Seriously, guys?
Cryptocurrency? Facebook account? Own up, who's let the body snatchers into El Req HQ.
This article has been removed Geeks Guide book on coffee table, photo The_Register
Just beat me to it - was going to invest,then read what you had to do and..... sighed.
I understand that money must and should be made here but can we please just be able to buy it with, y'know, actual money? Jumping through pointless hoops to get simple things done with tech is what many of us get paid for, it's not nice to have to do this for.leisuretime enjoyment This is pointless irritating geekdom, the book is celebrating wonderful historic geekdom.
It's not pointless hoops. It enables you to do something that wasn't possible before: Buy as little as one article for the equivalent of only £0.24. This wouldn't be possible with credit cards or Paypal because it would cost The Reg more than what they're getting from one sale.
Charge up your wallet with, y'know, actual money, just like your Oyster card, and that's all you need to worry about! :-)
> If I need to confirm I've received my Scorchiocoin™, what's wrong with clicking link sent through e-mail?
How many email addresses do you have? How many *could* you have?
Stellar is giving away free Lumens, basically free money, but they'd like to limit it to one grant per person. The Facebook verification is their way to try and minimize fraudsters spinning up 1000 email accounts and leeching the pot dry for everyone else.
Multiple addresses?
Of course we all have multiple e-mail addresses. Probably thousands. This is El Reg. We own our own domains.
But, and this is important, although most of us avoid FB like the plague for personal use, sometimes we need to set up an account as part of a client project. At the last count I had six FB accounts, all dodgy and full of fake info.
You do not need to worry about cryptocurrency and you do not need a Facebook account.
We (SatoshiPay, the payment provider) use a cryptocurrency under the hood to enable you to buy as little as one article for the equivalent of only £0.24. This wouldn't be possible with traditional payment methods, as merchant fees for credit cards, Paypal etc. would cost The Reg more than what they're getting from one sale.
But you can top up your wallet with those traditional methods and think of it as buying credits, points, miles - whatever you wanna call it. Ever played online games and paid for in-game credits? Charged up an Oyster card? Prepaid phone minutes? Same concept. You never have to think about the crypto parts working in the background.
And no, you don't need Facebook. Stellar is giving away some credits, called Lumens, for free. Only if you want in on the free Lumens, Stellar is asking for your Facebook account to prevent fraud. If you buy Lumens the regular way or get them elsewhere - no Facebook involved!
"We (SatoshiPay, the payment provider) use a cryptocurrency under the hood...
You never have to think about the crypto parts working in the background"
So what you're saying is it's a black box implementation that requires us to trust you? What value are the "crypto parts" adding then?
"Buy as little as one article for the equivalent of only £0.24"
Can I actually buy one article for 24p, because all I'm seeing is a button to buy 20 magic beans for about six quid. Six quid is not 24p.
> So what you're saying is it's a black box implementation that requires us to trust you?
No, unlike Paypal or your bank, you don't have to trust us. You can independently verify. As with most cryptocurrencies, you can (and should!) backup your private key that controls your funds from the SatoshiPay browser wallet. No one else, not even SatoshiPay, has access to that key. It's yours and yours alone. You could import it elsewhere. And you can look up the value stored on it on any third-party explorer.
Try that with Paypal. How do you know they actually have your funds? THAT is a true "black box implementation that requires us to trust [them]".
> Can I actually buy one article for 24p, because all I'm seeing is a button to buy 20 magic beans for about six quid. Six quid is not 24p.
Through our system, the minimum top-up is 20 lumens (credits). For that amount, we eat the credit card or Paypal processing fees. You could get lumens on exchanges like Kraken where you could indeed exchange as little as one. But you would have to set up a separate account with them, go through their KYC ID verification and fund the account through a bank transfer. Most exchanges also charge a trading fee.
Once you have a couple lumens, whether from us, from an exchange, from a friend or from the Stellar giveaway, you can spend them one by one on publishers that use our system.
We think buying a pack of 20 with a simple credit card charge is worth the convenience of avoiding these extra steps, but the choice is yours!
"No, unlike Paypal or your bank, you don't have to trust us...."
Well, I do. I've got to trust you're not going to just leg it with my cash. I've got to trust you're not doing anything dodgy with it. I've got to trust you're paying the vendors as promised. I've got to trust your little JavaScript widget isn't doing anything nefarious or insecure. I've got to trust your blockchain has been properly implemented. I've got to trust the keys are being appropriately handled. I've got to trust you're not going to be eliminated by the inevitable regulation of alternative currencies. I've got to trust you're not going to hike all your prices. I've got to trust you're never going to be hijacked. I've got to trust your blockchain is never going to collapse under the volume of transactions.
At the end of the day you could just use a database for all of that and for either myself as the customer and el reg as the publisher, absolutely nothing at all would change. I suspect like many here I'd actually trust you more if you were doing that, because anything "crypto" has the distinct whiff of snake oil about it.
