What a load of Trump...
"They have desensitized people to the value of human life, to the dignity of women, to the dignity of human decency."
So...just like your president then ?
Kentucky gov: Violent video games, not guns, to blame for Florida school massacre
The governor of the US state of Kentucky, Matt Bevin, has blamed violent video games for the Florida high-school shooting that left 17 people dead this week. In an interview Bevin, who is – quelle surprise – endorsed by the National Rifle Association, said that the shooting wasn't linked to the ability of the shooter to …
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Saturday 17th February 2018 11:51 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: What a load of Trump...
There are 300,000,000+ guns in circulation. Legislation won't make most of them go away. Normally when there is any threat of gun legislation sales go up so we are really talking about generations before enough guns are out of the system to stop it being very easy to get hold of guns. Sadly stopping legal sales, though a step in the right direction, isn't going to stop people like this perpetrator getting their hands on them.
We really are talking about mental illness here. You can get guns elsewhere in the world (even in the UK) yet they are seldom if ever used to commit these atrocities and related knife incidents are thankfully incredibly rare too . The US seems to be different. Blaming guns or video games is oversimplifying the problem. The US has a deeper cultural problem that needs to be cured.
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Saturday 17th February 2018 12:47 GMT Ken Hagan
Re: What a load of Trump...
"There are 300,000,000+ guns in circulation. [...] You can get guns elsewhere in the world (even in the UK) yet they are seldom if ever used to commit these atrocities [...]"
Well on the one hand ...
This guy appears to have walked into a store and walked out a few minutes later with something that you probably couldn't get in the UK or, if you could, would have required the blessing of your local police chief and convincing a psychiatrist that you had a legitimate use for it.
The result is that even in Northern Ireland, which is a special case, only about 100,000 people (out of 1,800,000) own guns (about 380,000 of them). That's about 5%. I'm not sure if accurate figures exist for the US, but apparently (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/06/04/a-minority-of-americans-own-guns-but-just-how-many-is-unclear/) around a third of the population regularly admit to owning guns (averaging, again, about 3 or 4 each).
So on the other hand ...
That's about 5 or 6 times smaller than the US figure then, but the consequent rate of gun crime is, I think much lower. I would also point to the Swiss experience where the laws are much more like the US (and some cantons actively encourage serving militia to keep guns at home) but the rate of gun crime is much lower. Indeed, it appears that most gun-related deaths in Switzerland are suicides.
On the face of it, then, there does appear to be a cultural difference in the US. (The obvious difference is the reverence in which the Constitution is held and, by extension, its Second Amendment. Anyone trying to tighten gun laws in the US first has to convince everyone that they aren't undermining the bit of the Constitution that keeps America free from tyranny. That shouldn't be particularly hard if you are just trying to keep semi-automatic weapons away from hormone-ridden teenagers, but the question doesn't even arise in most other countries and most of the rest of the world finds the US attitude utterly incredible.)
However, back on the first hand ...
I would expect that it would be relatively safe to give a gun to most adults in any country. However, as you increase gun ownership and relax checks, eventually you start allowing them for a small number of people who are very much less safe. I would expect the relationship between percentage-gun-ownership and amount-of-gun-crime to be so non-linear that it looks almost like a cliff edge.
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Sunday 18th February 2018 22:17 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: What a load of Trump...
"Indeed, it appears that most gun-related deaths in Switzerland are suicides."
The same is true for the US. Roughly two thirds of firearm homicides are self inflicted. Exactly what mix is suicide or clumsy handling is up for interpretation.
Slightly less dangerous than a swimming pool, slightly more dangerous than a sports car.
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Saturday 17th February 2018 13:23 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: What a load of Trump...
We really are talking about mental illness here.
Disagree with this. Saying it is a mental illness issue is an easy cop-out. If someone feels that they want to wipe out their place of employment, and who hasn't thought that way at some point, then if you live somewhere with gun control it is very difficult to get hold off a weapon and put these thoughts into action, even if you are planning ahead. If you want to commit suicide (one of the biggest gun death statistics IIRC) then by the time you get the gun it is too late and the 'need' to kill others, or yourself has passed for another day. Whereas in countries like the US the gun is easily obtained and it is so much easier to put murderous intentions into effect. We're lucky in countries in the UK because guns are hard to come by so we don't get the opportunity to kill each other so readily. However if the UK had the same gun controls as the USA we'd probably have just as many mass shootings as the US does.
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Saturday 17th February 2018 16:47 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: What a load of Trump...
"However if the UK had the same gun controls as the USA we'd probably have just as many mass shootings as the US does."
I doubt that. The US culture is largely to blame. But the UK comparison is only hypothetical.
Compare the US instead to other countries with high levels of gun ownership, such as Switzerland, Finland, Canada, Austria, you find relatively little gun crime.
What's specific to the US is three things: the casualness of gun ownership, the weak and amateurish regulation, and a bizarre tolerance of selling assault rifles to those with no valid reason to own such weapons.
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Monday 19th February 2018 08:47 GMT GruntyMcPugh
Re: What a load of Trump...
