back to article Don't want to alarm you, but defence bods think North Korea could nuke UK 'within a few years'

North Korea maintains a hacking base in China, the UK Parliament's Defence Select Committee has been told, while government snooping body GCHQ struggles to retain "cyber-staff". Then there's the slightly greater concern that the communist nation could nuke Britain "within a few years". The House of Commons' Defence Committee …

Page:

  1. wolfetone Silver badge

    We were told Saddam could get to us within 45 minutes, and that turned out to be total horseshit.

    We were also told that, beyond doubt, Porton Down said the Skirpal poisoning originated from Russia. Turns out that's not exactly true either.

    So excuse me for taking this news with a vat of salt the size of Argentina.

    1. Tigra 07

      RE: Wolfetone

      The US would have destroyed them years ago for unrelated reasons if they had oil.

      1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: RE: Wolfetone

        "The US would have destroyed them years ago for unrelated reasons if they had oil."

        They already tried and failed when communism was the devil. Hence there are separate states of North and South Korea. There's no reason whatsoever to suggest that the US could do better now considering they still allies of China, with a convenient land border for easy supply routes, not to mention an enormous Chinese nuclear arsenal to deter the US from starting the apocalypse.

      2. TheVogon

        Re: RE: Wolfetone

        "The US would have destroyed them years ago for unrelated reasons if they had oil."

        Apparently it has ~ £7 trillion in mineral resources!

      3. GIRZiM
        IT Angle

        Re: The US would have destroyed them years ago for unrelated reasons if they had oil.

        Humour me for a moment, because I'm not suggesting it ever could be the case, let alone would be, but just for the purpose of making a related point:

        Just suppose North Korea were a successful nation - financially and socially. Imagine some time in the future when the current regime is gone and some local equivalent of Pirate Party mentality infiltrates and takes over The People's Party. A humane, socially liberal collectivist government of the people, by the people and for the people takes over and makes a success of things.

        Maybe people aren't obscenely wealthy. Maybe there isn't a 1% sitting around on yachts made of solid gold, pooping into toilets cut from a single diamond each that everyone can aspire to. But people have a decent standard of living. Let's say it's a bit like one of the Scandinavian countries - horrendous taxes but people get paid enough to be able to afford them and the trade-off benefits are considered worth it. It's not some Marxist/Communist utopia but there have been, and still are, worse places to live.

        Well, the problem with that would be that our own 1% couldn't threaten rest of us with the horrors of collectivism any more, could they? Because people would point to North Korea and say "Well, it works there! It's better than what I've got here anyway."

        So, whether they have oil or not is immaterial because, no matter how miserable life there might be, what we can't have is people agitating for an alternative social contract that means our 1% would have to stop being as obscenely wealthy as they are.

        So, you nip it in the bud, don't you?

        It doesn't matter how unlikely it is that the North Koreans might ever attain the dizzying heights of 'down and out in Scunthorpe', you make sure they don't even start looking like they might ever get that far - or people here will start asking awkward questions about why they can't, themselves, aspire to 'a bedsit Bognor' instead of the 'share of a campbed in a flea-ridden hostel in Eastbourne' they have to put up with today.

        My point is that it's not always about anything directly tangible - sometimes it's about political pork futures.

    2. MyffyW Silver badge

      The problem, as ever, is that the nuances of scientific doubt are polished away by the spin of PR to the point that all that is left is a nugget of purest turd - fine for flinging at the press but not a sound basis for foreign policy.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @MyffyW

        The bigger problem is when two members of the Cabinet are basically jumped-up journalists and treat major events like scoops. Johnson's rushing to blame the Russian government with manufactured evidence is basically the behaviour of the kind of journalist who makes up interviews and sends in his copy before it's really known what has happened.

        Like - oh I don't know, when Johnson made up an interview and got sacked from The Times.

        When the Press is embedded in the government, there is precisely zero incentive to call it to account.

    3. codejunky Silver badge

      @ wolfetone

      "So excuse me for taking this news with a vat of salt the size of Argentina."

      Well said. And yet when a legitimate crisis comes up the chances of people taking it seriously because of the 'cry wolf' factor will be very low.

      1. LucreLout

        Re: @ wolfetone

        Well said. And yet when a legitimate crisis comes up the chances of people taking it seriously because of the 'cry wolf' factor will be very low.

