constellation of partially faulty flying clocks.. With limited possibility of new satellites being funded, or launched from that well-known part of Europe, Guyana.

                Other launch options are now available, especially if you consider the possibility of using lower cost cube-sat designs that could be launched just-in-time, and allow for easier replacement if an enemy has ASATs.. Which for the style of conflicts we've had recently is unlikely. But then those conflicts probably also don't need cm accuracy unless commanders want to make sure their Hesco walls are perfectly square. And if you're delivering 40kt of instant sunshine, +/- a few metres is probably good enough for government work. For other deliveries, it might be nice to know where your missile is, but unless the targets have been thoroughly surveyed, GPS or Galileo won't help you hit them.

                1. HxBro
                  Mushroom

                  Re: NATO... And the German car industry.

                  The question is, will it allow me to get more accurate readings of where the delivery driver is with my latest online purchase, the map usually says they are the other side of town and I'm 75th delivery today, yet when I go to the toilet thinking, "I've got time", as soon as I'm mid flow the door bell goes and it's the delivery driver!

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: NATO... And the German car industry.

                Airbus was originally proposed by Hawker Siddeley, Breguet and Nord to rationalise construction of a single airliner rather than having three competing planes each taking an uneconomically small share of the market. The name itself came from Hawker Siddeley. In 1966, the three founding partners were Sud Aviation (now Aerospatiale), Arbeitsgemeinschaft Airbus (Deutsche Airbus) and HS. The memo of understanding was signed by the UK, France and Germany in 1967.

                The UK then had one of its usual fits of incompetence and withdrew in 1969, fortunately for the sake of UK aerospace, HS was allowed to continue wing design as a partner outside of the formal consortium. The UK rejoined as a formal partner in 1979 when British Aerospace bought a 20% share in the company.

            2. JohnG

              Re: NATO... And the German car industry.

              The fundamental problem with using GPS for anything important is that it is a US military system and the US government/military may decide to turn off the commercial signal locally, regionally or globally, to mitigate some perceived threat. The same can be said of GLONASS.

          2. Lars Silver badge
            Happy

            Re: NATO...

            "Galileo works "in combination" with GPS".

            No it's independent on GPS.

            1. Uffish

              Re: NATO...

              But you could use it in combination with glonass and gps. Might even help with accuracy if things got tricky and all of them were set to random dither mode. Would the average of three falsified positions be closer to the real position? I don't know and I don't care, it's to hot to care.

          3. Chrisni

            Re: NATO...

            Long range ordinance (cruise missles etc) use Satellite based navigation systems for most of the journey (assisted by other onboard systems) before switching to terminal guidance systems.

            You can block satellite navigation signals only over relatively short distances, as it involves literally blasting out static on the same radio frequencies to over-power the signal, so Galileo for military uses is still an important keystone to move EU countries away from solely relying on the US owned GPS system (Russia by contrast has it's own GLONASS system).

          4. Afernie

            Re: NATO...

            "Galileo works "in combination" with GPS and is rather easy to block again not something you want in modern warfare"

            No, you wouldn't want it modern warfare, because it isn't for modern or any other kind of warfare. Galileo is *interoperable* with GPS, GLONASS, etc. It does not rely on GPS, and is not, nor was it ever a military system.

        2. BebopWeBop

          Re: Brexit means EDF!

          In the incarnation proposed - supported by the UK - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1032336.stm

        3. Roland6 Silver badge

          Re: Brexit means EDF!

          "That's the European Defence Force. Which pro-EU types said would never happen, but is. Much to the disappointment of the US.",

          Don't see why the US should be disappointed:

          "Recent conflicts in the Balkans have increased pressure, mainly from Washington, on Europe to make greater independent defence provisions."

          [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1032336.stm ]

          1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

            Re: Brexit means EDF!

            Don't see why the US should be disappointed:

            NATO=US+EU. Plus expanded definition of 'North Atlantic' to cover expansion.