Ah, the Swiss reference is alive and well I see. It needs context. Switzerland has national service, so all able bodied blokes get basic training in the use of firearms. Then there's the fact that reservists keep rifles at home, and used to keep sealed packs of ammunition, with severe penalties for opening them without orders. I believe ammunition is now not kept at home. Sporting rifles are popular in Switzerland, but as mentioned already, the vast majority have had training in the use of firearms. So all these factors skew the stats, and that's before we factor in socio-economics, like a national health system.
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Monday 19th February 2018 16:24 GMT Eddy Ito
Re: What a load of Trump...
If someone feels that they want to wipe out their place of employment, and who hasn't thought that way at some point,
That's some disturbing stuff there AC. I highly doubt that most people have felt a desire "to wipe out their place of employment" or even entertained the thought and I'd go as far as saying that is point where mental health professionals need to step in. Sure, we get all likely get upset at times but it's unlikely to rise to the level of wiping anyone out much less the entire place.
then if you live somewhere with gun control it is very difficult to get hold off a weapon and put these thoughts into action, even if you are planning ahead. If you want to commit suicide (one of the biggest gun death statistics IIRC) then by the time you get the gun it is too late and the 'need' to kill others, or yourself has passed for another day.
Suicide is the biggest cause of gun deaths in the US and it typically represents 2/3 of all gun deaths but then there is roughly an equal number of suicides in the US that don't involve guns as well. As for planning ahead that was certainly the case here as it is reported that he purchased the rifle about a year ago
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Sunday 18th February 2018 01:41 GMT TheVogon
Re: What a load of Trump...
" Legislation won't make most of them go away"
Australia made guns illegal without a license and reason to own (self defense was not a valid reason), and over a third of their guns were gone in a year and havent had a mass shooting since.
However the best first step would simply be to ban assault weapons. They have no legitimate civilian use.
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Sunday 18th February 2018 10:43 GMT John Smith 19
"we have a cultural problem in America,”"
Fu**ing right.
The "cultural problem" is you have a gun related death rate like Somalia, rather than a so called "First world" country and a culture that promotes getting a gun and shooting people as the solution if you're sad/mad/angry.
You also seem to have a large number of people with an inability to separate fantasy and reality (nicely summed up by the phrase "Iron Man is not a documentary.").
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Friday 16th February 2018 23:39 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: I know what trump is thinking
I certainly hope they aren't GIVING the teachers guns. A lot of teachers have to use their personal money to pay for basic supplies because their schools are so underfunded (even in the rich suburb I live in!) so if they start using those meager funds to buy guns I hope one of the teachers snaps and uses them on the politicians who came up with that brilliant idea!
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Saturday 17th February 2018 08:07 GMT Martin Summers
Re: I know what trump is thinking
Giving/allowing them to carry, I don't know if they had to pay for them or not but unfortunately it's a fact that they have them in a pilot state:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40353408
The most recent mention of the pilot is in this article some way down the page:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-42804741
We all live in this world and in the UK what happens in the USA good or bad has a habit of spreading. Luckily we don't make it easy for anyone to get a gun so our chances of mass shooting are great reduced. Strange that isn't it.
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Saturday 17th February 2018 10:08 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: I know what trump is thinking
Whether or not they are being given the guns, a few states are bound to allow it but it won't last long. Even if an armed teacher takes out a school shooter before he can do much damage, and the NRA crows about it, it is inevitable that an armed teacher will eventually kill a bystander attempting to hit a shooter (doesn't matter how much training you give them, unless they've served in a war zone no training can prepare them for the stress of the real thing) Or he'll have his gun stolen and used to kill a student, or worst of all an armed teacher will go on a spree of his own. People go on shooting sprees in their office, this is no different except you'd really make the news as a teacher allowed to carry killing kids - he'd have a couple dozen sitting ducks right in front of him so he could take out a bunch even if there was another armed teacher in the classroom across the hall.
The minute a child dies because a teacher was allowed to carry, even if some optimistic massaging of the numbers shows that many kids were "saved" by another teacher taking out a school shooter before he can kill too many students, it will be the end of the experiment.
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Saturday 17th February 2018 17:45 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: I know what trump is thinking
Practically, if teachers are armed with handguns and the killer has a rifle capable of long range accuracy, who has the word "target" written on him or her?
All this will do is ensure that any not totally deranged killer will shoot the teacher first, kill a few kids and then hide behind the survivors using them as human shields/hostages.
If I, a grade A wimp who hasn't fired a rifle in over 40 years, can work that out, what of a teenager who plays computer games?
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Sunday 18th February 2018 19:05 GMT W. Anderson
Re: I know what trump is thinking
The writer of this comment is "obviously" an American or American gun mentality sympathizer.
As is clearly explains in dozens of other comments, many other countries that are "so-called" developed nations do not have this ridiculous mass murder of innocent citizens (children) problem.
Many if not most Americans always extrapolate any very negative situation at home to be equivalent to or better than bad situations in other countries undergoing civil war, terrorism or complete chaos - just like what's happening in good 'ole USA.