        Absolutely. Tony Blair is responsible for the deaths of how many millions of civilians? And to achieve what? After the dodgy dossier, there is nothing Labour could ever say to me that I could ever believe. A sad state of affairs given I helped vote them into power. Its akin to the BBC and Jimmy Savile. The idea that there weren't hundreds or thousands of people within the organisation that knew of the scandal before the public discovered it is laughable.

        No other political party has used my vote to lie to the extent that millions of people died. They are all devious lying shysters, but the impact of some lies are just to big to ever be forgiven.

        Taking responsibility for my part in electing the government that started those questionable wars means I can't simply forgive & forget because they ask me to or plead that they have changed. I can't trust them not to start another war, and yet ironically, I certainly couldn't trust them to start one when it was actually needed.

        I'm disapointed with our politicians. They are scum. All of them. Across the political spectrum they threw away the respect we once had for their position for a few sheckles, and they want us to trust them again? Really? Why?

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "We were also told that, beyond doubt, Porton Down said the Skirpal poisoning originated from Russia. Turns out that's not exactly true either."

      We dont know if they did or not. Only that they have NOW said its not 100% proven to be made in Russia. The Russians might have made it in Crimea in the Ukraine for instance.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        The Russians might have made it in Crimea in the Ukraine for instance.

        Maybe in a toilet in Croydon using flow-chemistry equipment for the safe and convenient production of the micrograms(!) of active material needed, kinda like a "cornucopia device" for nerve toxins one get as part of ones spy-assaination-kit?!

        One design feature of these poisons were that they could be made from "common ingredients" to get out under chemical-weapon bans. Maybe very common ingredients, the kind that one can buy straight off eBay.

    5. Peter2 Silver badge

      We were also told that, beyond doubt, Porton Down said the Skirpal poisoning originated from Russia. Turns out that's not exactly true either.

      No, they identified it chemically as being the Russian Novichok agent. They can't say that it came from Russia because the chemical composition is just that, and it does not include transit logs. However, that the Russians are the only people to have manufactured it which rather narrows it down, doesn't it?

      If you can come up with a plausible explanation for:-

      1) Who else has access to the Russian stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction. (which one hopes/assumes to be better secured than business networks that we run)

      and;

      2) Who else had the method, motive and opportunity to assassinate an ex Russian spy who provided SIS with the names and details of Russian spies so they could be deported.

      Then I'm sure everybody would be interested.

      1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

        However, that the Russians are the only people to have manufactured it which rather narrows it down, doesn't it?

        As a chemist by education I can tell you it does not. Even if the synthesis method is unknown, a lab can figure out how to synthesise it from the formula alone. Takes up to a half a year to a year for something like this.

        Who else has access to the Russian stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction. (which one hopes/assumes to be better secured than business networks that we run)

        The mob. Files published in the Russian press. Go and read them. All of the loudest scientists carted out by both sides were in the lab involved, one have done jail time and there was a dead body. In 1996. Someone committed a grave violation of the chemical weapons convention by hushing it up between 1998 and 2002. I am not going to name the someone. Guess who it is yourself...

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          > " Files published in the Russian press"

          Like that jet fighter that shot down MH17 was?

          FFS, they even have form, Litvinenko was traced to a sodding nuclear reactor and then they lost interest in the investigation. The most likely suspect for that is now an MP in a country where to stand at all requires Putin's consent. Victor Yushenko, also poisoned by the Russians, although no doubt there's something else in the Russian "press" for that too. Goes right back before the Soviet era when they whacked Georgi Markov with an unusual poison - they tried poisoning Rasputin first as well.

          They just like to send a message, so it has to be traceable, and probably didn't expect quite such a robust response after they got away with it last time.

          1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

            Like that jet fighter that shot down MH17 was?

            FFS, they even have form,

            You mean like going back in time to 1996, killing a banker and his secretary, putting in jail the director of the lab (one of the 3 which are usually referred to when Novichok is mentioned) and opening a criminal investigation in 1996 for grand treason, sale of categorized toxic substances to the mob, Chechen Islamic militants and a representative of a foreign state?

            I knew the Russians a awesome technologically, but I did not know they invented time travel. The scoop is ALL FROM ARCHIVES and all uncovered by their OPPOSITION PRESS. It was NOT taken over by their mainline press for an obvious reason. The several opened files with criminal charges were closed down between 1998 and 2002 and you know who is the only person who could cancel a grand treason investigation in that period. Let he be unnamed. By the way - pressing this would be significantly more damaging to him than anything we are trying to. Chechen Islamic Militant == Devil over there till this day.

