back to article Berners-Lee, Woz, Cerf: Cancel flawed net neutrality vote

Internet and technology luminaries, including Web creator Tim Berners-Lee, Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak and "Father of the internet" Vint Cerf, have called on the FCC to cancel its planned net neutrality vote this week, arguing that it is based on a "flawed and factually inaccurate understanding of Internet technology." "We …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Whaaat?

    I'm sorry, I don't get it. If Republicans can fill their boots at the head of the queue and abuse everybody else on the planet, what's not to like?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Whaaat?

      Sure you get it, don't pretend.

      What we see here is the same concerted demonization drive we've seen a hundred times for one PC cause after another, front-loaded with personal attacks and Good vs Evil language. And you eagerly respond to the not-so-subtle directive like you've been corn-ditioned to do so. Well done.

      I particularly like that "...abuse everybody else on the planet..." thing. If you're going to accuse people, go big! They are EVIL, and deserve whatever charges you throw at them!

      1. Alister

        Re: Whaaat?

        @Big John

        Are you really so deluded as to think that all these people are part of some evil conspiracy to push a political agenda.

        Can you not appreciate that these people, many of whom are the pioneering founders of what the internet is today, may be genuinely concerned by what they see as an ill-concieved and flawed plan of action?

        Have you actually read the open letter? I have, and I'm not seeing the "personal attacks and Good vs Evil language" which you mention.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Whaaat?

          I wasn't referring to the letter or those particular people, but you bring up a good point.

          Is their moral authority such that it carries the whole NN argument? What happens to those with opposite opinions? Are they to be ignored because they aren't in the select group of "internet pioneers" that signed the letter?

          The fact is this NN controversy is not settled science (yet) and yet the proponents are starting to act like it is. As for getting personal, haven't you been reading the slew of pro-NN articles appearing on this site, machinegun-fashion, for the last two weeks? Personal attacks have become the norm.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Whaaat?

            NN is settled.

            If ISP charges company then company passes that charge onto customer.

            If ISP favours one company over another is that not wrong and against fair competition.

            Why add an extra point for ISP's to charge someone? Who do these governments work for? People of business?

            Does pro-NN allow for more competition or unfair competition regardless of who it is?

            No personal attacks but just the basic facts.

          2. Yes Me Silver badge
            Flame

            Re: Whaaat?

            It isn't a question of moral authority. It's a question of knowing what they're talking about. There are hundreds of less well known people (including Yes Me) who also know the facts of the matter and therefore agree with the letter.

            The US very painfully broke up Big Oil and later Big Telephone. The capitalist lackeys (and I mean that very precisely) now in charge of the FCC seem intent on actively helping Big Cable to build and abuse a monopoly position in which they can legally discriminate against competitors. It's perhaps not surprising, but it's very wrong.

          3. Comments are attributed to your handle
            Mushroom

            Re: Whaaat?

            Just go away Big John - you're the only one here "frontloading" by dragging in good vs. evil and "PC" in an attempt to derail the conversation. All you do is attack how the viewpoints are presented, not the viewpoints themselves. You still haven't managed to give a substantive argument against NN since the last time I called out your bullshit: https://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2017/11/21/fcc_net_neutrality/#c_3354515.

            1. MK_E

              Re: Whaaat?

              To be fair BJ is one of those special class of people who would try to breathe flourine if Obama ever said he liked oxygen.

              1. sabroni Silver badge

                Re: And you eagerly respond to the not-so-subtle directive like you've been corn-ditioned to do so.

                My irony meter's just blown...

          4. Triggerfish

            Re: Whaaat?

            What happens to those with opposite opinions? Are they to be ignored because they aren't in the select group of "internet pioneers" that signed the letter?

            What you mean people like Ajit Pai, Verizon, Comcast? You're right they don't have enough of a voice, they are not getting a chance to promote their ideas anywhere.

          5. Dan 55 Silver badge

            Re: Whaaat?

            NN is a settled science, it's called peering arrangements. Additional charging is just double dipping by telecos and squeezing out the competition and it's nothing more complicated than that.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Whaaat?

        Let me guess. You voted for Trump, right?

        You like the NRA lobbying too?

