back to article Details of 600,000 foreign visitors to UK go up in smoke thanks to shonky border database

The details of 600,000 foreign visitors have slipped through the cracks of the Home Office's database thanks to its "shambolic" exit checks system. A report (PDF) by the chief inspector of borders and immigration, David Bolt, examined the department's Initial Status Analysis (ISA) system database and how ISA-produced data had …

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  1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

    Guardian has more details.

    There are some serious ridiculous numbers like missing 70% of Chinese visitors and someone chasing down the Chinese to be so kind and provide us with cross-reference information to scratch out those which left legitimately (nearly all of them by the way).

    I really do not see how this will work for "Taking control of our borders".

    1. Aitor 1

      Re: Guardian has more details.

      A solution would be to give an ID card to long term residents and get biometrics from all visitors.

      but then, you would need to get biometrics on the exit too.

      1. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

        Re: Biometrics and false positives

        Try asking Jean Charles de Menezes what could possibly go wrong.

      2. Voland's right hand Silver badge

        Re: Guardian has more details.

        but then, you would need to get biometrics on the exit too.

        That does not help. It is absolutely pointless to collect anything at the border unless you can ask for it any point at a later date. In the UK you cannot - there is no legal requirement to identify yourself on the spot to police or other authorities which exists in nearly all (if not all) other countries in the world.

        So how much you have collected at the border is irrelevant. Those who want to disappear in one of the many "indigenous communities" around Britain will do so. This is in addition to those who are fluent in English to a point where they can "go native" in the middle of any suburbian street.

        1. MrXavia

          Re: Guardian has more details.

          "there is no legal requirement to identify yourself on the spot to police or other authorities "

          Good, because we should remain a free society, so many of our freedoms are being eroded, we need to fight to keep the few we have..

          I think we need to open our borders to those who want to work, just don't give them access to our benefits system until they have been here and contributed for 5 years.

          The restrictions on international students that were introduces were idiotic and harm the country

          The restrictions on foreign spouses I see as a violation of human rights and just plain decency.

          1. John G Imrie

            Re: Guardian has more details.

            I think we need to open our borders to those who want to work, just don't give them access to our benefits system until they have been here and contributed for 5 years.

            I'd go with the employer having to pay for insurance that would cover medical bills on the NHS and any thing else we deem necessary that should normally be paid out of NI contributions, for the first 5 years of an immigrants stay here.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Guardian has more details.

              "I think we need to open our borders to those who want to work,"

              Or how about not doing that and just making employers pay market rates for labour? Many of our inner cities are already like visiting a third world country.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Guardian has more details.

                Many of our inner cities are already like visiting a third world country.

                Not so! Most third world countries don't have Victorian terraced houses, and generally better weather....

                (For the record I live up the road from one of the worst of these inner city zones Harehills of Leeds if you feel like depressing yourselves.)

                Annon because I still to take the bus through the area.

                1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
                  Unhappy

                  Annon because I still to take the bus through the area.

                  Then if you're > 26 according to M. Thatcher you are a failure.

                  Understand the model for bus operators by Thatchers advisor was that in Chile.

                  Not that of a country in the G7.

                2. Loud Speaker

                  Re: Guardian has more details.

                  > Most third world countries don't have Victorian terraced houses, and generally better weather....

                  Nor do they rely on on-line buzzword matching for recruitment of technical experts to local jobs

                  (although quite a few rely on "uncles" already in the company for talent spotting)

                3. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Guardian has more details.

                  "Not so! Most third world countries don't have Victorian terraced houses, and generally better weather...."

                  But they do get dark very early!

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Guardian has more details.

            Those have always been my positions here on the USian side of the pond. I'd add that serving in the military is an automatic path to citizenship. Here in California, we're going to our economy collapse without immigrant workers at both ends of the spectrum: agriculture which is desperately trying to switch to robots where possible; Silicon Valley and our universities post-grad researchers. But Trump....

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Guardian has more details.

          > It is absolutely pointless to collect anything at the border unless you can ask for it any point at a later date.

          Not strictly true. It would show that, for example, a person who'd entered the UK on a time-limited visa hadn't over-stayed. If they were to apply for another visa in the future then approval could be quicker, on the basis that they had established a level of trustworthiness.