            EDF=EU+US, if the US is invited to participate.

            The Balkans isn't necessarily a good example given it included a US commander demanding we attack Russians who'd occupied an airport. Libya may be a better example, ie French lead with the US dragged in under duress. And has left a liberated Libya, free from the tyranny of Gadaffi.. And now back to running slave markets, Barbary style.

          2. Potemkine! Silver badge

            Re: Brexit means EDF!

            Don't see why the US should be disappointed

            1) Because it won't be in charge and won't have a word to say.

            2) Because it will have consequences on materials. If European countries start

            (at last!) to take seriously military matters into their own hands, they will favor buying european stuff rather than american ones. A lot of money won't flow to the US anymore.

      2. TVU Silver badge

        Re: Brexit means Brexit

        "From the leavers opinions, they consider Britian to be such an economic powerhouse that we should get special treatment á la the US and China, being able to keep our fingers in such pies that would be closed to less glorious nations"

        There is this grand delusion going on that the UK still has the British Empire and that it has a huge economy the size of Japan's when the reality is that the UK is in GDP world ranking freefall thanks to Brexit and Leave votes and that it will end in 7th place behind both France and India, i.e. the UK is becoming a less important nation economically.

        The question then becomes, "How will the UK fund this new Galileo me too system?"

        The UK's already spending £110 billion on (Chinese owned) HS2 so the only payment option is yet more of those Brexit magic unicorn currency units.

    2. macjules

      Re: Brexit means Brexit

      "Minister for Defence Procurement Guto Bebb"

      Has someone in the House of Commons started using Star Wars names for ministers, by any chance? I think that we should be told.

      1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        Unhappy

        "Minister for Defence Procurement Guto Bebb"

        Yes I think he's a real person.

        1. hplasm
          Holmes

          Re: "Minister for Defence Procurement Guto Bebb"

          "Yes I think he's a real person.

          Jedi or Sith?

          1. WolfFan Silver badge

            Re: "Minister for Defence Procurement Guto Bebb"

            "Yes I think he's a real person.

            Jedi or Sith?

            Gungan.

          2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
            Unhappy

            Re: "Minister for Defence Procurement Guto Bebb" Jedi or Sith?

            He's a politician.

            His allegiance is..... flexible.

          3. weegie38

            Re: "Minister for Defence Procurement Guto Bebb"

            He's a Tory - do you really need to ask?

          4. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: "Minister for Defence Procurement Guto Bebb" / Jedi or Sith?

            currently Humpty-Dumpty, i.e. both (at least until he finds out with absolute certainty, which way the power blows)

        2. Stoneshop
          Headmaster

          Re: "Minister for Defence Procurement Guto Bebb"

          Yes I think he's a real person.

          [ ] integer - not a politician

          [ ] complex - a scientist, probably

          [x] real - none of the above

    3. David 164

      Re: Brexit means Brexit

      Most leavers have low levels of interests in these subjects as a consequence of having a very low level IQ.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Brexit means Brexit

        "Most leavers have low levels of interests in these subjects as a consequence of having a very low level IQ."

        That's not fair. Most gamers know there is a huge difference between intelligence and wisdom.

      2. Polardog

        Re: Brexit means Brexit

        Rubbish, get your head out of your ass.

        can't see this is all bluff and bluster. If it does end up meaning we go our way, so be it. I have every faith our engineers will come up with a quirky British way of doing it and end up being superior, as always.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Brexit means Brexit

          Of course, just unfortunately it won't be built by engineers. It will be built by business. So expect a) design work - that would be BAE outsourced to it's Indian design office. b) Construction - well South Korea are really cheap and they beat Germany so... and c) Launch - North Korea have a few rockets they don't need any more thanks to the orange haired one, and it's near where they are being built, and not forgetting d) management consultancy provided by some superannuated Brexiteer's Cayman Islands tax efficient Irish subsidiary.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Brexit means Brexit

        Most remainers have low levels of interests in these subjects as a consequence of having a very low level IQ.

