back to article MacBook Pro petition begs Apple for total recall of krap keyboards

The long-simmering dislike for the keyboard on recent Apple MacBook Pro computers has reached peak pique: A fed-up MacBook Pro owner identifying himself as Matthew Taylor has created a Change.org petition asking Apple to recall every MacBook Pro released since late 2016. "Every one of Apple's current-gen MacBook Pro models, …

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  1. Iain Gilbert

    Apple fix it or people will move

    Not just the MBP, we’ve got 2 MacBooks and both have been in multiple times for collapsed keys.

    The other half loves the keyboard but I hate it, so much so that I bought an old Lenovo X240 to use to do more heavy work than the MacBook.

    Seriously looking at Alternatives now, Huawei’s Matebook is looking very nice.

    1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      Re: Apple fix it or people will move

      It can't. The design of the keyboard is a result of overall form factor choice. It simply cannot fit an alternative keyboard design into anything that thin. So let's be real there will be no fix and no retrofit.

      1. Lusty

        Re: Apple fix it or people will move

        The Surface Laptop manages to get a pretty great keyboard in, and that's thinner and lighter than the MBP.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Apple fix it or people will move

      I wih t makkee aa forrmaai coompplaint: Oh ffuuuck thhis AApplee:

      1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

        Re: Apple fix it or people will move

        "I wih t makkee aa forrmaai coompplaint: Oh ffuuuck thhis AApplee:"

        Or as my Mac would write this:

        Iwihtmakkeeaaforrmaaicoompplaint:OhffuuuckthhisAApplee:

        Just signed the petition. Not that it will bother Apple one bit, but hey.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Note to Apple- it's bordering on criminal in terms of design.

        "I wih t makkee aa forrmaai coompplaint: Oh ffuuuck thhis AApplee:"

        Looks like you need to replace your keyboard!

        These two videos* show the effort that is required to get access to the keyboard. Unbelievable, not the replacement process, the effort Apple have gone to stop you, it's bordering on criminal in terms of design.

        Part 1 / Part 2

        https://youtu.be/YMueATtTcQg

        https://youtu.be/Hg175WN2grc

        Damning evidence and why you should never buy a Macbook Pro w/touchbar. These two videos alone should stop anyone buying one.

        *By youtuber Fixstudio (thanks for posting these).

    3. Wibble

      Re: Apple fix it or people will move

      People won't move for that requires a change in operating system which effectively means moving to that Windos crapware. Apple may treat their customers really badly, but Microsoft.... Just plain no.

      The new keyboards and Macbook Pros are horrible with a keyboard where it's hard to feel the position of the keys, not to mention are outrageously expensive -- the new Apple "Magic" keyboard is now £150.

      Nowadays, being an Apple customer does leave one with the feeling of being treated like a wizard's sleeve.

      1. jgarbo
        Trollface

        Re: Apple fix it or people will move

        And here's silly old me, behind the times, running Linux on an ancient T40 Thinkpad, all keys perfect, 15 years on. I thought Apple was for kids' games. Grown ups actually use that trash for writing?!

        1. katgod

          Re: Apple fix it or people will move

          jgarbo,

          Yes and all those transistors when you could use tubes and whats with digital music, vinyl sounds so much better, leave the streaming and modern computers to the kids.

      2. Cavehomme_

        Re: Apple fix it or people will move

        “Windows crapware”

        No, they have a real choice, they can buy whichever Windows laptop they want that has a much better keyboard and then...install Linux, some distros being near enough to OSX as to be a real choice.

        Yes, Garbageband and Pages etc won’t work of course, but working with online versions of Office 365 will work fine and i can see quite a few professionals deserting Apple over the coming years as this once excellent company further degenerates.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Apple fix it or people will move

        Nowadays, being an Apple customer does leave one with the feeling of being treated like a wizard's sleeve.

        Surely it's Apple who are behaving like an utter wizard's sleeve? Any fix will be hugely expensive, but in the context of money being "returned" to investors, sorting it out was easily within Apple's resources. They're just choosing not to because they know most customers will remain bizarrely loyal to the brand.

        1. werdsmith Silver badge

          Re: Apple fix it or people will move

          At least in an emergency an ordinary cheap USB keyboard could just be plugged in to an available USB port so the owner could keep working.....

