back to article Facebook scandal: EU politicians should aim for straight answers, not star witnesses

Politicians on this side of the Pond need to stop obsessing about getting Mark Zuckerberg in front of them, and start preparing to grill his subordinates. In the aftermath of the revelations about Facebook data being sold to political consultancy Cambridge Analytica, lawmakers have been queuing up to demand the CEO sits in …

  1. ArrZarr Silver badge
    Holmes

    Get the engineers in

    The people who know how the nuts and bolts work will be pathologically incapable of giving half answers or stalling for time. They'd much prefer to inform the politicians exactly how everything will fit together in more detail than the politicians will want and will feel distinctly awkward if they try to sidestep a question.

    1. Irongut

      Re: Get the engineers in

      Just because you think all engineers are some kind of socially awkward autism sufferer does not make it so. I'm a software engineer and I can lie, bluff and tell half truths with the best of them.

      1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

        Re: Get the engineers in

        Just because you think all engineers are some kind of socially awkward

        When the engineer lies about not knowing something it is quite easy to get him for contempt of court. Hence, they usually do not.

        When a middle manager lies about not knowing something, it is possible to nail them, but quite difficult. So they tend to measure the amount of "I do not know" which they deliver and try to use this only as final get out of jail trump card.

        When a C-suite member lies brazenly and openly about not knowing what is going on they usually get off the hook. There were plenty of examples of that recently, I will not quote the exact ones.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Get the engineers in

          When a CEO-level person doesn't have a clue what's going on, why are they being paid a fortune (in real money, shares, or both)?

          Sensible people shouldn't have a problem with company execs personally and individually getting loadsamoney when their company does well, so long as the same execs are also held personally and individually responsible when the company (and its stakeholders, e.g. users, customers, employees, shareholders) gets into Big Trouble because of the personal and individual cluelessness of those execs. That's fair, isn't it?

          Follow the money. That might get the attention of the relevant people. Or it might not, in which case... well, hopefully it won't come to that.

      2. ArrZarr Silver badge

        @Irongut

        So when you're discussing something with a Non Technical person and they get a detail wrong, it doesn't hurt when you make the decision that the detail they got wrong isn't important enough to go back and fix their misconception?

        How about when somebody asks you if something is possible and the answer is No 99% of the time but there is a specific edge case where the answer is yes? I've had to learn the hard way to just say No instead of adding any modifers onto the statement and it hurts whenever I do it.

        That's why I'd get the engineers in, not because they're socially awkward autism sufferers, but because being an engineer means you have worked on your eye for detail to the point where the details become much more important.

      3. Dr_N
        Trollface

        Re: Get the engineers in

        > I'm a software engineer

        I guess OP needs to clarify if his comment was about real engineers of software engineers?

      4. Jeffrey Nonken

        Re: Get the engineers in

        I don't suffer from autism, I revel in it!

        1. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Devil

          Re: Get the engineers in

          autism: another name for GENIUS

          (same with 'assburgers' I might add...)

      5. el kabong

        Irongut, your exaggerated confidence betrays your obvious lack of lying skills

        only an amateur would talk like that. If someday, someone, gets you in a situation where you have to face the pros and lie to them then you're doomed, pal. By the way you talk it's pretty obvious that your performance in the field would in no way match your unrealistic expectations.

        There's no shame in being like that, instead of feeling shame you should be proud of it.

  2. a_yank_lurker

    Round 1A?

    Many major scandals unravel when someone low enough on the food chain testifies; one who knows enough details but not really part of the plot. Zuck and the other top brass can bluff and blustertheir way past but get the right level and the gory details will come out.

  3. Oddlegs

    I don't understand this new obsession with politicians wanting to grandstand in various hearings. It was the same with UK MPs interviewing bigwigs from Google and Apple about how little tax they pay. It achieves nothing. If Facebook have done something illegal then investigate and punish them. If they've done something which you think should be illegal then change the law to make it so. If you just want to appear tough on TV before everything goes back to how it was before then save everyone's time and money and don't bother.

    1. Naselus

      'New' obsession? Politicians have been doing this forever. For example, you may have heard of Joseph McCarthy?

      1. JimmyPage Silver badge
        Headmaster

        RE:you may have heard of Joseph McCarthy?

        Or to prove a point, Cato and Carthago delenda est from two millennia ago ....

        1. Dr Paul Taylor

          Liber facium delendus est.

    2. teebie

      Because it shows that they "are doing something" about the problem, without them actually having to do anything.