            Additionally, the scoop clears cross references and provides what we call in IT "referential integrity" to a number of facts which did not make sense. Namely:

            1. The claims of the scientist which got to the USA on the novichok story ticket that it was worked in Moscow. Shit like that was worked in around Nizhni Novgorod. Never in the capital. The scoop provides the only meaningful explanation so far - the Moscow lab was given access to the project files when the project was closed in 1988. It was never invented there and the whole story about invention there and tests in Uzbekistan is a fluke.

            2. The "hero scientist" which got severely damaged by the substance during a hood malfunction and passed out mid-Moscow. I have worked with shit only a fraction that dangerous and the protocol was specialized hood, gloved access and personal protection. What f*cking hood malfunction if you are working via gloved box access and wearing extra protection? Again - the files explain both. A) the lab to which the project was transferred was actually analysis, purification and separation - chromatorgaphy lab. It never had any proper kit as it did not need to - it was not its job. B) The boss ordered synthesis (according to the file) of a batch to one of his subordinates and left the building (just in case - what a c*nt). Looks like in one of the cases the subordinate suffered from doing it without the right equipment.

            There are some seriously scary corollaries from the files which are all 20 years old and some of them have been in the hands of the press for a while so it would have taken time machine to go back falsify them. The synthesis of the batch which was used in the 1996 killing was done in a relatively basic lab not specialized in synthesis of toxic compounds by a LAB TECHNICIAN. Yep, a middle-aged Russian mamulia with a technical college degree can synthesize this sh*t if given the precursors and procedures. Nation state my arse. 20 Nation states doubly my arse. One being claimed by a humanitarian with an oxford red brick in his rectum, the other one by a similar one with Ленинградский Институт Международных Отношений up his rectum. Both do not know what they are talking about.

            1. Chris G

              One of the things that I find strange about the whole case is that the Skripals are still alive. When I did my basic training in the '70s, we were told about NBC, nerve agents being the C(hemical) and that micrograms of nerve gas were sufficient to cause death in three minutes. So how were the Skripals able to leave their house (which is where one report I read says they were poisoned) and go to a park bench to be found critically ill.

              Our training which included a film of a goat having had a nerve agent administered, described ( within the three minutes) the course from ingestion to death; ingestion via contact, inhalation or ingestion, first symptom runny nose and watery eyes, increased pulse then heightened respiration, cramps and spasms becoming more severe to they point of spastic movement, extreme vomiting and relaxation of sphincters, here I am sure there were a couple of other things and then death.

              In Three Minutes!

              Additionally I am sure I read that investigators found something like two grams of the stuff on a front door handle, two grams would be enough to take out a village.

              We were trained how to use syrettes filled with atropine IIRC which in order to do any good had to be self administered at the first sign of symptoms. That something nasty has happened is clear, what exactly has happened is very unclear due to what seems to be a lot of BS in the media from all directions.

              Smoke and mirrors.

              1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

                One of the things that I find strange about the whole case is that the Skripals are still alive. When I did my basic training in the '70s, we were told about NBC, nerve agents being the C(hemical) and that micrograms of nerve gas were sufficient to cause death in three minutes.

                Concur. We had the same training.

                There is a possible explanation. It also doubles up for an explanation for why the max concentration is in the entrance hall.

                Just to be clear - this is just me hyphothesizing, no evidence for this, just a set of interesting coincidences :)

                The target was never them. The target was the late brother (for whatever reason) who was snuffed a few months ago under suspicious circumstances in St Petersburgh, the attack was there - most likely by Russians but on Russian soil against a Russian there. All we are seeing is collateral damage from microscopic traces in a bag of clothes and personal artefacts brought by Julia back the day before they were found slumped. What supports this:

                1. Times and survival rates (as you noted).

                2. The discovery of traces on the car which brought her from the airport and the search for traces (though very late ones) on the aircraft.

                3. The maximum of the concentration in the entrance hall. That is where a Slavic woman keeps her laundry bin (it is not kept in the bathroom as in the average British house).