          Oh... wait...

      4. NogginTheNog

        Re: Apple fix it or people will move

        At least with Windows you get to choose the hardware - of which there are many competing designs?

        1. d3rrial

          Re: Apple fix it or people will move

          @NogginTheNog you'd think that, but when I dual boot into Windows 8.1 Pro with my i7-8700k I get the message that my CPU is too new for my Windows version and that I either need to use an older CPU or buy Windows 10.

          An error message that minimises all other windows btw., on an OS that I only installed because I wanted to play games that don't yet work in wine.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Apple fix it or people will move

            "or buy Windows 10."

            So you ignored the free upgrade for several years and now it's Microsoft's fault?

      5. Lusty

        Re: Apple fix it or people will move

        "People won't move for that requires a change in operating system which effectively means moving to that Windos crapware. Apple may treat their customers really badly, but Microsoft.... Just plain no."

        Urrrm no. Apple are literally the only people who don't play well with others now. The Surface is a standard laptop which will run any OS. Apple won't licence OSX to run on it, despite being compatible.

        1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

          Re: Apple fix it or people will move

          The Surface is a standard laptop which will run any OS

          Except MacOS. Or any variant of linux that requires the SecureBoot enclave to be unlocked..

          Apple won't licence OSX to run on it, despite being compatible

          Two things - how do you know it's compatible? You can't test it.. (and look at the various Hackintosh forums to see the pitfalls of trying to get MacOS working on non-Apple hardware). Secondly, Apple did license their OS out to other vendors many years ago and it nearly killed the company. Apple were (and are) primarily a *hardware* company (which makes the current situation all the more baffling - they've let form dictate function which goes against their design philosophy) and they make their money off hardware (and the services associated with that hardware - the OS isn't one of them since they give it away free to anyone who has their hardware).

          Since their focus is selling hardware, allowing others to undercut them will again imperil the company. Why would anyone pay £2500 for a top of the range Macbook Pro if they could get a knockoff clone for £1200? Even if the knockoff clone came with serious reliability issues (ha!) then there would be enough people who would go for that option to seriously undercut Apple. Ditto for iOS.

    4. SuccessCase

      Re: Apple fix it or people will move

      Having just had the top cap (e.g. the entire keyboard and battery arrangement) of my MacBook Pro replaced because of this problem I have a few things to say about this issue.

      The problem is very real and extremely annoying. A reliably functioning keyboard is of course absolutely essential for getting work done.

      For me the problem isn’t - for the most part - how the keyboard works as designed, when new, I personally mostly like it very much. The problem is how the design fails to retain reliability when confronted with common real world usage scenarios.

      In fact I love the limited key movement and I think there are very good arguments limited movement with a good mechanical activation action, where the keys can take the weight of a rested finger without activating, but activate consistently when deliberate pressure is applied is best. If all keyboards were this way when we started to learn to type, I think there are very few people who would want to move to a less economical keyboard where more movement is required. In other words, I suspect, what people say they like has a very large component of what they are used to rather than being based on what is actually best.

      The problem with the new keyboard is with the phrase “activate consistently.” When the machine is new, the activation is very and - for the limited travel - impressively precise and consistent. The problem is that when debris gets under the keys, the activation stops becoming consistent. It is absolutely essential with a keyboard that when a mechanical key passes the activation point, e.g. clicks down. Even if it is pushed past that point with the slightest of pressure, that the key activates EVERY SINGLE TIME. It is on that point where the new keyboards start to fail within a relatively short period of time (for me it was about 6 months). This problem has been made worse with they new keyboard because, for purely aesthetic reasons, there is an extremely tight tolerance between the plastic key and the surrounding metal laptop case, which means the key “well” becomes a debris trap. Once it has gone in, there is no easy way to get it back out again. This tight tolerance together with the limited travel is a major cause of the problem.

      Secondly, though I love the mechanical action of the keys, the design fails in other ways.