        Perhaps even like Breitbart and Bannon, the walking scab?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Whaaat?

          Thing to keep in consideration

          You can like Trump AND NN...

          The FCC Chairman came under Obama...

          It's never always Black and White until we make it so

          Trump derangement syndrome is a sign

  2. Ugotta B. Kiddingme

    minor correction

    "Increasingly, observers are convinced that Pai and his fellow commissioners simply don't understand care how the internet actually works, and have formed a view of the internet built almost entirely on the cable industry's perspective what the cable industry has paid them to think.

    FTFY

    1. sprograms

      Re: minor correction

      In a minor note to the entire process, I've met several business folks who just assumed Ajit Pai was some sort of Indian tech wizard. They shocked to find he's just another political lawyer, and carries no brilliant resume even in that swampy domain.

  3. Daedalus

    What Internet?

    As one of your columnists has pointed out, the "Internet" based on ARPANet is nothing but a fond memory, at best a network of dusty untraveled roads superseded by superhighways. When you communicate via your ISP, you are probably connecting from that ISP to a next-level ISP that hands it to a backbone provider from where your communication steps down levels to its destination. Exactly, in fact, like making an international phone call.

    Needless to say, except at the two ends these ISP's are going to be big companies, and indeed quasi-monopolies. You can argue that the law should not allow them to discriminate on content, as phone companies are not allowed to do, though they do price their services selectively. What you can't do is claim that they're controlling or throttling something that doesn't actually exist.

    And behind this, you have to realize that your precious ICQ, HTML or whatever, is sharing all those connections with a lot of content streaming that is overwhelming a network originally conceived for discrete, discontinuous communication. Yes the FCC are a bunch of ignorant artsies. But the EFF is not exactly singing the right song either.

    1. Yes Me Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: What Internet?

      And behind this, you have to realize that your precious ICQ, HTML or whatever, is sharing all those connections with a lot of content streaming that is overwhelming a network originally conceived for discrete, discontinuous communication.
      Well yes, which is why the existing network neutrality provisions don't disallow traffic management mechanisms, such that capacity can be shared appropriately between streaming services and interactive services. What they forbid is discriminatory or predatory traffic management that prevents fair competition. And as others have hinted, it seems that the alt-rights now in charge don't see unfair competition as a bad thing.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: What Internet?

      The standards and protocols define it. Just as in the 1970s. I couldn't care less what hardware it runs on.

      Trying to modify the standards and protocols to allow discrimination sounds like a very stupid and ill considered thing to do.

      1. Charles 9

        Re: What Internet?

        And yet standards and protocols DO change over time, like HTTP winning out over Gopher and FTP fading into relative obscurity, and why Telnet in the clear isn't used anymore.

        All that needs to happen is for this natural evolution to get co-opted in some usually subtle way. Another way is to simply shove the whole business aside through bullying and captive market tactics.

  4. goldcd

    I am quite bemused by this

    As a liberal-tree-fucker, from all the media I consume, I know net neutrality is 'good'.

    But maybe I'm missing out.

    I googled why it's bad, I f'in went to Breitbart and the rest - articles are ridiculous, and even 95%+ of their commenters are calling it out.

    I'm just bemused..

    I'm going to take a new position. "The US ending net neutrality is bad for Americans - but I'm not one, so I'm going to stop caring what happens".

    If the US keeps it "good". If the US ends it "good" - as the undoubted clusterfuck will at least serve as a warning to the rest of the planet.

    It's win-win.

    1. MacroRodent

      Re: I am quite bemused by this

      > If the US keeps it "good". If the US ends it "good" - as the undoubted clusterfuck will at least serve as a warning to the rest of the planet.

      The trouble is, USian policies tend to leak to the rest of the planet, no matter if they are good or bad.

  5. captain_solo

    in the current debate over the FCC's absurd expansion of Title II to pretend like they implemented Net Neutrality and now TRUMP! is trying to take it away because big business/capitalism/the illuminati have neked pictures of him or whatever, both sides are acting in bad faith.

    Hopefully these guys are intelligent enough (I mean, they are like the gods of the interwebs) to know that sending it to the legislative branch is the right move since that is where this needs to be addressed. If for no other reason that that any meaningful neutrality will have to apply to providers who live above layer 3 and can influence and shape traffic on their platforms even though they are not telecom providers subject to Title II 1930s phone network regulations.

