back to article MPs sceptical of plan for IT to save the day after UK quits customs union

MPs have slammed government's approach of touting tech "as its magic solution to customs post Brexit" in a Parliamentary debate. Mel Stride, financial secretary to the Treasury, was discussing the Cross Border Trade Bill, which will lay the groundwork for Blighty exiting the EU customs union. He said the government has …

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  1. Dan 55 Silver badge
    Facepalm

    There are no specs because the UK's trade agreement hasn't been negotiated with the EU yet

    And there won't be any specs till March 2019. So hopefully there'll also be a transitional period of at least two years with no deviation from EU law or the UK will be screwed.

    Or maybe the government is already doing speculative execution of possible solutions and the nearest one will be chosen in 2019 and then agiled into the final system/a smoking wreck (you choose). Expensive, though.

    Message to MPs: IT is not magic, you do have to tell computers what to do first.

    1. Christoph

      Re: There are no specs because the UK's trade agreement hasn't been negotiated with the EU yet

      But of course we can develop a full featured solution ready for Brexit despite having no idea what it will need to do until a few instants before Brexit. And all the companies which will use it will be able to make all their own systems compatible with it in the same amount of time.

      After all, our wonderful government has stated that it will happen, so that proves it.

      Don't listen to all that carping about the 'real world' - a Minister's casual comment overrides mere physical reality. Good grief, next you'll be saying that the NHS is in crisis merely because there's people dying on trolleys waiting for treatment, despite the prime minister clearly stating that there isn't a problem.

      1. W Donelson

        Re: There are no specs because the UK's trade agreement hasn't been negotiated with the EU yet

        Imagine mass starvation in the UK as the economy collapses and food trucks are backed up at ports while the food rots.

        Note: The last time the UK fed itself was in about 1885.

    2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: There are no specs because the UK's trade agreement hasn't been negotiated with the EU yet

      So hopefully there'll also be a transitional period of at least two years with no deviation from EU law or the UK will be screwed.

      As things stand at the moment the transitional period can only run until midnight of 31st December 2020 because otherwise the UK has to sign up for the next budget…

      Of course, the current fudge allows for a maintenance of the status quo sans voting rights because of the Irish question.

      Of course, Britain can take it! Cue stirring black and white footage of the new volunteer army of border and customs officers skillfully and knowledgeably handing everything. Thank goodness, Mr Chalmondely-Warner!

      1. Yes Me Silver badge
        Joke

        Re: There are no specs because the UK's trade agreement hasn't been negotiated with the EU yet

        The good people of Kent are looking forward to the day when both the M2 and M20 southbound are fully parked up with lorries waiting to clear Customs. The northbound lanes will be delightfully clear. Somewhere, a junior programmer will be puzzling over a faulty program written in something called RPG II that can't calulate the duty to be paid on a lorry load of HP Sauce...

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: There are no specs because the UK's trade agreement hasn't been negotiated with the EU yet

          "The northbound lanes will be delightfully clear."

          Maybe not. They'll probably be solid with parked incoming HGVs waiting for customs clearance of imports.

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: There are no specs because the UK's trade agreement hasn't been negotiated with the EU yet

            Maybe not. They'll probably be solid with parked incoming HGVs waiting for customs clearance of imports.

            Surely they will have to wait in the French half of the tunnel until cleared to enter Britannia ?

            1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

              Re: There are no specs because the UK's trade agreement hasn't been negotiated with the EU yet

              Surely they will have to wait in the French half of the tunnel until cleared to enter Britannia ?

              Probably, though there may also been a load abandoned by the non-English drivers who find themselves no longer welcome on the sceptred isle. Along with health and farm workers…

        2. SVV

          Re: There are no specs because the UK's trade agreement hasn't been negotiated with the EU yet

          "The good people of Kent are looking forward to the day when both the M2 and M20 southbound are fully parked up with lorries waiting to clear Customs. The northbound lanes will be delightfully clear. "

          Well there's your answer staring you right in the face then. Simply move all the lorries queued up on the southbound lanes onto the empty northbound ones. Problem solved! The French can then let all the lorries queued up on their northbound lanes use their clear southbound lanes to relieve the congestion on their side too. See - told you this was going t be easy!

    3. katrinab Silver badge

      Re: There are no specs because the UK's trade agreement hasn't been negotiated with the EU yet

      "Message to MPs: IT is not magic, you do have to tell computers what to do first."

      Alexa, write me a Brexit compatible Customs system.

      There, what's the problem?

      1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

        Re: Alexa, write me a Brexit compatible Customs system

        Oblig

        "I'm sorry Theresa/Jeremy (Corbyn not Hunt) I can't do that. You have not signed up for Amazon Prime Platinum-Diamond Edition. It is only £3b and as it is on sale, it is non-refundable. Shall I take the money now?"