                4. The lack of any further criminology evidence - it all went into the washing machine.

                1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

                  One of the things that I find strange about the whole case is that the Skripals are still alive. When I did my basic training in the '70s, we were told about NBC, nerve agents being the C(hemical) and that micrograms of nerve gas were sufficient to cause death in three minutes.

                  It just hit me.

                  What if D1980 (aka Novichok-4) is so specific that it does not affect Nicotinic Receptors and only the Muscarinic ones. The typical picture of Nicotinic receptor inhibition as for example by Sarin or VX gas is exactly that - 3 minute death. They however can be slowed down by atropine as an antidote. While they also hit Muscarinic receptors, that is usually not part of the equation because the subject is already 6 feet under.

                  One thing in the stuff so far published by Russian opposition press (which is all so far confirmed) and specifically the interview with one of the real guys to design this sh*t (from a numbered town near Nizhny Novgorod) is that there is no antidote. It is repeated by UK press so far too, so it might as well be true. That means a Muscarinic receptor type specific inhibitor. That fits.

                  1. It is slow. It is not 3 minutes. It may take up to half an hour to act.

                  2. It has no antidote - atropine does not work. It has, however an easy way to counteract it which the doctors in Salisbury hit unintentionally. Just put the subject into an artificial coma. As long as there is little or no nerve activity trying to go down via the blocked pathways the nerves cannot damage themselves by "short-circuiting" and breaking the glia. Over time the body synthesizes replacement receptors and voila - the subject which should have been long six feet under is now talking, coherent and may in fact be OK after that.

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                I think that the 'three minutes' thing is (a) if you get a realky big dose, such as if you're a soldier and someone is hurling munitions full of it at you, and (b) a way of encouraging you to act *really quickly* just in cas (a) is true.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              > "You mean like going back in time..."

              Not really.

              Proper tin-foil-hat rant that one.

              Perhaps consider what your sources are before you regurgitate Russian media and facebook posts as if it's anything other than propaganda.

              The reason the UK has so much support on this, is because the Russians have also been killing people in other countries and their own intelligence blames Russia too.

            3. Voland's right hand Silver badge

              Like that jet fighter that shot down MH17 was?

              FFS, they even have form,

              The file on the 1996 novichok murder and the mob involvement as well as the fact that both cia and MI5 had access to it is finally on the front page of the guardian.

              Only 14 days after it was published by the Russian press. Only 11 days after I send it to them. And after a total of around 500 down votes on the register for daring to mention it.

              Damn... Why is it so difficult for people to admit that a liar ten times called Boris is most likely lying the 11th.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Voland,

          ... "However, that the Russians are the only people to have manufactured it which rather narrows it down, doesn't it?"...

          ... "As a chemist by education I can tell you it does not."....

          As I'm sure you know, there are a great many "fingerprints" that can be and generally are left in the composition of complex molecules.

          -- A practising industrial chemist

      2. heyrick Silver badge

        "No, they identified it chemically as being the Russian Novichok agent. They can't say that it came from Russia because the chemical composition is just that, and it does not include transit logs. However, that the Russians are the only people to have manufactured it which rather narrows it down, doesn't it?"

        One important piece of the puzzle missing. In order to positively identify it, you would need to have either a sample or the precise chemical composition. And if you have either of those and happen to be involved with a biological weapons testing facility, it is not going to be out of the realms of possibility of them making some of their own.

        1. fajensen
          Pint

          It would be professional incompetence if Porter Down didn't run some batches of the stuff. At least enough for NMR, RAMAN spectroscopy and whatever else one uses to identify chemicals quickly.

          Working out how it kills and maybe countermeasures would also be within the scope of Porter Down. It is a bloody disgrace that we need to have such a facility but since we do need it, it has to keep up with developments.

          ---

          I bet everyone working there always brings their drinks with them to the loo. I would!

        2. TheVogon

          "In order to positively identify it, you would need to have either a sample or the precise chemical composition"

          Vil Mirzayanov gave them all the details years ago.

      3. heyrick Silver badge

        "2) Who else had the method, motive and opportunity to assassinate an ex Russian spy"

        Since you raise the point, am I the only one who finds this to be a horribly messy excuse for an assassination that appears to have "Russia did it" written all over the place in magic marker? I'm quite sure a country with the resources of Russia (not to mention the history of spy/KGB cloak and dagger bullshit) could devise a hundred ways of killing this bloke without the apparently ridiculously obvious trail.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          I'd really like to agree with you, but Polonium says otherwise.