          This of course assumes that the system might benefit the individual in some small way - which of course is unlikely.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Guardian has more details.

          > In the UK you cannot - there is no legal requirement to identify yourself on the spot to police

          That's nice. Too bad they already know who you are. Unless you're a Chinese tourist.

        4. Noonoot

          Re: Guardian has more details.

          "Those who want to disappear in one of the many "indigenous communities" around Britain will do so. This is in addition to those who are fluent in English to a point where they can "go native" in the middle of any suburbian street."

          Is that a polite way of saying that UK has so many non-nationals that English isn't even the common language?

        5. This post has been deleted by its author

          1. Dan 55 Silver badge

            Re: Guardian has more details.

            In most EU countries, for starters, carrying ID (in the form of an ID card if you're a resident, or valid passport if you're a foreigner) is mandatory.

            Not quite true, in 19 out of 33 countries they are optional or don't exist. The UK is just crap when it comes to proving people's identity and tracing someone's history, so much so that naturalised Windrush children who came to the UK when they were five or so and are now in their 60s are now getting caught up in yet another Home Office witch-hunt.

    2. Dan 55 Silver badge
      Devil

      Re: Guardian has more details.

      Well the current Home Office headline in The Guardian is that a father is being deported by the Home Office over an accounting error, something which HMRC didn't fine him for, and something nasty will happen to his autistic daughter as most people don't know what autism is in Pakistan.

      That is "taking control of our borders".

      What did John Reid say over a decade ago... "the Home Office is not fit for purpose".

      1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        Unhappy

        What did John Reid say over a decade ago... "the Home Office is not fit for purpose".

        Unless of course it's "purposes" are

        Inciting hatred against foreigners

        Improving sales of tabloid newspapers encouraging Brexit.

        Avoiding blame for the incompetent motherf**kers in senior management and the succession of sock puppets who've been the Minister (T. May being the last) by blaming the EU.

        Expanding surveillance for 24/7/365/ of everyone in the UK.

        In which case it's doing an outstanding job. Otherwise I'd call it a "Centre for Evil" in the UK.

        1. Chris G

          Re: What did John Reid say over a decade ago... "the Home Office is not fit for purpose".

          For 6 years of that decade, the Tin Lady was in charge, the remaining 2 years to date have been her imagination free friend Amber. I could never figure out how she could become PM and based on the subsequent performance, I still don't.

          1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
            Unhappy

            "I could never figure out how she could become PM "

            Easy.

            Govists hated Johnsonistas who hated Daviesites who hated Govists

            As May had never shown any inclination to independent thought she was the compromise candidate. Not actively disliked (very much) by anyone.

            That works fine at Ministerial level but once you make it to 10 Downing Street you actually have to set the direction, not follow it.

            And no one's ever told her how to do that.

            Meanwhile JRM circles ever closer, like a well dressed and well spoken shark. Or fanatic of the Inquisition, which is what he sounds like if you stop listening to how he sounds and listen to what he's saying. The complete ban on all abortions (including victims of rape and incest) gives you some idea what he means by "Radical social policy."

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Guardian has more details.

      >The Home Office said that a lack of evidence of departure was not confirmation that an individual remained in the country

      I think most of them are driving Ubers.

  2. Aitor 1

    Problems

    One of the problems these systems have is with people that have several ids, or changing passport numbers.

    I hold two nationalities, so two id cards, and two passports, and the passport numbers change with time as you renew them.

    So I might enter the UK with a Dutch passport, exit with a Spanish id and get back with a dutch id.

    On top of that, I have renewed both passports while living in the uk.

    Good luck tracking me.

    Now, I did give all this info to the authorities when I registered to get my NIN.. but these numbers do change with time... so how do they know I am the same guy? by name? mine is super easy to track, but it is not exactly the same in both ids.

    1. phuzz Silver badge

      Re: Problems

      Most countries where you have to get a visa or a stamp in your passport won't let you out unless you're showing them the visa or the entry stamp, so switching passports is not an option.

      That's not currently a problem with your two EU passports in the UK, but in a years time who knows how easy it will be for an EU citizen to visit Britain?