        FTFY

    4. Hans 1
      Unhappy

      Re: Brexit means Brexit

      Worse off than third countries ... some third countries have agreements in place ... UK? Not one!

      So, at this point, us Brits can do two things:

      1. blame ourselves

      2. blame ourselves

      Brexit referendum that figure had at least halved. Direct job losses would be measured in the hundreds.

      Hundreds of jobs? Why is this even news?

      Airbus: 14 000 DIRECT jobs in the UK, 100 000 more contractors and subcontractors.

      BMW, Honda, Bank of America several 100 thousands of jobs ...

      You lot cry for mere hundreds ?

      Brexit means Brexit means any industry that exports to EU (80% of British exports) will move to EU-land.

      UK-based Rolls-Royce Holdings (aviation engines) can barely compete with CFM, Pratt&Whitney, and GE with EU-based airliners, let alone third countries airlines, how are they gonna cope with tariffs ?

      Us Brits are totally deluded if we think we can survive one minute with 80% of our exports, half of our lucrative banking sector gone to EU-land. It is that serious, Airbus, BMW, and Honda have only come forward now because they did not want to impede the negotiation, but the utterly DELUDED government left them no choice .... you think Airbus, BMW, Honda, etc, etc, etc are happy to have to move their factories onto the continent ? No, but without customs union, that "simply will have to happen".

      Now you are gonna blame the EU, the commission, the European Parliament, the deluded British PM ....

      With Brexit, the UK has no leg to stand on. Brexit means the UK's economy will be worse off than any African economy one can think of ... because you have high wages, no industry, no services no nothing left - guess what, takes an expert to predict that, but experts, who needs experts, we have our national Nigel Farrage, who kepot claiming "Don't listen to experts" - he will make it happen ...

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

      2. Polardog

        Re: Brexit means Brexit

        80% of British exports go to the EU?

        Rubbish, total fabrication.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Brexit means Brexit

          I upvoted, because I took it for sarcasm (or clickbait). If meant as genuine comment, sorry folks. I would hope ALL commentars have got at least 5/10 level of sarcasm on the scales measured, when registered, but...

      3. Polardog

        Re: Brexit means Brexit

        https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmfaff/writev/commonwealth/com04.htm

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Brexit means Brexit

          > https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmfaff/writev/commonwealth/com04.htm

          The only mention of 80% in that, is this line:

          "An overwhelming proportion of the world’s GDP growth between 2003 & 2050 – nearly 80 per cent – will occur outside of Europe, the United States and Canada."

          Doesn't seem relevant?

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Brexit means Brexit

        you forgot all those Japanese car manufacturers, who settled in the UK just because they love and respect the ex-empire so much so they wanted to give us a helping hand and employed thousands in those job-stricken parts of the UK.

    5. Only me!
      Meh

      Re: Brexit means Brexit

      May be it does.....but the EU expect the UK to pay for all the projects they were involved with., so the Eu gets it.....this we pay and get nothing? Leave is leave, but to me leave is take what you paid for.......stay in you keep what you paid for and what you will pay for........mmmm

    6. gypsythief

      Re: Brexit means Brexit

      Who would have thought that becoming a third country

      Who would have thought that becoming a third world country...

      FTFY

      Personally I'm dreading the 10 year recession followed by an irrelevant economy more than the lack of access to Gallileo...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Brexit means Brexit

        Personally I'm dreading the 10 year recession followed by an irrelevant economy more than the lack of access to Gallileo...

        Well, better leave the EU before it happens, then!

  2. codejunky Silver badge

    Fgs

    Why do we need to make one? The EU want one as they try to appear important or something and not relying on the US one yadda yadda etc. Yes there would be some amusement to put our own up around the same time as their heavily delayed and expensive vanity project but how is it better to send up own own expensive vanity project?