      1. The keys are too large. This is again, I think, for aesthetic reasons. But actually, contrary to common thinking, overly large keys are a problem. You can’t feel the edge of the keys easily enough, and lose a sense of if your hand is sitting in the right posisition on the keyboard. When keys had a concave surface this wasn’t an issue. Also, I’m typing this on the iPad Pro keyboard. It is much “cheaper” looking than the MacBook Pro keyboard. Yet the typing action is actually superb. I think I miss-key less on this than my MacBook Pro and the reason for this is precisely because the key caps size are smaller. Crucially the distance between the keys remains full size. People often complain about smaller keys, without taking this into account that actually they smaller size means “no looking” touch typing hand position can be more easily determined I can tell you, I can type faster and more consistently on the iPad Pro keyboard than on my new MacBook Pro keyboard even though the mechanical action of the keys on the latter is superior (having said that the non mechanical action of the keys on the rubber iPad keyboard is superb - far better than my brain thinks, based on looks alone, it has a right to be).

      2. For aesthetic reasons the arrow keys are make so the left and right are the same size as the up and down key combined. I don’t know a single touch typing user who finds this arrangement easier to “touch type” with than the older arrangement. I find this very annoying and, worse, Apple, I am reminded of my annoyance at the design EVERY SINGLE TIME I MISSKEY.

      The customer support at Apple was very good. The keys would only fail to register occasionally, but it would happen enough that it was extremely annoying. They didn’t try testing it and then arguing it wasn’t happening every time as I feared they might. The most common really annoying key combination failing being cmd+x leaving an actual x in my text instead of cutting the selection (so clearly the cmd key was failing to register if not pushed hard enough) would only fail about once a day, but even that is enough to be extremely, *extremely* annoying. They accepted that and replace the whole top case.

      But the design problem remains, I have no faith the stuck keys issue will not return in another six months. For sure I will be extremely careful not to use the keyboard in a dirty invironment (for sure eating lunch by the laptop is now a no no). It’s far too much money to have spent on a premium product for it to have a non premium problem in the design like this.

      Apple really need to work hard to sort this out. And yes there should be a recall. I don’t accept the design is limiting in a way that these problems can’t be overcome, even with the exact same form factor. Indeed, I think they have made improvements since the first generation version I purchased, so we will see if it lasts better.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Does no one see the problem here?

    Left mac a couple of years ago because quality doesn't match price anymore.

    The fact that your only recourse is a f**king petition shows just how much of apple's bitch you are.

    1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

      Re: Does no one see the problem here?

      And let's be honest - the petition will probably bother Apple not one bit. So even that 'recourse' is essentially worthless.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Useless Apple

    How on earth did this keyboard design get past any kind of real world testing? It sounds like they made one, tried it for 10 minutes, and then committed to it for production.

    Presumably reverting to a more traditional design is a non starter. They'd have to redesign the case to be, what, 1 mm fatter? Whilst they're at it they could make the battery fatter too, get some more charge out of it. And how about upgradeable RAM whilst they're at it?

    1. TFL

      Re: Useless Apple

      Sure, they could make it thicker, upgradeable and all that. Of course, then it's a ThinkPad, which is what replaced my dead MBP. I went the full "mobile workstation" route, with a P50. Multiple drive bays, three empty RAM slots, *lovely* keyboard. I don't give a rat's ass that it's thicker or heavier, it works better.

      Oh, and I even found an adapter to take the Apple-specific SSD, to put it into a small enclosure to create effectively a SATA-compatible laptop drive. That's in the ThinkPad now as another 500GB that was just going to sit idle in the dead Mac.

      1. angardner

        Re: Useless Apple

        I am really sorry for you that you decided to switch to thinkpad. MBP is still far and far above anything else. Thinkpad is total crap. I bet you run Windows on it too. Its powershell and bill gates vs. terminal. you lose.

        1. TFL
          Linux

          Re: Useless Apple

          Well, I kept a little Windows partition, basically for iTunes and a couple games. The vast majority of the time it's Linux Mint... again, back to having a stronger element of control.

          Sure, I could have paid to have the main board replaced on the MBP ($700CAD), right after dropping $300 for the battery replacement that also requires replacing the keyboard, trackpad, and case top. Because you know, gluing it all together is just peachy when one thing goes. The main board is probably mostly-good too, but the charging circuit died. I couldn't even pay for a main board with more soldered-in RAM, because Apple will only do like for like replacement. Yes, I'd be paying for the part, but there is basically an inflated price and then a "discount" unless you get precisely the same part.

          If I had had the repair done, it still would have left me with an out-of-warranty, never-upgradeable laptop with some stuck pixels in the display. This new one is warrantied *and* I can get in there myself to do upgrades, imagine that! Oh, and built like a tank.