"but the choice is yours!"
Let's put it this way chap. If I were you I wouldn't be betting my house on it.
> I've got to trust you're not going to just leg it with my cash.
No, you don't. Your "cash" in the form of lumens is controlled by a private key. This key sits in your browser's local storage. We can't get to it, we can't leg it with it. BTW, that's also why it's so important to backup. YOU are in charge. If you lose your key, we can't recover it for you.
> I've got to trust you're not doing anything dodgy with it.
No, if we can't get to your cash / lumens, we can't do anything dodgy with it.
> I've got to trust you're paying the vendors as promised.
No. You can see all transactions live on any explorer you choose. Buy an article here, go e.g. to https://steexp.com/ and you can immediately see how your payment arrived at El Reg's wallet.
> I've got to trust your little JavaScript widget isn't doing anything nefarious or insecure.
No, you don't have to trust. JS is open source, you can inspect our code any time. Of course, realistically, most people are not going to invest the time for a couple p at stake, maybe you won't, but YOU COULD. Keep in mind though that you get JS served left and right as you browse around the web. If you're really concerned about nefarious or insecure scripts, turn JS off, but you'll have to live without most forms of modern e-commerce, online entertainment and productivity tools.
> I've got to trust your blockchain has been properly implemented.
It's not our blockchain. We use the Stellar blockchain. It's the 8th-largest in the world today and has been around since 2014 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_(payment_network) We've done an extensive evaluation when we switched our backend from Bitcoin to Stellar last year and feel confident about its implementation. It is all open-source, and again, you don't have to trust, you can verify. Many devs who work with Stellar have.
And how do you know the Paypal backend has been properly implemented?
> I've got to trust the keys are being appropriately handled.
Again, the keys sit in your local storage. They are handled by your browser. Feel free to check. No trust required.
> I've got to trust you're not going to be eliminated by the inevitable regulation of alternative currencies.
As you can imagine, we've been working closely with lawyers and regulators to ensure we're fully compliant. But sure, nobody can foresee future laws. However, how much is at stake here? A few p? A couple quid? Laws don't change over night. In the unlikely event that new regulations were announced that make our business infeasible, you'd have enough time to spend or withdraw your credit.
> I've got to trust you're not going to hike all your prices.
Prices are set by the vendor, in this case El Reg, not us. We just facilitate the payments.
> I've got to trust you're never going to be hijacked.
Again, your funds live ONLY on your own computer. If we get hijacked, it has no effect on your money. You might not be able to buy content from our publisher network anymore, but with your private key, you could withdraw your funds to another wallet. You won't lose anything.
> I've got to trust your blockchain is never going to collapse under the volume of transactions.
See above. Very unlikey. Unlike Bitcoin, Stellar scales extremely well. That was one of the main criteria in our evaluation.
> At the end of the day you could just use a database for all of that and for either myself as the customer and el reg as the publisher, absolutely nothing at all would change.
If you read my above responses, it should be clear what the difference is. With a central database, you would indeed have to trust us with all the points you mentioned. With our system, you don't. You are in charge of your own money.
>Your "cash" in the form of lumens is controlled by a private key.
And before that my "cash" in the form of "cash" is sat in your bank account. You're a young upstart firm. How do I know it's not going to go the way of Carillion in the morning? The answer is trust.
>If you're really concerned about nefarious or insecure scripts, turn JS off, but you'll have to live without most forms of modern e-commerce, online entertainment and productivity tools.
Oh, you really don't know your audience, do you?
>It's not our blockchain.
Fine, *their* blockchain. I'm not a crypto expert. Almost no one is. I lack the competence to verify either its theory or function. I have to trust it.
>And how do you know the Paypal backend has been properly implemented?
I don't. I trust them.
>Prices are set by the vendor
I meant your cut. Currently 10%, right? Which is nice. But you're not going to build a business on 10% of 24p, and we both know that.
>your funds live ONLY on your own computer
Except for the times when you're taking my money or when you're (presumably) paying out in cash or when your little widget is doing its thing to sling funds between me and you. Again, I'm *trusting* that this is all happening correctly.
>Very unlikey.
So say you. Again, I'm *trusting* that all this new fangled Lightning lark is enough to scale Stellar to practical transaction throughput, rather than the hilariously pedestrian rates we currently see.
Please, please, please don't try and pretend blockchains (or distributed consensus protocols or whatever we're calling them this week) are a silver bullet that mean I don't have to trust you. It makes the whole venture look starry eyed and foolish. Blockchains change precisely one thing in the transaction and that's granting external verification of the transaction, which isn't even something many people want. Most people prefer their shopping history to be private, not public.
When you buy a pair of shoes, you get the shoes and the vendor gets your money. "Your" money then sits on the vendor's bank account but it's not your money anymore, it's the vendor's. You have the shoes. Why would you still worry about the money in the vendor's bank account?
