back to article Airbus plans beds in passenger plane cargo holds

Airbus has revealed a plan to put beds in passenger planes’ cargo holds. The company has teamed with an outfit named Zodiac Aerospace that already tucks crew rest quarters away in the bowels of planes. The two think they can deliver “lower-deck modules with passenger sleeping berths” and say airlines with which they’ve …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Glossing a commercial turd

    With A380 orders drying up, Airbus would appear to be clutching at straws to justify an airframe a lot larger than most airlines now want. With London to Sydney non-stop by twin motor possible in the next few years, and no outstanding orders for 747 passenger planes, the whole concept of huge aircraft appears to have become a niche use case, with those niches unlikely to fund the future or further development of such large aircraft.

    Emirates desire to build a hub in the middle of nowhere, served by A380s is evidently one such niche.

    1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      Re: Glossing a commercial turd

      With London to Sydney non-stop by twin motor possible in the next few years,

      That is the exact driver here. I do not see a way of surviving a direct London-Sydney without with.

      While you are not likely to see this arrangement on Eu-USA transatlantic, it will most likely sell very well on Eu-LatAm, Eu-Australia, USA-LatAm, USA-Austrlia and TransPacific which are becoming posisble with the extra-long range 350.

      1. tip pc Silver badge

        Re: Glossing a commercial turd

        Perth to London non stop is already a reality on a Quantas 787-9

        https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/25/first-non-stop-flight-australia-uk-arrives-london-onhistoric/amp/

        1. werdsmith Silver badge

          Re: Glossing a commercial turd

          It's perfect for USA -> Europe. You go to bed on the plane like you would in a hotel room, but you wake up at destination, the idea behind London->Scotland sleeper trains of the past.

          All that would be needed would be to streamline the airport processes at each end, the flight in the middle would vanish from your life and air travel would be less onerous.

          I really don't need a high ceiling and a window if I'm asleep.

          1. LucreLout

            Re: Glossing a commercial turd

            I really don't need a high ceiling and a window if I'm asleep.

            I'm not sure how much sleep will be had in them - those beds are likely to see more action than Helmand province.

            The notion of what has happened where you lie, potentially just an hour previously, and the boises while it happens from a bunk across the isle will, for some, prevent any pleasant sleep that may have been had.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Charter flights?

              All swinger...

            2. Velv
              Headmaster

              Re: Glossing a commercial turd

              ...those beds are likely to see more action than Helmand province.

              Er, have you ever stayed in a hotel?

              1. LucreLout

                Re: Glossing a commercial turd

                Er, have you ever stayed in a hotel?

                Not one where every bed in the whole hotel was occupied less than 60 mins before I'm getting into it, where all the sheets need changing in that time, and where there are no walls between my room and yours, no.

            3. Lars Silver badge
              Happy

              Re: Glossing a commercial turd

              "The notion of what has happened where you lie, potentially just an hour previously".

              Those bunks would be dedicated to you (alone) for the whole flight.

              1. LucreLout

                Re: Glossing a commercial turd

                Those bunks would be dedicated to you (alone) for the whole flight.

                .... which will then land and I'll get off, leaving a 30 min turn around time before you get on.

                1. Lars Silver badge
                  Happy

                  Re: Glossing a commercial t

                  ".... which will then land and I'll get off, leaving a 30 min turn around time before you get on.".

                  Or you would be asked to leave your bed 1h before landing and the beds would be fine and ready for the next flight.

                  If this idea is to fly, it will be made to fly. Back to the past, just like the Zeppelins did it, but less expensive.

            4. Paranoid android

              Re: Glossing a commercial turd

              Not sure what you're on about. The business seats I've been in were only used for sitting and drinking. Barring the occasional throw-up what's wrong with the idea?

          2. bazza Silver badge

            Re: Glossing a commercial turd

            All that would be needed would be to streamline the airport processes at each end, the flight in the middle would vanish from your life and air travel would be less onerous.