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Go

          Re: Alexa, write me a Brexit compatible Customs system

          @Steve Davies 3

          The good news is that the PM gets Amazon Prime TV and free delivery on their Amazon.com purchases once they plunk down the 3 billion Sterling.

          1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

            Re: Alexa, write me a Brexit compatible Customs system

            The good news is that the PM gets Amazon Prime TV and free delivery on their Amazon.com purchases

            Except all the tat is held up at customs…

            I'm here all week, try the veal.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: There are no specs because the UK's trade agreement hasn't been negotiated with the EU yet

      Specs? For a Government IT system? Well yes, they might exist, but they are of course simply advisory, never binding, and subject to re-interpretation many times along the way. Gosh, just like......

    5. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      FAIL

      "There are no specs because the UK's trade agreement hasn't been negotiated with the EU"

      Wrong.

      That means the "Identify all areas that are subject to change. Create a structure that's flexible enough to accommodate those changes and use configuration files to configure those structures on the day."

      Which is probably how an in house team would do when they realized the PHB's aren't sure what they want yet.

      But in outsourced government con-tractor land that's going to need a decade of studies, requirements analyses, several rounds of "competitions" and f**k knows what else before they hand it to one of "The Usual Suspects (TM)".

      Good thing Brexit will likely long enough for this to enter service.

  2. John Crisp

    Like Laurel & Hardy

    "Well, here's another nice mess you've gotten me into"

    Or Douglas Adams...

    "I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go by."

    Oink, oink, flap, flap.

    1. Kane
      Joke

      Re: Like Laurel & Hardy

      "Oink, oink, flap, flap."

      I see the price of bacon has gone up again.

  3. 0laf

    Blah blah blah leverage cloud

    Blah blah digital services

    Blah blah blah transformational government

    Blah blah E-commerce solution

    Blah Big data AI informatics

    There all done, Minister feel all better now.

    Shiny electric magic make everything nice now, Brexit go bye bye

    I'll take my €5 million in non-consecutive notes thanks

    1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge
      Mushroom

      You forgot...

      I recommend Crapita to impliement it.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: You forgot...

        ATOS would make for better brexit irony and Daily Express indignation.

      2. Wensleydale Cheese

        Re: You forgot...

        You missed Agile.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: You forgot...

          "You missed Agile."

          We're saved! That'll fix it with a 5-day sprint.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I'm shocked the government hasn't tried to show their up-to-the-minute grasp of the fast moving world of technology by cramming 'blockchain' into their rigorously thought through magic borders.

      1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

        technology by cramming 'blockchain'

        With their advanced level of technology knowledge they probably think that 'blockchain' is the big metal thingy made of lots of links that can be raised to prevent ships coming into a harbour..

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Surely the governments answer to this should align with the NHS solution which is to tell people not to get ill, all we have to do is tell people not to trade and we will have no problems with customs.

    That there is government logic.

    1. Pen-y-gors

      No need to tell them not to trade, it's unlikely any businesses will be left who can trade...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      " tell people not to get ill"

      Sounding like my employers.... four days off in any twelve month period? Disciplinary to determine why you had time off....

  5. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

    but they took a clear decision

    I do wish Govt. politicians and the media would stop saying this. There was a vote and one side won, but it was a hardly "a clear decision". The difference between Yes and No was barely an error margin.

    1. LegalAlien

      Exactly...

      Also, leaving EU does not = leaving customers union (ask Turkey); it does not equal leaving EEA (Norway); as you say, we had a margin of error like result, which has given some charlatans the perceived authority to lurch off into extremely damaging territory all in the name of 'the will of the people'.

      1. Pen-y-gors

        Re: Exactly...

        Yep, ask Turkey - about the paperwork and days lorry drivers spend waiting for customs checks.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Exactly...

        don't worry - we know where they live.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: but they took a clear decision

      ..and for clarity is was a non-binding referendum. And lots of people who can vote in Parliamentary elections were not allowed to vote. Just for clarity.

      1. Martin Gregorie

        Re: but they took a clear decision

        ..and for clarity is was a non-binding referendum.

        Quite, and as that was written in clear legible text in the gummint-issued booklet explaining the referendum, I call all the MPs who claim the referendum was binding to be blatant, deliberate liars.

        1. Pen-y-gors

          Re: but they took a clear decision

          @Martin Gregorie

          written in clear legible text in the gummint-issued booklet

          Ah, but that booklet was probably written by 'experts' (people with GCSE Eng Lang) so obviously isn't relevant

          1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

            Re: but they took a clear decision

            Ah, but that booklet was probably written by 'experts'

            You mean all those PPE Grads that have not done a proper days work in their life.

            {PPE Grads naturally want to become and MP and PM again without ever having a proper job!}

        2. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: but they took a clear decision

          @ Martin Gregorie

          "Quite, and as that was written in clear legible text in the gummint-issued booklet explaining the referendum, I call all the MPs who claim the referendum was binding to be blatant, deliberate liars."