        2. georgezilla Silver badge

          Re: Useless Apple

          No need to be sorry.

          I don't use Windows.

          Nor do I use OS X.

          And I too have a terminal. Have had if for years.

          On top of that, my hardware is just as fast as yours. With more cores/threads. More ram. More storage. IS upgradeable. And cost HALF of a MBP.

          So no. Don't be sorry for me. Be JEALOUS of me!

        3. FuzzyWuzzys

          Re: Useless Apple

          "MBP is still far and far above anything else."

          It used to be. Born and bred in the 8bit era, moved up through Windows until the blessed light of Lord Jobs found me one Summer morn in 1998 and I bought my first Mac. At one point, with just 3 people in our house, we owned 4 iMacs and 3 Macbooks. Verily the Lord Jobs did smile upon our blessed house. All the while I continued to spread the good word as I toiled among the heathens in their Solaris, HPUX and Linux world. I tried hard to spread the good word of the Lord Jobs but then the Church of Apple succumbed to the vile will of dirty money, they saw that they valued vanity and money over quality offerings. The Cook has taken the word of the Lord Jobs, corrupted it, lead his flock astray by the introduction of sub-standard offerings. My faith strained to breaking point until one day it snapped. I installed VirtualBox on my iMac, I learned in secret that Windows and Linux were not evil, just alternatives and that they had value and much to offer. The heathen Gates and his lackey Balmer had worked hard on their own good word and it was good once more, blessed was the way of Powershell, pure and clean. Our very own Luther, Linus had worked hard and had established his own following, once again, good an strong. I also began once more to work in the infinite possibilities of custom hardware. The haze lifted from my eyes and I found there was a new true way, the "way of balance" whereby we can all co-exist in a tolerance and respect. I now build my own hardware and look for whatever works best when I need it. Sometimes OSX, sometimes Windows and other times Linux.

          Now I preach the word of "horses for courses", sure you can pay a premium for expensive hardware to run what is a good verison of Berkley Unix with a superb GUI, and OSX is a damn fine O/S but don't let the light of Jobs blind you anymore my son. Be at peace with all the world and it's varying viewpoints.

          There is still an elegance in the offerings from the Church of Jobs but having ascended to meet his own maker, the money-lenders entered the temple and now there is no one to cast them out. Apple doesn't care for us anymore, if they ever did, greed and corruption abound in the once pure Church of Jobs and I won't pray there anymore.

          1. badger31

            Re: Useless Apple

            Amen, brother. Preach it!

          2. imaginarynumber

            Re: Useless Apple

            "There is still an elegance in the offerings from the Church of Jobs but having ascended to meet his own maker, the money-lenders entered the temple and now there is no one to cast them out."

            Jesus wept- are you really blaming it on a Zionist conspiracy? Personally I see it as little more than the Reality Distortion field being weaker since Jobs kicked the bucket.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Useless Apple

              "Jesus wept- are you really blaming it on a Zionist conspiracy?"

              Its truly amazing how many staggeringly dumb people there are on this site.

              Go look up "analogy" you brainless gimp.

            2. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

              Re: Useless Apple

              "Jesus wept- are you really blaming it on a Zionist conspiracy? "

              At least as seriously as saying that Jesus cried His heart out when he heard this.

              PS @Boltar I'd have gone with bellend - opening the way to a raft of circumcision jokes...

        4. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Useless Apple

          You do realise Gates hasn’t been involved with MS (apart from collecting dividends!) for oh what a decade?!

    2. Howard Hanek
      Meh

      Re: Useless Apple

      ....the chimpanzes they use to test have a much lighter touch I guess.

    3. charlieboywoof

      Re: Useless Apple

      Seems the norm now all over Apple, the customer is R&D

  4. Dan 55 Silver badge

    Daring Fireball blogger John Gruber, who built a substantial following based on his thoughtful appreciation of Apple technology and design

    Well he's about five years about of date.

  5. Grikath
    Trollface

    I'm disappointed.....

    4 hours+ in, and there's no influx of raging Fanbois who're falling over themselves to vehemently protest about the unfair and biased reporting about Fruit inc. by Vulture Central.