            That's what BA did with their Concorde service to New York. There was none of this 3-hour check in, queuing for immigration / baggage / customs nonesense. You saved about 4 to 5 hours airport time as well as 3 hours less in the air. So the door-to-door time was more like 4 to 5 hours, instead of 11 to 12 hours. Pretty big saving.

            I think they still do this on their London City - JFK route, but that's subsonic :-(

          3. Laura Kerr

            Re: Glossing a commercial turd

            " You go to bed on the plane like you would in a hotel room, but you wake up at destination, the idea behind London->Scotland sleeper trains of the past."

            Not in the past at all - the Caledonian Sleeper service is still very much alive. I see it on the way to Euston most mornings.

          4. Roland6 Silver badge

            Re: Glossing a commercial turd

            >It's perfect for USA -> Europe. You go to bed on the plane like you would in a hotel room, but you wake up at destination, the idea behind London->Scotland sleeper trains of the past.

            Only issue is timings. The London->Scotland sleeper was really good: I would get on at circa 9pm and disembark in Glasgow/Edinburgh around 6:30/7am. The issue is with a train you can travel slowly and park it in a siding for a couple of hours, so that disembarkment time is reasonable.

            The challenge is converting this to aviation: if you can't takeoff/land with people asleep in the beds then somehow you need to adjust the flight time so that the use of the beds is perceived as being beneficial.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Glossing a commercial turd

              I used to reguarly fly London to New York, normaly first class so I had a proper seat/bed. I would fly out Momday evening after work and eat, drink and watch films on the way arriving late at night then straight to bed and into work in NY first thing Tuesday morning. Coming home I would leave the office Friday PM, and sleep the entire flight home only eating breakfast just before landing at 6AM on Saturday morning. This allowed me to get home as the family were getting up and not be jet lagged. I would have loved these real sleeper planes for flying east but hated them for flying west. Planes that are only popular in one direction aren't good for airlines.

              1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge
                Coat

                Re: Glossing a commercial turd

                Planes that are only popular in one direction aren't good for airlines.

                The Earth is round, just always fly east...

        2. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

          Re: Glossing a commercial turd

          Perth to London non stop is already a reality on a Quantas 787-9

          It will be very interesting to see if this works. Judging by the Qantas mail spam I'm getting they aren't finding it easy to fill, which doesn't surprise me. Maybe a business traveller who just needs to get there quickly for a short trip, and can afford to be up front, would like this, but in economy? Even if they paid me I wouldn't spend 17 hours in any airplane in one go, in any class. The opportunity for a weekend stopover in somewhere like Singapore or Hong Kong is surely one of the plus points of that sort of long distance travel.

          1. SkippyBing

            Re: Glossing a commercial turd

            'Even if they paid me I wouldn't spend 17 hours in any airplane in one go, in any class.'

            Agreed, I love flying but 10 hours into a 15 hour flight from LAX to Hong Kong and I was worried for my sanity.

            1. Hans Neeson-Bumpsadese Silver badge

              Re: Glossing a commercial turd

              'Even if they paid me I wouldn't spend 17 hours in any airplane in one go, in any class.'

              My body clock is dreadful at adjusting to time differences, so even after a four day trip to a distant time zone, I'm still quite badly jetlagged. The one advantage of this is that once I'm on the return flight I can just bung in some earplugs and sleep the vast majority of the journey away.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            @Phill O'Sophical

            "Even if they paid me I wouldn't spend 17 hours in any airplane in one go, in any class."

            Join the club. In fact I'm done with long haul travel altogether, did a fair amount it in my 20s, can't really stand it now in my 40s. SItting in a cramped economy seat even for the 7 hours to new york is torture so screw it. I'll do short haul around europe but for me my long haul days are over unless its for something really special. Its not just planes, I couldn't imagine sitting in a train or bus in the same seat for 7 hours now, though at least with a train you can get up and wander about, perhaps to the buffet car if there is one. Try that too often in a plane and people (understandably) start to look at you as though you're about to make a dash for the cockpit.