    Lets get real neutrality instead of the fake partially installed knock off neutrality we got by executive action. If that was being promoted by the people yelling the loudest right now I might respect their position and believe its about saving the internet, but since they don't want such regulation to apply to them, I can only assume this fright fest is related to their ongoing attempts to maintain their own unbalanced competitive advantage at the platform/application layer.

    The only thing these companies really fear is market pressure and competition. The government should be seeking to increase that across the whole stack instead of siding with one or the other side in this misguided debate by selectively caring about anti-competitive behavior.

    1. Charles 9

      "Lets get real neutrality instead of the fake partially installed knock off neutrality we got by executive action."

      Except you have to realize that the Congress in session now is stacked AGAINST neutrality on the grounds they prefer walled gardens. Trying to ask Congress to intervene in a case that currently runs in their interests is like the farmer asking the viper not to bite.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Terminator

      fake?

      > [...] fake partially installed knock off neutrality we got by executive action.

      Wow. Are you really that ignorant? The answer is, sadly, yes.

      Current Title II regulations were established by the FCC after following due process. There were public hearings, there was a comment period, rules were voted on. Subsequently, the new Title II regulations were challenged in court. The court sided with the FCC.

      What exactly does fake partially installed knock off neutrality mean? Care to enlighten us? Does it have anything to do with the Muslim Kenyan Socialist Fascist Communist Not-Born-In-The-US O-Bama?

      1. captain_solo

        Re: fake?

        "Current Title II regulations were established by the FCC after following due process. There were public hearings, there was a comment period, rules were voted on."

        As are the new ones.

        Legislation is the only way this gets done properly. Can congress do that anymore? Probably not, but solving the wrong problem won't help.

        1. Charles 9

          Re: fake?

          So you prefer nothing at all to half-measures? In other words, all or nothing in a world where the nothing is more more likely?

    3. veti Silver badge

      The "real neutrality" you call for is something that can't exist. It would require competition between providers of a sort that is impossible in most of America - there are laws, and legal guarantees, against it. Practically every town and city in the country would face lawsuits and counter-suits - from incumbent cable providers, from would-be competitors, from Google and Netflix... To unpick all of that would take tens of thousands of lawyers, and years of billable time.

      Or Congress could pass a new law. That's the theoretically correct solution. But Congress doesn't know or care - and it can't get its shit together even on things it supposedly does care about, like healthcare. Realistically, this isn't something that the present Congress is going to address. Nor is the next one. (The one after - well, maybe. That's about how long it generally takes to build half-way respectable legislation.)

      The beauty of Title 2 was that it cut through all that bullshit. It worked, well sorta, where no plausible alternative would. And Pai recognizes that, because he's reversing it without so much as proposing an alternative, probably because he knows any alternative he could propose would be laughed out of court.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I was going to comment...

    On how "freedom is slavery" as cynicism... but after reading the above posts, with possibly just one person noticing what is and is not reality... I think I just give up.

    Go on, burn your house down while sitting in it. I don't care anymore. I'm going to fight fires for people who need or want help. If you choose to be ignorant, then only a slap to the head may correct that, and I'm not going to be the one to deliver it. So nope, no correction from me here. I'll not say what I think of the article, but wow, I do think the responses are amazing.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I won't argue with you

      But let's be clear, i'm much cleverer than you. Much cleverer. That is all.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I won't argue with you

        I'm not saying it is down to being clever. I've seen people on both sides, and I'd assume most are more clever than me. But the *emotional* ties have left people looking to shoot their leg off, cook it and serve it to their jailers, attackers and the scam artists. :(

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Nice document, but it will just confirm Pai "need to act, in the interest of telcos!"

    When they wrote that in 2002 telcos offered services that could made them more attractive to customers, while now they have none because they moved to other companies at the "edge", they just confirm what telco paid Pai to bring the clock back - they want to be able again to offer the same services while blocking competing ones, and make more money (especially now you can make money from data and ads also). And they can make money also controlling access - think how much money you can make by menacing to block DoubleClick.... despite how much I can hate Google ad business, it's not up to the IPS to interfere with it trying to monetize it (I'll block it myself for free, thank you).