          That would be the prime minister at the time David Cameron.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: but they took a clear decision

          I call all the MPs who claim the referendum was binding to be blatant, deliberate liars.

          There's absolutely no point in having a referendum if you're going to ignore the result, so it was morally binding, if not legally so.

          1. Chemist

            Re: but they took a clear decision

            "There's absolutely no point in having a referendum if you're going to ignore the result, so it was morally binding, if not legally so."

            There is if a gov. is looking for an indication of strong/weak/marginal support for a proposal. In any case almost all ref. require a significant margin esp. for such a major change

          2. Yes Me Silver badge

            Re: but they took a clear decision

            "it was morally binding, if not legally so"

            No. If it had been based on an honest, factual, unemotional campaign by both sides, that might have been arguable, even for a 52% vote. But since one of the campaigns was based on emotional arguments, lies and fantasies, no. Also, since Corbyn's lips muttered Remain while his body language said Leave, a fair number of Labour voters were conned into supporting UKIP. Also, it is well known that many of the Leave votes were in fact simple protest votes against the Cameron regime.

            The referendum was discredited by the time the votes were counted. (And if the vote had gone 52% Remain, that would still be true, but it wouldn't matter as much; we'd simply still be dealing with UKIP as a political force, instead of planning to uninstall our international trade.)

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: but they took a clear decision

              But since one of the campaigns was based on emotional arguments, lies and fantasies, no.

              Yes, but fortunately that side lost.

              a fair number of Labour voters were conned into supporting UKIP

              Ah yes, they didn't vote the way your great intelligence thinks they should have, so they were conned.

              The referendum was discredited by the time the votes were counted.

              Are you for real? I've heard some daft, arrogant, remarks about Brexit, but that takes the cake. How do you get your head through the door in the mornings?

              The Brexit vote gave a more definite result than any recent general election.

              It gave a bigger majority to leave the EU, on a bigger turnout, than France did for joining the EU. Does that mean that the French entry to the EU was discredited as well?

        4. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

          Re: but they took a clear decision

          MPs who claim the referendum was binding to be blatant, deliberate liars

          Objection! Tautology..

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: but they took a clear decision

      There was a vote and one side won, but it was a hardly "a clear decision"

      It was a more clearly defined decision than any general election in the past 50-odd years.

  6. Pen-y-gors

    Easiest new system in history

    Of course the IT won't be able to do everything - but their highly trained force of Border Force telepathic unicorns will be able to speed things up considerably.

    And they have lots of time, as it appears that all the UK lorry-drivers' licenses for EU work will become invalid on day 1 in the brave new free world.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Easiest new system in history

      And their Volvo/Scania/Mercedes/etc trucks with their <spit> eu </spit> "CE" safety marks - will they be valid in the new free Britannia ?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Easiest new system in history

        And their Volvo/Scania/Mercedes/etc trucks with their <spit> eu </spit> "CE" safety marks - will they be valid in the new free Britannia ?

        Will likely depend on whether they comply with UK rules. Some don't. EU rules on side protection are much looser than UK ones, for example, but those lorries have to be allowed access to UK roads because they meet EU standards. They may not be in the future. A French TV news item on a fatal crash went to the trouble of finding a UK lorry in a motorway service station to show what proper side protection should look like.

        Of course, perhaps the EU will upgrade it's safety rules in that area to meet UK standards. They did for "blind spot" mirrors in 2015, for example. Then again, taking a safety lead from the traitorously-leaving UK might be hard to swallow.

        1. Yes Me Silver badge

          Re: Easiest new system in history

          Thanks for making it clear that we should stay in the EU, in order to improve safety standards for everybody.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Easiest new system in history

            Thanks for making it clear that we should stay in the EU, in order to improve safety standards for everybody.

            Don't need the EU for that. The EEC would have been just fine, but as always the politicians had to get carried away with their European Empire building. They need to feel important, the rest of us get screwed.

            1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

              Re: Easiest new system in history

              Will likely depend on whether they comply with UK rules.

              But at the moment the UK rues are the CE ones - once we take back control we will have proper British Rules.

              How long is it going to take to draft those, make new regulations, setup the notified bodies and testing labs, setup the regulations to regulate the testing labs....

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Easiest new system in history

                But at the moment the UK rues are the CE ones

                No, they aren't. Lorries made in the UK follow the stricter UK safety rules. Those from the EU, which follow the less stringent CE rules, are still allowed to drive on UK roads because of EU rules.

        2. NeilPost Silver badge

          Re: Easiest new system in history

          Some side protection for fuel tanks would be welcomed, to stop the current spate of diesel spillages, and roads closed for 12 hours for emergency repairs.

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