            Give me a car, a ferry/eurotunnel ticket and a clear autoroute/bahn/strada and I'm happy these days.

            1. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
              Unhappy

              Re: @Phill O'Sophical

              Worst I had was 13 hours center aisle seats dead center of the biggest fattest fast food eaters you could ever hope not to be stuck with - I book my seats now whenever possible.

              The inflight movie was Wild Wild West just to make it all the more intolerable.

      2. GerryMC

        Re: Glossing a commercial turd

        I recently read elsewhere something from Qantas discussing this idea. The point is that to do the ultra long. non stop Sydney to London routes, they may have to reduce the amount of freight that they carry to reduce weight.

        As there is less freight, some of the cargo hold will be unused, so they can use it for walking cargo.

      3. Alan Brown Silver badge

        Re: Glossing a commercial turd

        "That is the exact driver here. I do not see a way of surviving a direct London-Sydney without with."

        I can't see that being viable on a big twin.

    2. tip pc Silver badge
      Paris Hilton

      Re: Glossing a commercial turd

      Just standard stuff to increase awareness of the product, generate media attention and try to influence sales. Nothing to see here.

      Obvious Paris as I’m sure the hotel brand enjoys an uplift in demand whenever she’s in the press.

    3. bazza Silver badge

      Re: Glossing a commercial turd

      Niche?

      Calling Emirate's A380 operation out of Dubai "niche" is a bit like referring to Ford F150 pickup as "niche".

      Emirate's operation is vast, and the A380 serves them very well. What they offer some of the most profitable passengers (business people who get business class travel) in the aviation market is nigh on unmatched, and it results in pretty good load factors. Amongst other things, that bar they have is a pretty big draw.

      Apparently Emirates consider the staircase you have to climb to First / Business class heaven on their A380s is one of the most powerful marketing tools they have. Yes, it's irrational, but then a lot of purchasing decisions are irrational. People with money like to think they're going "up there", and not "down there".

      Etihad have "The Residence", a multi-room suite on their A380s. This is reputed to be the most profitable ticket ($ / cubic foot) in the whole aviation market.

      I know plenty of people who travel Europe / Asia / Africa who won't even bother looking at any other airline now, simply because they want to go on an A380 to get there. Even for economy class travellers (like I was the other day) the flight on an EK A380 was better than anything else out there (except perhaps another A380), and infinitely preferable to being squeezed up in a 787 or 777.

      Orders

      As for A380 orders drying up, well not yet. Rumours of its extinction have circulated since before it even flew, and yet it's still there. Emirates themselves are in the position of not being able to afford to let the production line close. Many were surprised (not least Boeing) when they ordered a few more, just to keep the line going. It's entirely possible that Emireates will cancel a few 777X orders to compensate which, given the size of the Emirates' order, Boeing would find discombobulating.

      Plus there's clearly a demand from Emirates for an A380neo, and they have the money to pay for it. In fact, they've got the money to buy Airbus to make it happen. Anyway, one of the reasons why it's not happened yet is because Airbus don't want to destroy the investment made by other A380 customers.

      The A380neo is like a gun held to the head of the entire aviation industry; if it is built, and it turns up competing on a route you operate with your puny 777s / 787s, you're likely going to lose all your passengers on that route to the A380neo operator. It just has so much capacity, it's the equivalent of a high quality superstore opening up in competition to a local Mom'n'Pop shop, with all the economies of scale too. Emirates have already been doing this successfully with the current A380 on many routes, the neo would finish off the competition entirely.

      It happened with the 747 too, back in the day. Back then an airline executive had to take a Brave Pill before buying 747s. Those that did made big bucks. Those that didn't failed. The problem with the A380 (and A380neo) is that you have to take a f***ing big Brave Pill to buy them, because by definition it's a statement of intent to increase passenger numbers on a route. In effect Emirates have been saying to the other airlines, "Well if you won't, I will", and getting away with it.