      Reiterating problems is much easier than fixing them.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Five eyes taught us that Facebook and its ilk are all in bed with government to varying degrees so this is all just circus for now. The only organisation that isn't in bed with them is the EU hence GDPR. So I'm going to sit back and enjoy the show and wait for 25th May at which time I will get out the popcorn and await the fireworks, hopefully there will be a bonfire with Facebook on the top.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      The only organisation that isn't in bed with them is the EU hence GDPR. So I'm going to sit back and enjoy the show and wait for 25th May at which time I will get out the popcorn and await the fireworks,

      You think that only Five Spies have intelligence and police services who think that easily hacked or dubiously grabbed data is a godsend?

      France, Germany, Spain, Sweden and others have all been subject to extremist attacks, and whilst (in particular) the cabbage-munching masses might think that they should not and are not being spied on, I think that the interpretation and application of GDPR across all of the EU will have a big element of window dressing about it.

      The companies who will truly feel the wrath of GDPR will not be big tech, they will be large, high profile companies who DON'T generally scoop vast amounts of user data, but make mistakes anyway, and they will be companies whose data is only marginally useful to cops and spooks. FMCG companies, energy suppliers, water companies, retailers, traditional publishers for example.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Interesting opinion though if one of the citizens of the EU brings a complaint I don't see how they will be able to to ignore it thereby forcing compliance on the likes of Facebook.

  5. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    "This is possibly true – but only to an extent. Congressmen and women did push him on whether GDPR rights – such as the right to data portability or to object – would apply to everyone, but he slipped out of those questions just as he did the ones on shadow profiles or tracking logged-out users."

    From a purely European PoV that's something FB will have to work out for themselves. A better question will be what they plan to do to satisfy GDPR rights in Europe, including those of non-account holders.

    If - and it's a big if - they can achieve that then they need to work out whether it's easier to simply apply them system-wide. That must be a question a lot of corporations will have to decide once they've taken on board the fact that the EU means business over this. And, if EU politicians didn't mean business before, FB and CA between them have definitely raised the profile of privacy.

  6. alain williams Silver badge

    Have someone with nouse ask the questions

    Eg get someone from EFF (Electronic Frontier Foundation) or similar to ask the questions.

    Second best is to get EFF to write them so that the politicians can still look clever by asking them; the trouble with this is that they won't be able to ask the right follow up questions - to the obfuscating answers.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Tracking of non-users

    "but he slipped out of those questions just as he did the ones on shadow profiles or tracking logged-out users."

    What makes me furious is that NO-ONE is challenging them on tracking people who have never even been users of Facebook.

  8. ashton

    They just want to feel important and relevant.

  9. Stoneshop
    Flame

    is Zuck best one to grill?

    He looks a bit lean, but with sufficient herbs, spices and judicious marinating he may become quite tasty still. And then a slow roast over a smoky fire.

    1. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Devil

      Re: is Zuck best one to grill?

      Yes, but a consistent diet of such could cause a condition similar to 'rabbit starvation'...

      Roasting and eating REAL weasels (i.e. the actual animal) would be healthier.

      1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

        Re: is Zuck best one to grill?

        Yes, but a consistent diet of such could cause a condition similar to 'rabbit starvation'.

        Oh - I don't know - there's a reason why it's called 'long pig'.

        After all, it stands to reason that a human body (if Zuck qualifies) must contain all the nutrients needed for a human to survive.

  10. Mark 85

    It was a nice Dog and Pony show for all.

    On the Congressional side, they got their 4 or 5 minutes in front of the camera so they can tell the folks back home that they care and did something..

    On Zuck's side... his evasiveness will work in his favor long term. Congress did it's job and in reality, he won't have to "get back to them" on the unanswered questions.

    If Congress wanted real answers, they would send him a request to come back to Washington with the answers and this time, only have a few of the CongressCritters asking the questions. Staying on topic and focused just doesn't seem to be their forte unless it's about an election.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I'm Sparticus, yes I'm Sparticus too

    How can we be all Sparticus and so ALL get GDPR protection... What criteria is going to be used by Facebook to decide which data-rape rules to apply? What happens if you Work or Travel outside the EU for a while too etc?

    Any of these possibilities for example:" The location you set in your profile.. The Geo-IP location where the account was originally opened.. The location where the account was principally accessed in the past 12 months.. The location of the majority of your friends etc.. How will it work?

    All of this needs to be made pretty bloody clear and damn quickly, as Zuk's testimony in front of lawmakers was anything but, and its a month to GDPR!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      And if you use Tor / VPN to access Facebook

      What Privacy Rules apply then? GDPR is a 'pretend firewall' and is probably unworkable. What's the odds millions of Europeans find out in 5-10 years that a mistake was made? - Did Zuck offer to add a special icon to the Activity Log icon that confirms GDPR rules apply? Google had to abandon Gmail slurp because of this kind of ambiguity. It was hurting cloud sales, as Corporate customers didn't trust the psychopaths at Google to not spy on them. Where there's doubt there is no doubt: dump Facebook!

