back to article Microsoft programming chief to devs: Tell us where Windows hurt you

"We're going to reinvigorate Windows desktop development," claimed Julia Liuson, Microsoft's corporate VP responsible for developer tools and programming languages. This is one of five missions on her mind, she told The Reg, another is "Visual Studio Live Share going public. We think that will transform how teams interact and …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "We want to ask developers, what is your pain point"

    .NET and all the cruft built on it.

    Let us developing using the native OS APIs, thank you, Far better responsive applications, faster to start, faster to work with, far more powerful. You copied Java, and you got a copy of Java, with all its defects. There's a reason why Java on the desktop went almost nowhere - actually only IDEs are common Java desktop applications.

    1. HmmmYes

      Re: "We want to ask developers, what is your pain point"

      No, they did a bad copy of Java. And got an even worse product.

      How about an easy way, consisent to embed and probe versions numbers of everything present on a machine?

      Why the fuck does everything have to be bloated. Went ti update powershell - a fucking command shell. 500M download.

      1. Alan Bourke

        Re: "We want to ask developers, what is your pain point"

        > Went ti update powershell - a fucking command shell. 500M download.

        Well then it updated a load more than PowerShell. PowerShell 4 is part of the Windows Management Framework download, and that's under 50MB even with everything included.

        1. HmmmYes

          Re: "We want to ask developers, what is your pain point"

          Version 6 now... keep up at the back.

      2. Concrete Gannet

        Re: "We want to ask developers, what is your pain point"

        "How about an easy way, consistent to embed and probe versions numbers of everything present on a machine?"

        There is such a thing. You can use a Windows Management Instrumentation (WMI) query to discover what has been installed. If some piece of software isn't found by that, the vendor is not following Microsoft's guidelines and it's more their fault than Microsoft's.

        This thread might be useful: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/673233/wmi-installed-query-different-from-add-remove-programs-list

    2. JohnFen

      Re: "We want to ask developers, what is your pain point"

      " actually only IDEs are common Java desktop applications."

      And I really wish they weren't. Java applications, even the "good" ones, simply suck in comparison to native applications.

    3. Daniel von Asmuth

      Re: "We want to ask developers, what is your pain point"

      Let's start with the funky memory models of PC-DOS (and 16-bit Windows). Then we mention the TSR applications of DOS and the 'cooperative multi-tasking' of 16-bit Windows. Visual Basic gets an unhonorary mention, together with GUIs in general. Did you notice that Windows is so bad they keep changing the GUI with every release?

      It's not that 640 KB was a whole lof of RAM, Microsoft abused it to turn MS-DOS into a bloated feature-overflowing monster. ...and that was before they created all those other buggy incompatible documented APIs, which keep you searching for some documentation. ...where old source code needs updating for every new version. Did we mention that you cannot find the OS sources anywhere, let alone fix them? That you cannot even peruse www.microsoft.com with their own Internet Explorer 2.0 (and maybe not even version 6.0).

      Windows is expensive, slow, bloated and insecure, but more importantly it lacks stability - the infamous Blue Screen Of Death. Finally, only a handful of elite companies are eligible for technical support, that the rest of us cannot afford.

    4. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: "We want to ask developers, what is your pain point"

      "Let us develop using the native OS APIs, thank you"

      Welcome Aboard! (see icon)

      Now, admittedly I'd like to see an MFC-like cross-platform toolkit, where I could develop for this toolkit and easily compile/run on X11, OSX, or Windows, with the SAME SOURCE.

      Oh, wait, there *IS* one! But yeah, it needs a bit more support with respect to tools, etc. from what I've seen.

      MS: if you can "get on board" with what wxWidgets does, maybe devs will like you more? Just STOP IT with the C-pound-only, ".Not"-only, UWP-only, "spinning compass" directionless NONSENSE. Stick with one thing, make it better, make it cross-platform (and NO slurpware/adware built-in).

  2. HmmmYes

    Oh thats easy.

    A simple, scalable built tool.

    VS is OK for one person building one thing.

    Not visual studio - I need to build moe than one applictiion - several libraries and 20 odd applications.

    nmake is shit. Does not work with powershell.

    msbuild is XML junk. And shit.