      1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

        Re: Glossing a commercial turd

        I can't see this being commercially viable. Bunks as shown in the photo would require a lot more "housekeeping" between flights if they are to remain pleasant to use, no quick dash round with a binbag & vacuum cleaner there, so turnaround costs go up. They can't be as economical to operate, or as pleasant to use, as a business-class seat even if squashed into the cargo hold.

        As for the A380 itself, sure it's a nice quiet plane, but you still have the problems of arriving at imigration among 500 other passengers. As an example, BA operate an A380 LHR to SFO, and a 787 for LHR to San Jose (SJC). Unless I were actually going into SF city I'd always take the SJC option. Smaller plane, less hassle, shorter queues at arrival & less traffic on leaving the airport. All that far outweighs the minimal advantages of a slightly quieter aircraft. There's little other onboard advantage, the cattle-class seats are equally uncomfortable in both.

        1. SkippyBing

          Re: Glossing a commercial turd

          'Bunks as shown in the photo would require a lot more "housekeeping" between flights if they are to remain pleasant to use, no quick dash round with a binbag & vacuum cleaner there, so turnaround costs go up.'

          It's a module in the cargo hold, which should make replacing it with a fresh module the matter of a few minutes work during the turn round. You then have several hours to clean it on the ground before it goes into the next aircraft. As to whether they can charge enough of a premium to cover the extra cost is a question I can't answer. But then they can charge several times an economy fare to fly people in first class which objectively isn't that much better an experience*.

          *Depending on airline, some of the US carriers seem to go out of their way to make economy a degrading experience which is why I've stopped using them.

          1. ravenviz Silver badge
            Big Brother

            Re: Glossing a commercial turd

            US carriers seem to go out of their way to make economy a degrading experience

            I probably wouldn't go that far, but I admit that flying docmestic in the US always seems to be a strange experience.

            1. Gotno iShit Wantno iShit

              Re: Glossing a commercial turd

              I would.

          2. MrXavia

            Re: Glossing a commercial turd

            "It's a module in the cargo hold,"

            now if they could pre-fill these modules before the plane arrives, you go to sleep before the plane takes off... wake up at your destination...

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Glossing a commercial turd

          As for the A380 itself, sure it's a nice quiet plane, but you still have the problems of arriving at imigration among 500 other passengers. As an example, BA operate an A380 LHR to SFO, and a 787 for LHR to San Jose (SJC). Unless I were actually going into SF city I'd always take the SJC option. Smaller plane, less hassle, shorter queues at arrival & less traffic on leaving the airport. All that far outweighs the minimal advantages of a slightly quieter aircraft. There's little other onboard advantage, the cattle-class seats are equally uncomfortable in both.

          I think another component of that is how busy the airport itself is. I fly in to Birmingham UK regularly, and it seems to make no real difference whether it's an Emirates A380 or a Lufthansa 737. The time through passports is about the same regardless (and quick). It's a much less busy airport than, say, Heathrow, there's far fewer flights, and I'm sure that's a big factor in their ability to quickly deal with 500+ people off an A380.

          I now fly there out of preference instead of London Heathrow because of the reduced airport time.

          1. abedarts

            Re: Glossing a commercial turd

            Anonymous Coward makes a good point - airport time is a big factor and getting worse in many places, but as a UK passport holder I find LHR pretty good nowadays. Not true for all the other people though, they face big queues :(

            1. Alan Brown Silver badge

              Re: Glossing a commercial turd

              "as a UK passport holder I find LHR pretty good nowadays. Not true for all the other people though, they face big queues"

              This is a direct consequence of the number of immigration stations on duty.

              LHR has far fewer than Schipol as one f'instance.

              "Customer service? We've heard of it."

        3. Ken 16 Silver badge
          Trollface

          Re: Glossing a commercial turd

          put them in airfreight containers, swap in sleeping (drugged?) passengers for a faster turnaround?