The convenient saying of "Misery Loves Company" is appropriate for crass excuses from Americans, claiming they live in "Greatest nation on Earth", is "Exceptional" (I guess meaning better than any other) and "with Freedom and justice for All". (sic)
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Saturday 17th February 2018 09:34 GMT defiler
Remember, Oklahoma City and Bath Township both used materials readily available to any farmer.
Yep, and those are two examples from the last 91 years. How many mass shootings have there been in the USA in the last 91 weeks?
I appreciate playing Devil's Advocate and all, but you should try to pick your fights...
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Saturday 17th February 2018 12:51 GMT defiler
and I'm saying don't look at the weapon, look at the user.
Of course, but what I'm saying (and many others) is that these acts take a level of determination above and beyond what it appears to require in order to buy an assault rifle and empty it into a crowd.
Bad people will do bad things with what they have to hand. Some bad people, as you've said, will go out of their way to use every day materials to do truly reprehensible things. But it seems that the USA makes it unreasonably easy.
Good gun owners are not bad people. But the level of weapons that can be acquired easily is pretty unbelievable.
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Monday 19th February 2018 09:13 GMT GruntyMcPugh
Some stats would be nice,....
...you say knife attacks, but the stats don't back that up. In the USA in 2016, 7,105 people were murdered with handguns. Just 1,604 were killed with knives. Now, you cannot make the argument that in removing guns, knives will take over, figures for the UK show 186 knife homicides in 2015, so we have nowhere near the number of homicides that firearms facilitate.
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Monday 19th February 2018 11:34 GMT Tom 38
Where there's a will, there's a way. Remember, Oklahoma City and Bath Township both used materials readily available to any farmer.
1967 - Jayne Mansfield is killed when her car runs under the rear end of a tractor trailer. Since then, all trailers have a DOT bar at the rear to keep cars from going under them.
1982 - Seven people die when Tylenol packaging was tampered with. Since then, it takes a PhD, channel locks, and a sharp object to get into a bottle of pills.
2001 - One person attempts to blow up a plane with a shoe bomb. Since then, all air travelers have to take off their shoes for scanning before being allowed to board.
Since 1968 - 1,516, 863 people die from guns on American soil. Since then, the problem apparently can't be solved except with thoughts and prayers.
But no, please do continue with your whataboutery
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Tuesday 20th February 2018 04:31 GMT Charles 9
An Egypt Air was deliberately crashed with all killed and nothing happened afterward...AFTER 9/11. Why? Not much you can do when the killer was the PILOT.
Shoe Bomber? I'll raise you an Underwear Bomber and an A-hole Bomber.
And what about those recent deliberate crowd rams using cars and trucks?
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Friday 16th February 2018 22:35 GMT Ben Tasker
> There are games that literally replicate and give people the ability to score points for doing the very same thing that these students are doing inside of schools, where you get extra points for finishing someone off who’s lying there begging for their life
Rather difficult to amass those high bodycounts without the gun though, isn't it?
Kids in the UK also play those games, and yet we don't seem to have the equivalent happening.
And that's being generous and accepting the hypothesis that games are anything to do with this. Couldn't possibly be just that an angry, misguided and disenfranchised teen had access to an AR-15 and chose to take that anger out on those he felt had wronged him
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Friday 16th February 2018 23:05 GMT Anonymous Coward
Kids in the UK also play those games, and yet we don't seem to have the equivalent happening.
Since only the crims and police in the UK have guns the kids cant get them to use so they revert to using knives out on the street. I think the UK has one of the highest knife crime ratings per capita of anywhere.
Same reasons, frustrations over perceived wrongs/payback, different weapons.
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Friday 16th February 2018 23:56 GMT Alt C
would you like to cite where you got that claim? a quick google doesn't provide me with those stats, searching for 'knife crime per capita', what it does provide me with is evidence its very hard to compare one country with another as each may have a different definition of knife crime.
the only thing it does seem easy to compare are factual events - death by gun in country x & y.
To a greater or lesser extent you are probably right but it doesn't really alter the fact the UK is still safer than America, an AR-15 makes it easier to kill 17 people than a knife and politicians lie through their teeth to get their agenda across.
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Saturday 17th February 2018 01:59 GMT JLV
>highest knife crime ratings
>I think the UK has one of the highest knife crime ratings per capita of anywhere.
Canada has a lot of problems with stabbings too. And, guess what, when you look at our homicide rates, it's way lower than the US's. Guns make it too easy to kill, psychologically and also in terms of practical ease.
Of course, if you don't have guns, knives are next. What did you expect, genius? Teeth?
I'll trade my "inability to defend myself" and our "knife problems" anyday over your recurring bloodbaths. And I like guns myself, just would rather give up that access than live in the fear and paranoia you've all legislated yourself into.
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Monday 19th February 2018 21:11 GMT Anonymous Coward
UK can buy guns, in fact around 2015 we had nearly 2 million registered guns in this country - https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/number-guns-uk-record-high-6509872, out of a population of 70 million, that's not bad going.
Still not got anywhere the level of gun crime the USA has though..
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Biting the hand that feeds IT