    1. Diogenes

      I like to pull wings off butterflies /sarc

      VS is OK for one person building one thing.

      I say amen unto you brother. Try it in a school environment where more than 1 kid uses a computer (Androids Studio sucks majorly in this area as well - disclaimer I haven't tried any of the v3 stuff)

      Heading refers to torturing students with industry leading software :-)

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Whats the pain points?

    Changing their minds every few years?

    I thought PWA's were their thing this week?

    1. Shadow Systems

      Re: Whats the pain points?

      This. A trillion times this.

      If you try to write a program for Windows' currently touted pseudo-long-term framework, you'll be fekkin' lucky if they don't kill support for it before you've even finished debuggin' the damned thing.

      I'm not even a programmer & I've lost count of the number of times MS has changed their minds in mid breath, radically changed course, & left folks in the lurch.

      MS claims it wants to ensure backwards compatability, but the 32bit world is still the largest pool to fish from & Win10 is supposed to be dropping support for it. Universal? Only if you're running Win10; it doesn't work on Win7 & only runs on Win8 if you've allowed it to become infested with Win10 cancer.

      Dear MS, you want the pain points? Sit down, shut up, & be prepared to listen for a few DECADES worth of examples of MS fucking over the folks that try to write for Windows. Take notes. Take LOTS of notes.

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: Whats the pain points?

        >Take notes. Take LOTS of notes.

        Then commit to getting a knowledgeable developer to respond to each and every point made.

      2. Someone Else Silver badge

        Re: Whats the pain points?

        Take notes. Take LOTS of notes.

        They took Notes...and fucked it up good. Multiple times. Remember the old saying (paraphrasing): "Windows ain't done until Notes doesn't work" (It's been a long time, and I'm tired....)

    2. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Mushroom

      Re: Whats the pain points?

      "Changing their minds every few years?"

      More like "Changing their minds every few WEEKS". It's impossible to navigate while the compass is spinning. It's even worse when the compass leads us OVER THE CLIFF!

      pain points: ".Not", C-pound, MFC/runtime "shared lib" by default, ".Not" dependency by default, manifests required in EXE's now, "code signage" requirements for drivers [aka TOLLBOOTH], UWP, "the Store", 2D FLATSO UI, *spyware*, *adware*, "change for the sake of change", FORCED UPDATES, "online only" MSDN documentation, Win 7 (effectively) not *purchasable* any more, subscription models for office [and we know its coming, THE OPERATING SYSTEM], and...

      CUSTOMERS TREATED LIKE MOOKS / MINIONS / MASSES / EXPLOITABLES!!!

      Micro-shaft - are you PAYING ATTENTION? Past experience suggests NO. (and you wonder WHY you don't know what the customer wants any more!)

  4. Woza

    Pain points, you say?

    It's been a while since I tried, but do they support C99 yet - particularly designated initialisers? It's only been 19 years.

    1. Hjulenissen

      Re: Pain points, you say?

      No, they are still at C89.

      Causes me endless pain in crossplatform code.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Pain points, you say?

        Causes me endless pain in crossplatform code.

        Use a better IDE+Compiler, like the rest of us.

    2. Ken Hagan Gold badge

      Re: Pain points, you say?

      Their official position is that they don't offer a C compiler, for any version of the language. If your C code happens to go through their C++ compiler, that's a bonus.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Pain points, you say?

        "If your C code happens to go through their C++ compiler, that's a bonus."

        If your C++ code goes through their C++ compiler thats a bonus too. Its hardly up to date wrt standards.

        Its times like this I'm glad I stuck with unix development. gcc, vim, gdb, strace and make - they just work and I can get on with developing applications, not learn a new fucking IDE or API every year to do the same thing as I could do with the old one that some PHB decided to deprecate or some goofy interface "designer" thought he would "improve" by randomly shuffling everything around and renaming stuff.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    They've been asleep for 6 years lol.

  6. }{amis}{
    Flame

    Noooooooooooooooooooooo.......

    Not more XMAL kill it with fire and give me something that doesn't take 4 hours to make small formatting changes in.

    Seriously I maintain 2 .net apps one is an awful automated port of an old vb6 app and the over is a WPF app with a modern DI framework.