          I'm looking at you Michael O'Leary

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Glossing a commercial turd

            Well, sometimes when I've been stuck behind particularly slow people in a check-in queue, the nasty side of my mind has played around with the idea of collecting such passengers from home (or a parcel office) and sending them as freight, so they don't have to do complicated things like showing tickets and identity.

            1. Deltics
              Coat

              Re: Glossing a commercial turd

              In the commercial passenger air business, passengers are already referred to - or at least thought of - as "self loading cargo".

              The problem is, you can't slap a barcode or RFID tag on a passenger that they couldn't/wouldn't remove, lose or give to someone else, so all that automated cargo tracking that works so well for the manually loaded cargo is the bit that doesn't work for the self-loading stuff, so you have to keep checking that each piece of cargo really is the piece of cargo that the documentation it carries claims it is.

              Also a box of auto components being shipped around the world cannot start having villainous thoughts and plan to bring down the plane or hijack it in order to fly to it's preferred destination of Maranello instead of the scheduled arrival at Dagenham (via Heathrow) or secure the relase of fellow auto components imprisoned in JIT parts bins in Sunderland.

              Complications, complications.

              If you could organise to collect passengers from their homes or designated pick-up points, verify their cargo papers at that point, place them in a secure container (from which they cannot leave) for delivery to the airport to be directly loaded on board, luggage and all then sure, that could work. You just need to have passengers willing to be treated even more like cargo than they already are.

          2. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
            Alien

            Re: Glossing a commercial turd

            Dumarest again in less than a week (I'm sure I posted it somewhere in the last week) - Travelling by low passage between the stars is the cheapest & the most dangerous.

            Normally used for transporting livestock, it’s a form of suspended animation. Some travelers use it because it’s cheap but with a 20% chance of not waking up at the destination.

        4. ToddRundgrensUtopia

          Re: Glossing a commercial turd

          Didn't they say A330 and maybe A350, nothing about A380?

        5. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Glossing a commercial turd

          Regarding housekeeping, these are long-haul craft, they'll spend hours at the gate just for *refueling*. Cabin turnaround times are on the critical path for commuter flights, not widebody overseas flights (fascinating stuff, I remember seeing a Gantt chart of different plane turnaround times years ago).

        6. MrXavia

          Re: Glossing a commercial turd

          " the cattle-class seats are equally uncomfortable in both."

          " BA operate"

          That is your problem, BA have terrible comfort.. and unfortunately others have followed...

          not sure if there is a nice flying option for the USA in cattle...

      2. Charles 9

        Re: Glossing a commercial turd

        "The A380neo is like a gun held to the head of the entire aviation industry; if it is built, and it turns up competing on a route you operate with your puny 777s / 787s, you're likely going to lose all your passengers on that route to the A380neo operator."

        Not necessarily. You have to be able to accommodate that huge plane, and that requires three considerations: runways, gates, and terminals. Unless you can accommodate them already, or the 380 has the capability to operate within the envelopes of the more-limited jets already in service, especially Re: the runway lengths, then pulling in an A380 is a nontrivial matter, especially since the status quo currently seems to be handling things.

      3. katrinab Silver badge

        Re: Glossing a commercial turd

        Emirates would make more money if they sold their fuel to another airline and didn't fly any planes at all.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Glossing a commercial turd

        I'm a regular business class traveller and occasional first class traveller. I've been on an Emirates A380 once - when BA cancelled the route I was booked on and needed a last minute alternative. Never again.

        What was good:

        1) Being able to do Dar Es Salaam to New York in 2 hops, which BA could no longer do having cancelled their Dar Es Salaam to Heathrow route.

        2) Using top-deck only jet-ways. The boarding and de-planing experience at Dubai was excellent - the lounge is on the same floor as the top-deck jet-way, and you never get stuck in the big queues associated with standard class.

        3) The A380 is very quiet - even during landing and takeoff phases.

