UPnP joins the 'just turn it off on consumer devices, already' club

Re: Doctor, where have you been all this time ?

"Applications that needed to accept connections from the outside would probably include instructions in how to place your PC in the DMZ and disable its internal firewall."

And no such novice computer user has any programs that require that.

That's exactly my point.

Unless you are expecting to be a host server for something, you don't need to bypass NAT at all. Even SIP etc. will work inside NAT and that's a horrible protocol.

Re: Doctor, where have you been all this time ?

That's what Skype does. P2P programs also try this but note that this is suboptimal because you have to rely on a Trent to get you hooked up, and can you trust Trent? Without UPnP or the ability to port forward, you cannot host.

Re: another lesson

Your phone is not a server. If you nmap it, it likely has zero ports open unless you turn on Wifi hotspot functionality.

Your Playstation is neither (though if it claims that peer-to-peer network requires a port forward because some games producers are cheap and won't run matchmaking servers).

Your DVR may well be. But only if it's not capable of talking out to a central server which acts a proxy like most DVRs do for their mobile apps. Hint: Have you seen the stories for the last 5 years about how insecure DVRs are, the article on BBC News yesterday about the guy who had a DVR open to the world and didn't know, etc.? There's a reason we don't let ordinary people run servers).

Your lightbulb - if you're stupid enough to have networked lightbulbs - I'd hope they only operate internally on your Wifi, but if not then see the DVR answer.

Sorry, but nothing you have REQUIRES a port-forward, unless you are providing an actual service. Running a web server. Running an email server. Running a games server (not just playing games online on other people's servers). All of which require more care about how you do so than the average person can ever give them, which is why we put people behind NAT on home routers.

And if you're doing those things, you want well-known port-number statically entered, the server running all day long, and for it to be advertised to the world. UPnP is not the answer.

I literally turn off UPnP on all devices. Not one person has ever complained, even the couple who brought their XBox 360 to my house and connected it to play multiplayer online. Everything that "needs" port-forwarding doesn't. Unless you are trying to run a server from your home connection and thereby exposing yourself to much worse than anything UPnP can do to you anyway.

Re: UPnP - insecure out of the box

"Tempting, very tempting. How about a reverse walled garden approach where those without a license are locked into a small subset like only facebook and twitter or something?"

Obligatory car analogy

This all reminds me a little of self-driving cars and the road network. People who can't drive are not allowed on the roads but self-driving cars might one day allow people who can't drive out there. uPNP is the self driving car of the internet "superhighway" that allows non-"drivers" out there because it takes away the complications so they don't need to learn to "drive". The downside is that uPNP doesn't put lives at risk so anyone can create their own shitty implementation with no come-back when it fails.

Re: Now, home boxes, that's a different matter.

So IOW, you want people to have a license to use the Internet, even if they start complaining to the help desks, tying them up.

Re: Now, home boxes, that's a different matter.

Your choice of words is appropriate. They *won't* know a port *when* it pwns them. If your game needs to allow anyone, anywhere, sight unseen, to access your network then you need a new game. People need to learn that the easy way (from us) rather than the hard way (from their bank).

Many games use P2P multiplayer. Someone somewhere's got to open a port.

Re: USB cables without data connections

I have a couple myself. Two mini usb connectors that won't connect a device. Thought they were faulty until I (accidentally) discovered they work fine for charging, and 2 micro USB, one from Jabra, the other from (of all people) Samsung, which have big friendly stickers hanging off them saying 'For Charging Only'. I've verified that by finding myself out in the bush and having to fire a WiFi hotspot up to move stuff between my phone and a notebook.

Re: USB cables

I don't think I've ever seen one myself either.

I don't know why not. Best Buy sells them. Hell, my local supermarket sells them. They're right next to the other USB cables, and they say "charging only", and they're generally cheaper than the regular (data-carrying) cables. These days, they probably have some sort of security waffle on the packaging too.