    Even with the spaghetti-code mess that is the super legacy vb code, I still get stuff done faster in there as I don't have to faff around with the shoddy XMAL language and its lack of documentation.

    1. tiggity Silver badge

      Re: Noooooooooooooooooooooo.......

      @ }{amis}{

      Indeed, that is why (Despite MS wanting to kill it) WinForms lives on.

      Its fast to change things - and with the ludicrous timescales pointy headed bosses demand in software, the quick to market tools are popular.

      I have some superbly elegant MVVM pattern apps - however it always takes me ages to do even minor changes (even thoooough its my own code) compared to legacy quick 'n' dirty winforms code

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Noooooooooooooooooooooo.......

        You might want to try GTK#.

  7. Jemma

    Tell us...

    On this user experience person, with this claw hammer, where Windows hurt you...

    I'm honestly not sure whether that woman's biological age or her IQ is the smaller figure - but if that's all they can find as a VP and potential inspiration for people to buy/trust MS products... Then it's game over man..

    She looks like a 13 year old in a business suit. I'm reminded of the memorable cover of "fire" by the Paedofinder General..

    "She's 31, works in accounts; She looks like 12 and that's what counts!"

    1. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

      Re: Tell us...

      Misogynistic bollocks.

      She will be in her 30s at the very least, and her IQ will be at least 70 points above yours.

      1. HmmmYes

        Re: Tell us...

        Well ... if either of you bothered to google her, you would have found her wikipedia entry:

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_Liuson

        which must have been written by her. I really hope MS dont have people who write wikipedia entries for all their senior staff ...

        Anyhow, youll see shes 48 and has worked at MS since she graduated in 91.

        So, in answer to her question - 'Where have we fucked up?'

        My response would be - 'You tell me. Youve worked there long enough''

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          You tell me. Youve worked there long enough

          Exactly!

          If they haven't noticed our "pain points" by now, then there's no chance of any positive changes.

          Now that I've moved away from Windows, my pain points with development no longer exist.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Tell us...

          I really hope MS dont have people who write wikipedia entries for all their senior staff

          Of course they do!

          And Microsoft are renowned for astroturfing, too.

      2. Jemma

        Re: Tell us...

        Possibly but I doubt it, mines somewhere between 135 and 150 depending on the tests used, like most people I'm better in some areas than others. And she works for Microsoft in senior PHB territory.. The only company I'd refuse to work for faster would be BMW or possibly BT. I've worked in the NHS and I'd go back there before I'd take employment with MS.

        Let me put it this way - she doesn't inspire me with confidence - still neither does anything that MS does any more - they've stumbled from disaster to disaster for years, mobile they make a door nail look positively energetic, and for most of their products you can either get a better alternative or a free alternative which may well be better.

        1. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

          Re: Tell us...

          "mines somewhere between 135 and 150"

          I think you mean that it measured that some 20+ years, and countless pints, ago.

        2. JohnFen

          Re: Tell us...

          "mines somewhere between 135 and 150"

          First, I don't believe you. 135-150 is too enormous of a range to make sense. But rather than call you a liar, I'll just say that I have very serious doubt about the legitimacy of the tests that you took.

          Second, IQ scores mean very little in terms of measuring overall intelligence.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Tell us...

          > "...mines somewhere between 135 and 150 "

          It's really not coming across like that.

        4. bombastic bob Silver badge

          Re: Tell us...

          IQ of 135 to 150 would be average in the IT world. nothing to brag about, really.

          yes, it is an amazing realization to consider that the people you normally deal with at work, versus "the rest of the population", have that much of a gap in IQ. "Average IQ" is 100. That means there are as many people BELOW 100 as there are above it. Fortunately I don't have to deal with people that have "below 100" IQ very often [I think most of them have gummint jobs].

          I wonder what 'median IQ' would be, though... that might say a LOT.

      3. a_yank_lurker

        Re: Tell us...

        Still less than 0.

    2. JohnFen

      Re: Tell us...

      Ad hominem attacks do nothing but weaken any legitimate criticisms or disagreements that you may have.

    3. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
      Joke

      Re: Tell us...

      She looks like a 13 year old in a business suit.