        What was truly awful:

        1) The Emirates A380 has a single enormous business class cabin. The amount of noise generated in their made sleep next to impossible. The more the cabin is split up, the easier it becomes to sleep.

        2) Emirates service was trolley-less, the cabin crew walked the trays up and down the aisles. This meant that serving the whole cabin took forever. And when all you want to do is eat dinner and bed-down, you can't because dinner service is a multi-hour affair (with the main cabin lights left on throughout). Also, the length of time it took to get the food from the galley to the seat meant it was arriving luke-warm at best.

        3) There is a serious shortage of toilets on board. IIRC, the standard transatlantic BA 747 has 7 business class toilets compared to 4 on the Emirates A380. The A380 has slightly more business class passengers (80 against 76 or something like that). On the A380 I had to queue for the toilets every time I went to them without exception.

        4) The bar seems like a nice idea. I never saw a single person sat at the bar for the entire flight, so in reality it was a waste of space that should have been used for something useful like toilets.

        5) Flying with Emirates puts you at risk of a run-in with the Dubai customs. I routinely take prescription meds that are illegal in Dubai, and I have to be VERY careful not to have any when I fly through Dubai since the penalty for carrying them is a 4 year prison sentence minimum. I'm unwilling to routinely run the risk that I screw up. This case was at the end of a long trip, so I was willing to throw away my remaining prescription meds in Tanzania before embarking and get new ones when I got back to NY.

        Emirates has clearly been filling aircraft. I don't think the reason for it is the quality of service. I would take one of the Far East airlines over everyone else (Air China, JAL, Nippon, etc.) and happily take BA ahead of Emirates any day of the week.

      5. Alan Brown Silver badge

        Re: Glossing a commercial turd

        "The A380neo is like a gun held to the head of the entire aviation industry"

        Unfortunately not.

        The killer factor of the 747 turned out to be unrefueled range, NOT capacity. Big Twins have eating its advantage from the bottom up because of ETOPS. The 777 in particular has been cannibalising 747 sales for the last 20 years.

        None of this was known when the A380 was first developed and introduced as ETOPS wasn't even around at that point and had only just been introduced respectively.

        The remaining market segments for Big Quads are much smaller. Boeing saw this coming and Airbus didn't.

        ETOPS was a long time coming because high power piston engined aircraft were spectacularly unreliable. More often than not a transcontinental flight arrived with fewer engines operating than it left with. It took 40 years of long haul jet operations to convince authorities that turbines were better.

    4. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: Glossing a commercial turd

      >With A380 orders drying up, Airbus would appear to be clutching at straws to justify an airframe a lot larger than most airlines now want.

      Suspect this isn't so much about new orders but finding reasons why existing customers should maintain their existing A380's (both ordered/in production and in-service) rather than handing them back.

      Given Emirates are by far the biggest customer for the A380, I suspect this must be something they have asked for.

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Glossing a commercial turd

      No one in their right mind would want to spend 22 hours in a plane from Sydney to London with no break.

      1. ravenviz Silver badge

        Re: Glossing a commercial turd

        No one in their right mind would want to spend 22 hours in a plane from Sydney to London with no break

        I would if I had a flat bed to retire to. Mind you I am used to living in a camper van most weekends so I have developed coping strategies for living in an enclosed space.

        1. Stuart 22

          Re: Glossing a commercial turd

          I'm just setting out to join tonight's Portsmouth to St Malo ferry. Takes around 12 hours. Four up in a windowless cabin for most of that time along with several hundred doing the same thing. We choose to do it. There is a market and that mock-up looks like luxury in comparison.

          Go for it!

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Glossing a commercial turd

            "I'm just setting out to join tonight's Portsmouth to St Malo ferry. Takes around 12 hours"

            Don't bother doing it that way - get the 3 hour afternoon fast ferry to cherbourg and drive to St Malo which is about another hour or 2 depending on traffic.

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