      1. Solviva

        Re: Problems

        "Most countries where you have to get a visa or a stamp in your passport won't let you out unless you're showing them the visa or the entry stamp, so switching passports is not an option."

        I tried in Macedonia, on leaving the passport checking dude looked at me a bit funny and asked if I had another passport (the one I entered on :P).

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Problems

          <Anon for obvious reasons>

          My partner has German and Brazilian citizenship, and has just applied for UK citizenship. While she uses her German passport to leave and enter the UK, if she's heading to Brazil she obviously gets on the plane as a German and gets off as a Brazilian - as do many of her Europe based compatriots.

          1. Teiwaz

            Re: Problems

            ets on the plane as a German and gets off as a Brazilian

            I hate it when people hog the toilet on long-haul flights for unnecessary primping.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Problems

              I hate it when people hog the toilet on long-haul flights for unnecessary primping.

              Especially the ones that throw their towel on it as soon as they get on board.

          2. yoganmahew

            Re: Problems

            @Anon

            "<Anon for obvious reasons>

            While she uses her German passport to leave and enter the UK, if she's heading to Brazil she obviously gets on the plane as a German and gets off as a Brazilian - as do many of her Europe based compatriots."

            And it's perfectly legal; you'll find a lot of dual nationals do this - NRIs (Non-Resident Indians) going to the US for example - use one passport one way, and departing the US, and another for arrival in India. Of course, the mileage varies by country; some restrict dual nationality either totally, to one other or not between specific countries. IANAL.

        2. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

          Re: Problems

          I tried in Macedonia, on leaving the passport checking dude looked at me a bit funny and asked if I had another passport

          That should be the same everywhere, even without visas or stamps, it's generally not a great idea to mix'n'match. Passports are scanned at exit & entry and anyone trying to leave when they apparently didn't enter (or vice-versa) should get a red flag). Physical stamps on paper passport pages are a very outdated mechanism now, I suspect they're only there as a backup to the electronic controls.

          Also remember the US position that if a US citizen who also has, say, an Irish passport uses it to enter an EU country they may not be able to call on a US embassy for help if they get into trouble. They will be politely invited to contact the Irish consulate, since they entered the country by claiming to be Irish. Other countries take a similar position.

          1. Len

            Re: Problems

            Agreed, generally you should use a single passport for an entire journey to prevent getting into trouble. You can get into serious issues in some countries (like the US for instance) if you travel in on passport A but travel out on passport B as they might consider you to have never left the country.

            There are complexities with it, though. For instance, the US requires people who hold an American passport in addition to another to use their American passport to come in. This is what got Boris Johnson to be denied entry to the US a couple of years ago as he tried to enter on a British passport which clearly stated that he was born in New York. The border official asked him if he had denounced his American Citizenship, which he hadn't, and Johson was sent back to the UK on the first available flight.

            1. fredj

              Re: Problems

              New York is a hamlet in the East Lindsey district of Lincolnshire, England, in the parish of Wildmore in the Lincolnshire Fens on the B1192 road near Coningsby, 11 1⁄2 miles (18.5 km) north from Boston. At the 2001 Census, its population was less than 150.

              1. Solviva

                Re: Problems

                I spent millenium-not-bug new year in that very New York village hall!

              2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

                Re: Problems

                "New York is a hamlet in the East Lindsey district of Lincolnshire, "

                According to the Wikipedia..."New York is a small village situated in Tyne and Wear in the North East of England and is part of the urban conurbation of North Tyneside."

                Not far away is Washington, Philadelphia, Ontario, Albany etc. :-)

            2. lowjik

              Re: Problems

              I had a strange issue once with leaving/entering the US. A long time ago I went on holiday to the British Virgin Isles but had to get a visa to travel through the united states, booked last minute had to go via New York JFK and San Juan Puerto Rico! Anywho, we were hungover to buggery on the last day and I didn't notice that the little green slip stapled in my passport wasn't removed on leaving. No biggy right?