      She could be a 13yr old in a business suit. It's not just Policemen who look younger these days.

      A Doogie Howser of Software Development

  8. DaveH77

    Target OS

    UWP "islands" are cool and all that but are of no use to me or my customers.

    I needs to be able to ship to Win7 and Win8 and UWP islands will still (I believe) require Win10...

  9. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
    Windows

    No

    "We believe every developer will become an AI developer. You don't need to learn new programming languages."

    Most developers can't even do a single programming language nor find their own arse in the bright light of faddish, incidental, consultancy-enabling complexity. What should they do with AI?

    Pain Point #1: Get rid of all the Windows in the enterprise and replace with manageable, understandable, staid Unix machinery. The decision makers of the battling Unix Consortia of the early 90s should get the shark tank treatment for that.

    Pain Point #2: Uncloud all applications.

    Pain Point #3: XFCE-level of GUI should be enough for everyone.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Terminator

      Re: No

      "Most developers can't ... find their own arse... What should they do with AI?"

      Let it help them, teach them, and at the same time - learn from them...

      Eventually they will find that although they need it, it won't need them.

      Game over for such developers then.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: No

        So you don't know anything about the state of AI then?

  10. minnsey231

    Well I'm an optimist

    Not much love on the comments today, but as someone using .NET, WPF and Visual Studio every day I'm pretty optimistic about the future for .NET Core/Standard.

    Its been a bumpy couple of years as they've built it all out fast in public (kudos for that) but we seem to be reaching a tipping point and the stability, interoperability, project structure etc all seems to be settling down.

    If nothing else Xamarin.Forms will provide a cross platform GUI very soon including, UWP, WPF, macOS, Tizen and Visual Studio is still the best IDE out there.

    1. JohnFen

      Re: Well I'm an optimist

      "Visual Studio is still the best IDE out there."

      I use a number of different IDEs (and non-integrated development environments) on a daily basis, and I can honestly say that Visual Studio is the most painful of them all. It's the only one that I curse at.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Well I'm an optimist

        You should try xcode and android studio sometime. Then you'll understand pain and learn how to curse like a pro.

      2. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
        Unhappy

        Re: Well I'm an optimist

        @JohnFen

        "Visual Studio is still the best IDE out there."

        Microsoft's Programmer's WorkBench - from the pre-feature bloat days - after that I've struggled to get to grips with every version of VS - admittedly I don't need to use it regularly, and that means I try to muddle along without RTFM

        1. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Devil

          Re: Well I'm an optimist

          PWB and Visual Studio

          I remember PWB. I kinda liked it. I also liked VS 98, where you could EDIT A DIALOG BOX OR USE THE CLASS WIZARD WITHOUT EVER TOUCHING THE MOUSE!

          (I'd love to have a LINUX version of PWB, actually! using CURSES!)

          Regarding Visual Studio: Once it went to "lift hand from keyboard, mousie, clickie, mousie, clickie, find home row again, type, lift hand from keyboard, rinse/repeat" I stopped LIKING it. when it went to 2D FLATSO (2013 I think) I *STARTED* *HATING* *IT*!!!

          2010 is the LAST visual studio I'll evar use... and I rarely use it!

    2. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Meh

      Re: Well I'm an optimist

      "Not much love on the comments today, but as someone using .NET, WPF and Visual Studio every day I'm pretty optimistic about the future for .NET Core/Standard."

      no bias then. (how is that coolaid aftertaste?)

  11. Matt Bucknall
    Mushroom

    Desktop development

    .NET sucks, QT sucks, GTK+ sucks, Java Swing/FX sucks... it all sucks! All these frameworks are either a bloody mess or so outdated, they make HTML5 look like the best option for developing desktop applications... I can't even tell if that is good or bad, I'm so disillusioned with it all.

    In any case, it is beyond me why anyone would take the time to get their heads around any new development framework MS comes up with... think of all the man hours wasted getting up to speed with Windows phone app development... what a worthwhile effort that was!

  12. RPF

    I think this could be a loooooooong thread!

  13. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge
    Holmes

    Where does it hurt?

    Everywhere so I decided, 'To hell with this game of soldiers' and gave up developing for Windows.

    Regained my sanity after a few months..

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