        2. Voland's right hand Silver badge

          "2) Who else had the method, motive and opportunity to assassinate an ex Russian spy"

          One looking for pardon and carrying the goods needed for said pardon to be granted?

          His employers whoever they maybe - yes. Whoever was to grant the pardon - not really.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          I'm quite sure a country with the resources of Russia (not to mention the history of spy/KGB cloak and dagger bullshit) could devise a hundred ways of killing this bloke without the apparently ridiculously obvious trail.

          Exactly. They WANTED it to be clear they'd done it. Revenge, of itself, is a worthless thing because it doesn't undo a betrayal, and Putin and his his equally clever, equally charmless acolytes know that But by tracking down and killing every single person who's crossed you, if necessary decades later, and on the other side of the world, that is (to these people) a useful message that persuades people that they can betray you, but they will be found and killed.

          If the bloke had just died in an apparently accidental car crash, that's achieves nothing and could/would have been overlooked. In this case, Putin has had a field day, by recognising beforehand that the bumbling fuckwits of the British government would react the way they did, and choosing to try and kill the bloke in manner that they couldn't overlook even if they wanted to.

          1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

            by recognising beforehand that the bumbling fuckwits of the British government would react the way they did

            I suspect that. in this case at least, they badly miscalculated. They probably expected the UK government to respond like they did in the polonium incident (ie lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth and very little else).

            The fact that this incident has lead to lots of other countries expelling Russian spies^W diplomats will have disrupted things considerably for the FSB & GRU. And most countries don't do that lightly - better the devil you know and all that!.

          2. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge

            They WANTED it to be clear they'd done it

            There are far better ways of doing that, making it obvious they did it with greater plausible deniability than using Novichok.

            Putin could be on TV saying "I guess that's the sort of thing which could happen if we wanted it to", giving a wink while knowing there would never be the evidence to prove they had, and there would be far less of a case the international community could get behind.

            I don't buy it. It's no more convincing than claiming Ahmadinejad or the Kim Jongs are utterly insane and reckless, desire to kill us all even if it means their own country's annihilation.

        4. veti Silver badge

          I'm quite sure a country with the resources of Russia (not to mention the history of spy/KGB cloak and dagger bullshit) could devise a hundred ways of killing this bloke without the apparently ridiculously obvious trail.

          Yes, of course they could. But that would miss the point.

          Rubbing out one measly agent, who has long since shot his payload and done his damage, was not the point. The point was the message it sends: to other defectors ("you're not safe, we can get you anywhere"), to potential defectors ("we do not forgive"), and to Russian voters ("we're so strong, you're only safe in Russia"). The message to the UK public ("your crappy 'democracy' can't protect you") was a bonus.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            The point was the message it sends: to other defectors ("you're not safe, we can get you anywhere"), to potential defectors ("we do not forgive"), and to Russian voters ("we're so strong, you're only safe in Russia"). The message to the UK public ("your crappy 'democracy' can't protect you") was a bonus.

            Can you stop the "Vlad cooks children on neurotoxic gas" nonsense - this is not the daily mail. It actually achieves Vlad's aims by the way. He is playing the long game (as usual).

            He, quite deliberately, has allowed everyone opposed to him to move out to London. Russia experienced 12 years of disorganized mob rule under Eltsin. During those years fortunes were made and none of them was made by honest means. There was always a dark side and only the toughest motherf*ckers with the best mob soldiers survived. Instead of fighting them, he allowed them to move to the UK. A lot of them took some "family atomics" with them. It was trivial to obtain them during those years. Salaries in research institutions were not paid for 6+ months, people were starving and had nothing to feed their children with. So cases like selling 9 sealed 0.2g batches of Novichok to the Chechen Islamist terrorists, mob and a NATO rep (this is from the 1996 archive criminal file of the director of the lab which worked on it) was part of the daily routine. There is a LOT of that sitting in freezers around Kensington and Chelsea.

            This way he has solidified his rule without a single open conflict bar Yukos. There is however a silver lining for all of his opponents. When your assets are obtained via mob means and you are not there to enforce the iron fist you lose them over time. That is what has been happening for the last 7 years or so. They are now down to a couple of bank accounts and their mansions resulting in them being rather unsurprisingly at each others throats. The sanctions and the tightening up of regs on money transfers from Russia have accelerated the process as well.