              Fast forward a couple of years later and I had a gig installing hardware and software for my companie's new venture in the US, Greenville to be precise. I arrive at immigration in Charlotte with a business visa. The officer inspects my passport and asks me what I am doing in Puerto Rico - I casually explained I traveled through there on holiday and then proceeded to get a massive grilling about who I was and what I was doing and why. Turns out it looks like I am still in San Juan all because someone forgot to remove some stapled slip of green paper from my passport. Which I could (should?) have removed myself, if I had known.

              Can't really rely on that can they? This was post 2001 too

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Problems

                Be thankful you didn't do something like that with Mexico. You can do daily crossings on a work visa without much hassle, but on your last trip, make sure you get a Salida stamp to match your entrada stamp. Otherwise, when you next visit, you owe a fine of some pesos per day past your exit.

            3. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Problems

              a choice of passports you use at the moment is, sometimes, irrelevant, it's how the "host" country treats your nationality that matters, i.e. some countries take a stand that, no matter what other nationality you hold, if you hold THEIR nationality, you are THEIR nationals. With all the good, the bad and the ugly implications. Now, if you enter a 3rd country... that would be interesting, how that country treats you. I suppose, by your declaration, i.e. which passport you show at their borders.

            4. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

              Re: Problems

              "This is what got Boris Johnson to be denied entry to the US a couple of years ago as he tried to enter on a British passport which clearly stated that he was born in New York."

              His real problem was probably talking to the immigration officer who promptly decided he couldn't possibly be a native English speaker.

            5. John Smith 19 Gold badge
              Coat

              "and Johson was sent back to the UK on the first available flight."

              So, "Johnson* whipped out at airport" would be a valid headline?

              *I do find it very helpful that it's an old US slang term for the male member.

          2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Problems

            "Physical stamps on paper passport pages are a very outdated mechanism now, I suspect they're only there as a backup to the electronic controls."

            As far as I can make out from TFA that suspicion seems to be founded on undue optimism - and likely to remain so until the Home Office get a clue.

            1. Loud Speaker

              Re: Problems

              I suspect they're only there as a backup to the electronic controls.

              Obviously needed, owning to total inability to engage competent subcontractors to do anything electronic involving data - other than lose it.

          3. Dr Scrum Master

            Re: Problems

            Also remember the US position that if a US citizen who also has, say, an Irish passport uses it to enter an EU country they may not be able to call on a US embassy for help if they get into trouble. They will be politely invited to contact the Irish consulate, since they entered the country by claiming to be Irish. Other countries take a similar position.

            But for tax purposes you're always a US tax payer no matter where in the world you are and which passport you used to enter or exit that country.

            Taxation and representation?

          4. Stork Silver badge

            Re: Problems

            How would they know if the person is resident in one Schengen country and goes to the embassy in another?

          5. This post has been deleted by its author

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Problems

        "Most countries where you have to get a visa or a stamp in your passport won't let you out unless you're showing them the visa or the entry stamp,"

        So how do they deal with a replacement passport?

        1. JimBlueMK

          Re: Problems

          When you travel as a holiday maker the chances of you needing to renew your passport are pretty small. If you live in a country you have to get your visa transferred or take the old passport with you.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Problems

            "When you travel as a holiday maker the chances of you needing to renew your passport are pretty small."

            But not zero. Accidents can happen. However if the system is being developed by Agile coping with it can be left to a later sprint and it's just tough luck if your passport gets stolen before then.

      3. Craigie

        Re: Problems

        'Most countries where you have to get a visa or a stamp in your passport won't let you out unless you're showing them the visa or the entry stamp, so switching passports is not an option.'

        Only if you are brown.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Problems

          "Only if you are brown."

          I think you will find there is no problem leaving in that case. Its coming in thats difficult.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Problems

      I've been wondering about this myself. I'm currently using my Irish ancestry to get passports fro my self and family to ensure my kids have all of the flexibility that Farage and co. have striven to remove from the rest of the population (Was it ever confirmed that he had availed himself of an EU passport thanks to his German wife?). I can imagine (post Brexit) leaving the UK for Europe on an EU passport (no need for visa) but returning on the a UK one for the shorter queues, etc.

      Of course that might show as leaving but not returning depending on how the records are tied up.

      Brexit - what could possibly go wrong?

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