    Ith Thradhition! Poor commentards are missing out on lazy weekend trolling..

    1. TRT Silver badge

      Re: I'm disappointed.....

      Not all of the commentards are missing out on lazy weekend trolling, obviously...

    2. macjules

      Re: I'm disappointed.....

      From the flaming above I would say that by now lots of mom's basements have an angry fanboi busy ranting.

    3. kain preacher

      Re: I'm disappointed.....

      It's Cinco de Mayo in the sates. Basically an excuse to get shit faced like saint Paddy day.

      1. TRT Silver badge

        Re: Sink o'the Mayo?

        What? Is that like an Irish thing? Or when you empty all the old Hellman's jars down the drain because you find it's all out of date when you get it out to go with the salad accompanying the first BBQ of the season?

      2. Allthegoodhandlesaretaken

        Re: I'm disappointed.....

        They would be but they havent got a working keyboard at the moment..

    4. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

      Re: I'm disappointed.....

      "4 hours+ in, and there's no influx of raging Fanbois who're falling over themselves to vehemently protest about the unfair and biased reporting about Fruit inc. by Vulture Central"

      I'm usually fairly pro-Apple, but as I type this on my oh-so-thin 3-month old MBP, hammering the shit out of the spacebar, left-shift, 'g' and the '3' to get them to register, whilst trying to actually turn off iPhone wifi instead of it just 'pausing' until tomorrow, and wondering whether I have all 7 adapters I'll need for my presentation tomorrow AND trying to figure out whether the battery will die at 30% battery again like it did today, I really can't bring myself to give it the fanboi ra-ra at the moment.

  6. Kevin McMurtrie Silver badge

    Visual elegance

    It's bizarre that Apple is discarding every single desirable trait except for the visuals. Apple laptops may be beautiful but they make me think of dongle adapters, expensive repairs, impossible upgrades, walled gardens for data, strange feature selections, and searching endless websites of superstitious cures to strange software glitches. I've found newer ones frustrating to use at work even when there's an IT department that should be taking care of it. The Chinese laptops are starting to look nice.

    1. TRT Silver badge

      Re: Visual elegance

      Behold the OOBE!

      Still get that waft when you open the nearly airtight box...

  7. JLV

    hope this takes off

    Recent MBPs are visually nice, but aren't that great under the covers.

    The keyboard, even when it works, doesn't have a very pleasant tactile feedback. And, in my 4 weeks before I returned the MBP it did manage to get a key semi-stuck on a speck of dust once.

    The touchpad, which can be toggled on to remain in function key mode, provides NO tactile feedback whatsoever. This is highly annoying when you are using something like a text editor which relies on function keys.

    Add to this outrageous SSD prices and non-serviceability, despite having really good repair shops near me.

    I would regret leaving macOS when my MBP dies - I like not having to configure the OS and its GUI much - but Linux is going to be a strong consideration unless they get their act together.

  8. DJV Silver badge

    "We also asked a brick wall"

    Lego or real bricks? Playmobile reconstruction of said event, please?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Megaphone

      Re: "We also asked a brick wall"

      Don't know about a whole wall, I can't afford that-- but if/when a lone brick seems to be no good for talking, you're just holding it wrong.

      1. Michael H.F. Wilkinson Silver badge

        Re: "We also asked a brick wall"

        If the Reg had listened carefully, they may have heard a slight echo from the brick wall. Not very helpful, but better than nothing

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I think Apple will fix this

    There clearly is a design flaw and the complaints are only going to multiply now that the issue has reached the mass media.

    I predict a fix or refund deal coming along within the next month.

    1. FuzzyWuzzys
      Facepalm

      Re: I think Apple will fix this

      I have upvoted you purely based on your wonderfully pure optimism in the face of a multi-billion dollar company you think actually cares.

      I'll tell you what will happen. Apple will release a new MBP version, with a fixed keyboard. All the true zealots will rush out to buy it, love it to bits, dump their old kit on the second-hand market and forgive Apple for everything. Those that remain with theie busted keyboard on the old model will quietly be fixed as there will so few that Apple will not have to perform a mass recall and get any bad press.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I think Apple will fix this

        I think there are more reasons to be positive than your post suggests. Apple's solution to the iPhone slowdown issue, whereby they will replace out of warranty batteries for $29, seemed reasonable to me.

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