            In addition to this, he has successfully poisoned UK politics. The remaining lot will sponsor anything in the name of getting back to their assets and paying Boris and Cameron 150k for a "tennis match" is frankly in the "small change" range. Election money. Referendum money. You name it - it is all there and it is all legal now as we have granted them citizenship. That makes Vlad immensely happy because the strength of the UK "pull" is getting to the point when it will split off from the rest of the Eu. There is a substantial difference between UK and the rest of the Eu - UK one of the few countries which is not dependent on something from Russia. Nearly everyone else is importing something - commodities, raw materials, energy, etc. Once UK is out (which is achieved naturally) Vlad will achieve his aim. And have the last laugh.

            At that point he will completely shut off the flow to the mob he has successfully moved to the UK and that is when the real fun (including shootouts with Ak47s in Kensington and Chelsea) will begin.

            So please, continue helping him by repeating the Daily Mail statements. You are an excellent soldier to his cause.

        5. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

          could devise a hundred ways of killing this bloke without the apparently ridiculously obvious trail

          Unless they wanted it to be obvious (to the right people[1]) that it was them. As a warning to others..

          [1] Ex-spies, former oligarchs now living in the West and anyone else who might have the ability to embarass Putin..

        6. GIRZiM

          >I'm quite sure a country with the resources of Russia (not to mention the history of spy/KGB cloak and dagger bullshit) could devise a hundred ways of killing this bloke without the apparently ridiculously obvious trail.

          I'm not saying you don't have a good point but, actually, culturally that's quite typically Russian. It is, historically speaking, very Russian to do the whole 'scorched earth' excessive force thing - a man must be seen to be powerful and so must the nation. As, ZanzibarRastapopulous said, they like to send a message.

          Also, it's equally Russian to be surprised when you learn that the fellow attacking you is doing so because you cut his brother's head off with a chainsaw. You understand that he has to defend his family's honour, yes, but he doesn't need to get so emotional about it. I think it's because they make such a fuss themselves, make such emotional displays, that they attribute a certain amount of 'theatre' to everyone's actions and words - or so said my Russian friend in the past anyway (of course it's entirely possible he was a sociopath himself - he was Russian after all ; )

          So there's quite probably a certain amount of "What are you making such a fuss about? Everybody does it. We do it, You do it. You know we know you know we know you do it. Why all the theatre?" on the part of Russia.

          Did they do it? Very possibly..

          Why? Because they're Russian and one of their own betrayed them and it's a matter of honour and pour encourager les autres: you can run but you can't hide; betray us and we will get you, no matter how long it takes - we'll get your family and your dog too and the man who gave your young daughter an apple from his stall in the market when she smiled at him (because the community was made aware not to help them in any way and he did).

          You can't help having a bit of grudging admiration for them for that actually - if you're gonna send a message to people, don't mess around and leave it open to question, say it loud and say it proud: YOU'RE DEAD, MUTHAF*CKA!

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        > they identified it chemically as being the Russian Novichok agent.

        Or did they actually say it was substance of a type like Novichok?

        > Who else has access to the Russian stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction.

        Where is the proof it came from a Russian stockpile? Porton Down and others have enough to kill someone. No need for a stockpile.

        > Who else had the method, motive and opportunity

        Any state actor who wanted to suggest Russia is a threat to the west. Including ourselves.

      5. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @Peter2 - As an ex-soviet republic

        Ukraine had access to a lot of military stuff made by soviets. Just saying!

      6. martinusher Silver badge

        @Peter2

        The formula for this agent was first published decades ago.

        >Who else has access to the Russian stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction.

        "Stockpile" is a bit meaningless when you're talking microgram quantities. It was probably made in a lab somewhere (although given its potency, or rather, lack of, it could have been made anywhere.)

        >Who else had the method, motive and opportunity....

        Just another random theory. Like "Who had the method, motive and opportunity" to create a heightened Cold War mindset with a false flag attack?". If you want plausible, but unproven, theories there are a lot about, including these two being involved in investigating links between companies like Cambridge Analytica and leading politicians. I daresay the truth will come out in time.

      7. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Russians

        First, I do find it the more likely explanation that the Russians are behind this.

        But to say they are the only ones to have manufactured it.. I am sure that is incorrect. The reason being that the UK has an antidote/cure/treatment for it, and that it was promptly applied to the victims.