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Who cares who Facebook send - Look at the status quo:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-03-01/britain-s-white-collar-cops-are-getting-too-good-at-their-job

    I've heard enough. Is there any kind of utopia on this rock where:

    :-

    #1. Facebook is banned (setup Tor/VPN if you want this cesspit)

    #2. The default Search-Page on every Browser is Startpage.com

    #3. Every phone comes Google-free with only 1 app installed: Signal

    #4. Hosts Ad filters+Adblockers come pre-installed on every device

    #5. The default OS installed on every new PC is Linux not Win-10

    #6. Your new Car doesn't Spy / Track you / Phone Home / Play Ads

    #7. IoT comes first with utility / security / privacy, not 'Slurp n Track'

    #8. Email is locally hosted, @gmail / @outlook / @yahoo is shunned.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Facebridge Analytica

    Interesting that CA were only suspended and not banned for life... Why is that - Is it because there is no real difference between Zuk & Nix? They both see the world the same way, there to be played. It doesn't matter whose playing, as long as they're paying! Money has no morals, its useful for 200k chandeliers though...

    As long as no one is planning to blow up Facebook HQ, why not make the global spying apparatus available to anyone with serious $$$. That's why Zuk & Nix can't really talk about how their firms work. Its also why politicians don't want to mess with Facebook or CA. They're useful tools - for hire. The world's greatest behavioral experiment on humans ever... What's not to like about that propaganda machine!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Facebridge Analytica

      "why politicians don't want to mess with Facebook"

      There may be another reason, in the UK at least, and maybe elsewhere too.

      UK political parties in recent times have traditionally had backroom characters called "party whips". Officially they are supposed to ensure that elected representatives follow the leader's instructions. Unofficially one way they do this by keeping track of the 'secret' indiscretions of the elected representatives.

      Obviously that's nothing like blackmail because that kind of blackmail would reflect very poorly on the UK's political institutions and the way they 'work'.

      http://uk.businessinsider.com/black-books-government-whips-westminster-sexual-harassment-scandal-explained-2017-10

      Some of that kind of information and other useful dark information is now also held by "social media" companies, and in the same way as other stuff these companies know about, it is presumably available to these companies' friends.

      As they say in Westminster: "You might possibly think so. I couldn't possibly comment.".

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Facebridge Analytica

      'What's the use of power if you don't abuse it?!'

  14. Matthew Taylor

    I'm for whichever option involves more of Zuckerberg failing the Turing test, while getting hauled over the coals by a room full of bigwigs.

  15. GIRZiM

    Lock him in The Tower

    They should get him over here and then lock him up whilst a thorough investigation is carried out, any changes made to ensure that the all-European service, run by Facebook Europe, a separate entity not subject to the whims of the U.S. and its P.A.T.R.I.O.T. and C.L.O.U.D. Acts, is GDPR compliant and that any data passing from the EU/UK to the US is limited to the content of communications and any unavoidable metadata (such as who and when) but no more.

    Then (and only then) he could be allowed to leave - although I reckon they should hold on to him for a few years more pour encourager les autres.

  16. Martin Summers Silver badge

    Having the likes of Zuckerberg in front of a committee is vanity and grandstanding to give politicians the feeling of being powerful over a huge company.

    Change does come from the top down though and I'm sure Zuckerberg didn't exactly like being sat there being grilled even if he could wing his way through it. It might just have the desired effect simply so that he doesn't find himself in the same position again. I say might optimistically because after a while everyone forgets and people revert to type fairly quickly.

    1. GIRZiM

      Re: I'm sure Zuckerberg didn't exactly like being sat there being grilled

      > It might just have the desired effect simply so that he doesn't find himself in the same position again.

      Not only do I imagine that your cynicism (after a while everyone forgets and people revert to type) will prove well founded and not only do I imagine that the end result will be that steps are taken not to ensure it doesn't happen again but rather that, when it does, nobody gets caught, but the problem is that he isn't obliged to turn up at all - no matter how immoral Facebbok's actions, they weren't illegal and he could just decline the invitation to appear before the panel on the grounds that he simply doesn't feel like it.

      I doubt people are going to stop using Facebook in sufficient numbers worldwide for it to make any real difference and in a few years, when all the fuss has died down and everyone has bought the line "we've fixed it" hook and sinker too, they will, as you say, forget all about it; and if you press people on it they'll reply "Facebook fixed that so it can't happen again" - your own incredulous reply of "Who told you that?" won't win you any converts because people will just call you paranoid (people are stupider than you can possibly imagine).

  17. T. F. M. Reader

    Better intelligence

    You always get better intelligence from sergeants than from generals.

  18. strum

    The question that isn't being asked is - why is a coder CEO of such a large and influential corporation?

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