I won't comment on business agreements with the Reg or other publishers, but I'm sure you understand it's a volume game. Either way, what does it matter to you as an end user what the terms are between us and El Reg? When you top up your mobile phone at the corner store, do you also enquire about the commission the store gets from the phone company? When you pay anything by credit card, do you always ask how much the processing fee is for the vendor?
Cryptocurrencies are not a silver bullet, but they enable things that wouldn't be possible otherwise. Buying individual articles for a few p, for example. Or us not having to maintain a central database loaded with monetary value that could be hacked. Or El Reg getting paid immediately from each purchase instead of once at the end of the month or week.
Ideally, we wouldn't even advertise the use of cryptocurrency in the background. It should just be "Buy a few publisher credits and redeem for content from these great publications." But if you're uncomfortable, don't use our system. I'm sure you'll hear about more cryptocurrency use cases though, perhaps you'll change your mind some day.
"All it takes are some Lumens – which can you can purchase via quick credit card or PayPal transaction from SatoshiPay – and a SatoshiPay wallet that is generated for you, on the fly."
Errr... NO!
Not only have I never heard of this particular scamcoin but I wouldn't buy them if I had. Plus there's apparently a Facebook requirement?!? WTF? Do you read your own articles? I do not now, nor have I ever had an account on Facebook and any product or website that requires it is banned in my house.
If you've never heard of it, how did you determine it's a scamcoin?
And no, you don't need Facebook. Stellar is giving away some quite un-scammy credits, called Lumens, for free. Only if you want in on the free Lumens, Stellar is asking for your Facebook account to minimize double-dipping. If you buy Lumens the regular way or get them elsewhere - no Facebook involved!
But for fans of "Elvis working in a burger-bar" type theories, it could just be a cunning bit of research by El Reg, to see how many of us will succumb. They've priced the paperback so high that no-one will buy it, but many of us would like it. So, how far will we go? Will we invest a squid or two in a previously unheard-of crypto currency (I like the fake 'market price' site.). Will we go a step further and set up a FB account to get it for free?
We're just lab rats to the mekons at El Reg Towers!
It doesn't require "using" cryptocurrency (in the sense that you have to do anything special) and you do not need Facebook.
We (SatoshiPay, the payment partner) use a cryptocurrency under the hood to enable you to buy as little as one article for the equivalent of only £0.24. This wouldn't be possible with traditional payment methods, as merchant fees for credit cards, Paypal etc. would cost the Reg more than what they're getting from one sale. As far as we're concerned, the fact that a cryptocurrency provides the plumbing, shouldn't even be advertised, but I guess the Reg wanted to explain how it works to a tech-savvy audience.
You can top up your wallet with those traditional methods and think of it as buying credits, points, miles - whatever you wanna call it. Ever played online games and paid for in-game credits? Charged up an Oyster card? Prepaid phone minutes? Same concept. You never have to think about the crypto parts working in the background.
And no, you don't need Facebook. Stellar is giving away some credits, called Lumens, for free. Only if you want in on the free Lumens, Stellar is asking for your Facebook account to minimize double-dipping. But since you said you're happy to pay for it, just buy the Lumens - no Facebook involved!
Through our system the minimum top-up is 20 lumens (credits) or about £4.70 as of today. For that amount, we eat the credit card or Paypal processing fees. You could get lumens on exchanges like Kraken where you could indeed exchange as little as one. But you would have to set up a separate account with them and go through their KYC ID verification and fund the account through a bank transfer. Most exchanges also charge a trading fee.
We think buying a pack of 20 with a simple credit card charge is worth the convenience of avoiding these extra steps, but the choice is yours!
Sven: Whilst I admire your persistence in responding to so many El Reg commentards being up in arms about this. I will also point out that your responses have just ruined my ongoing game of bullsh1t bingo, resulting in everyone getting a "house" call off a single El Reg article.
Seriously though, it seems you might end up winning a lifetime achievement award in the "Rube Goldberg Award for most Convoluted Payment Systems".
"SDF accesses your User ID (anonymised), name, last nam, email, current city and photos."
WTF do you need anything other than my name? Photos - really????
Go see what happened to Joan of Arc when she tried trickery like this - https://www.cartoonstock.com/cartoonview.asp?catref=ctan44
The Stellar Foundation is using Facebook as a way to minimize double- / triple- / 100-dipping on their free lumen giveaway. I don't really know the details of their system, but I assume they check to see if it's an active account that looks like a real person with friends, posts, pictures etc. Otherwise, it'd be easy to spin up 1000 new FB accounts with throwaway email addresses.
Up there it would apparently be easy to spin up 1000 e-mail addresses so a Facebook account is needed. Now down here it's apparently easy to spin up 1000 Facebook accounts so your photo album is needed.
It's stunts like this that brought about GDPR in the first place.