        So we know for sure how to make it, and how to cure it..

        The first one allows us to make it, should we want to, and the second means that either we were given he antidote by someone who had manufactured and tested it or we already had it, so we have made it, at least in the past.

        1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

          Re: Russians

          The reason being that the UK has an antidote/cure/treatment

          Having a treatment/antidote does not mean having the ability to make the poison in the first place. Once the physiological method of action is known then the treatment can be derived.

          1. Solmyr ibn Wali Barad

            Re: Russians

            "Having a treatment/antidote does not mean having the ability to make the poison in the first place."

            Especially if the antidote isn't very specific (having been designed as an antidote for one specific poison).

            Atropine has been available for many decades if not more. Well, definitely longer, because it's an extract of the deadly nightshade. Strong poison by itself. But it's useful against a good number of conditions, like pesticide poisonings and some heart problems.

            I don't know whether ambulance crews in the UK carry it, but it's still part of the standard ambulance kit in my neck of woods.

        2. TheVogon

          Re: Russians

          " The reason being that the UK has an antidote/cure/treatment for it, and that it was promptly applied to the victims."

          No they dont, and no it wasnt. There is no known antidote to Novachok.

      8. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        "1) Who else has access to the Russian stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction. (which one hopes/assumes to be better secured than business networks that we run)"

        On the other hand, why would Russia use a weapon so easily and obviously directly traceable with a high level of certainty back to them with other possible methods available to them which would be untraceable in the noise other than the suspicion that no one else would likely have motive to go after Skripal?

        It's very puzzling. Especially if the Wikipedia article on Novichek is accurate since that implies a number of states, including the US and Iran might well have the capability to create and use it to stir up shit.

        1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

          why would Russia use a weapon so easily and obviously directly traceable with a high level of certainty back to them

          To discourage others. It's not rocket science: "cross us and you'll die in a horrible fashion".

      9. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Who else had the method, motive and opportunity

        Last time I commented on that, I didn't see any strong motive for either the UK or Russian government to create a big diplomatic spat.

        Now we've seen ...

        - in domestic UK politics, Corbyn once again at war with his party. And they threw the antisemitism row at him while he was off-balance with the Russian story. Corbyn-haters have demonstrated a motive.

        - the second-stage brexit agreement has escaped any substantial media scrutiny, as they all focus on the Russia spat instead. That's a huge motive for those involved in negotiating brexit.

        Both those should have been predictable to people close enough to the relevant action.

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Alert

          Now we've seen ...

          Wow!

          On this morning's Today programme[1], just after seven, John Humphreys interviewing Malcolm Rifkind. Rifkind beautifully avoided saying anything (apart from the customary ad-hominems about Russia and Putin), while also avoiding refusing to answer Humphreys. Just insinuating an attack on Corbyn, and insinuating seeds of doubt about the cousin Victoria Skripal.

          A masterly performance compared to the squirming to which Humphreys customarily reduces evasive politicians when they stick to a script. This disingenuous behaviour from the UK government is precisely what convinces me they're being dishonest about this.

          [1] BBC radio flagship news&current affairs programme.

          1. EnviableOne

            Malcolm Rifkin is a seasoned professional, and skillful practionioner of the politions art, having been through the benches of parliment, he's seen the games and played them all.

            John Humphrys is a buldog, not one to work his way round an opponent, which is why he never got to do newsnight.

            Paxo, Kirsty Walk or Evan Davis would have got more from him.

      10. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        I'm sure it was the Russians. But that's not the point: we were initially told that Porton Down said something which they didn't say (and, obviously, can not say), and that kind of bullshit from politicians just corrodes trust.

        'On bullshit' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Bullshit) is well-worth reading on this: it seems to describe exactly what is going on here.

      11. Not also known as SC
        Headmaster

        They can't say that it came from Russia because the chemical composition is just that, and it does not include transit logs.

        Years ago while studying chemistry for my degree I attended a talk about chemical analysis. One method, which IIRC was liquid gas chromatography, was claimed to be so sensitive that it could measure impurities in the chemicals created by the material the reaction vessel was made from. This lead on to who had manufactured the vessels and all sort of other things. Assuming that this wasn't just hype, it should be possible with a sample of the chemical to determine quite accurately where it came from.

Page:

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Other stories you might like