    There would be more value to giving that money back to the economy (reduce tax) and running the country while the EU ignores its crises. If politicians really want to get one over the EU we dont need to make our own satellite system we just need to leave the EU.

    And all of this is over fears of hundreds of jobs. How does that move the needle in an economy with full employment and if remain is to believed foreigners leaving the country (either as minimum wage labour or successful and highly contributing depending on the portrayal).

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: Fgs

      How could tax be reduced by not having our own GPS system? This is a new big toy which requires new money.

      The UK could lose 100 here, 14,000 there at Airbus, 100,000 jobs supporting the 14,000, then the car industry and replace it with full employment of Deliveroo drivers but I don't think that'll get the tax receipts back up to where they were, or help the deficit.

      1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

        Re: Fgs

        The UK could lose 100 here, 14,000 there at Airbus, 100,000 jobs supporting the 14,000

        "could" being the word here. The UK is the 8th largest manufacturing economy in the world, it's sad to see people who think that they only way we can create jobs is by waiting from crumbs from the EU's table. With pessimism like that at home we'll be screwed with or without Brexit.

        1. Dan 55 Silver badge

          Re: Fgs

          it's sad to see people who think that they only way we can create jobs is by waiting from crumbs from the EU's table.

          Who's talking about waiting for crumbs from the EU's table (is Airbus is part of the EU?). If you cast your mind back to the news from yesterday, industry has said jobs will be jeopardised if the UK does not stay in the single market and customs union or have some kind of hitherto unknown agreement which looks and works exactly the same yet somehow isn't.

          1. Domquark

            Re: Fgs

            "is Airbus is part of the EU?"

            Sort of, yes. Airbus's majority shareholder is the French Government at 11.1%. Gesellschaft zur Beteiligungsverwaltung is also a major shareholder (11%) and associated with the German Government. So anything the French and German Governments say, Airbus will do.

        2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Fgs

          "The UK is the 8th largest manufacturing economy in the world"

          Currently. But to what extent does that depend on being a member of the EU? Once we aren't in the EU then that component, whether you measure it in jobs or contribution to GDP will be lost. Not necessarily immediately but eventually.

          I assume the Brexit theory is that all that will be replaced and more from the RoTW. Even if it is (a dubious proposition) how long does the theory calculate that will take as opposed to how long it takes the losses to occur?

          1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

            Re: Fgs

            I assume the Brexit theory is that all that will be replaced and more from the RoTW. Even if it is (a dubious proposition)

            Why so? There are 27 other countries in the EU, most smaller than the UK, but 170+ in the RoTW. While many of those 170 are tiny with no money there are plenty which are big enough to be good trade partners.

            You're right, there is a lot we don't know about how things will play out when we're outside the EU, but frankly I'll take my chances on that. I think that staying in the EU and hoping everything will come up roses is an even more dubious proposition, and we have historical evidence to rely on for that.

            I do find it saddening that so many people refuse to even consider that there could be a better future, and are happy to leave everything in the hands of someone else. It's almost a religious attitude, "God (or the EU) will provide, we should be grateful for what we get".

            Sorry, but I don't believe in a benevolent God, nor in a benevolent EU.

            1. Adair Silver badge

              Re: Fgs

              'I do find it saddening that so many people refuse to even consider that there could be a better future, and are happy to leave everything in the hands of someone else. It's almost a religious attitude' - that may be what you think, but back in reality the vast majority of 'Remainers' harbour no such delusions, they are simply aghast at the stupidity of 'Brexit'.

              'Brexit' - how to leave something functionally useful without a plan, without a clue, and without sufficient support to make it viable without years of backbiting, recrimination, undermining and sullen refusal to co-operate.

              'Brexit' is an object lesson in how not to leave a massive trading bloc in which one has been intricately entwined and involved in running (for some divisive insubstantial nostalgic self-serving dream).

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