    Telco don't wont to become just "pipes" - they want a share of the cake. Till now they show they are not capable to compete with the Internet companies - even when they were small, they underestimated them greatly. All they could is to buy some corpse (Yahoo...) or try to merge with older media companies (Time Warner) - but they are still utterly incapable to think forward.

    So they need to bring the clock back, and Pai(d) is their man. He's an opportunist who saw his great chance. This document is telling him his on the right path to fulfill is Masters desires, and be handsomely rewarded for it. He won't care about anything else. Innovation, etc. etc.? Who cares. He will be richer and richer. And rich people don't need the Internet so much...

    1. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

      Re: Nice document, but it will just confirm Pai "need to act, in the interest of telcos!"

      Absolutely. Without control, you can't exploit the consumer and overcharge him. Hence no big fat profits. You'd have to actually do some valye adding work to make a profit, which is way too much work for large lazy corps. Better just control things and levy a 'tax' on it all. No different to how everything else works, but not good for progress, and not good for the consumer.

  8. W Donelson

    Republicans only listen if you have donations.

    This Is the Long Game of the Republican Coup d'Etat

    A tax "reform" scam to borrow a Trillion dollars from the young, give it to the rich in return for never-ending campaign donations for the GOP.

    Then they dismantle social security, pensions, healthcare, wages, cripple government revenues and end democracy in America.

    btw- They WILL BE FIRING Mueller soon. Sorry.

    The Atlantic - The Long Game

    https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/12/the-long-game-of-republican-economics/547721/

    The New Yorker - The Gutting of the Welfare State

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/the-next-step-in-the-radical-trump-gop-agenda-gut-the-welfare-state

  9. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    FAIL

    ""flawed and factually inaccurate understanding of Internet technology.""

    But very profitable for them.

    Remember folks, to slightly misquote the Bible*

    "Love of evil is the root of all money."

    *OK to blatently re-write the quote, but the goal is much the same.

    1. Slackness

      Re: ""flawed and factually inaccurate understanding of Internet technology.""

      I was blown away by this comment.... I can't stop sniggering at it!! Love it!!

      Have a free Interwebs on me.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: ""flawed and factually inaccurate understanding of Internet technology.""

      I've been in shops that make a lot of profit by being factually incorrect. Such as better performing cables, which vary only in the colour of paint used on them and the price tag stuck to the box.

  10. eldakka
    Mushroom

    I don't think Berners-Lee has any leg to stand on about net-neutrality being the one who pushed for DRM in HTML5. That is going to have a bigger impact internationally than whatever the FCC decides about the local US market.

    1. Charles 9

      That was more a case of picking your battles. Big content has enough control that they could make people abandon open Internet protocols, meaning they could make people abandon the World Wide Web by simply denying much-demanded content to the Web. Sir Berners-Lee can't force people to do anything, and as you have noticed with the likes of Facebook, Stupid has the power to outvote.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Facepalm

      "any leg to stand on about net-neutrality being the one who pushed for DRM in HTML5"

      Sorry, net neutrality doesn't mean you can watch Netflix for free...

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The reclassification of ISPs as Title II may have helped urban areas, but it definitely HURT rollout in rural areas where it was needed the most. That is something that needs to be addressed. I personally know of several ISPs that put a hold on expansion plans, and one that even shut down its wireless network, all because of the Title II classification.

    I don't think that repealing the existing legislation is the way to go, but I have issues with those who are fighting against it just as I do with those fighting for it.

    There is so much MIS-information, from both sides, and terms are so poorly defined, that it is hard to have an intelligent conversation about it. Both sides have valid points, but we might as well be discussing whether vi or emacs is a better editor.

    Net neutrality as currently defined didn't exist before 2015 - yet the Internet grew and flourished without it just the same. Repealing two year old rules isn't going to kill the Internet - but they should have something else in place first.

    In the end, however, consumer protection is the job of the Federal TRADE Commission, not the Federal COMMUNICATION Commission. The two of them need to get together and hash out the areas of responsibility instead of passing the buck. The FCC can then go back to handling the science/technology issues, and the FTC can stop ignoring their responsibilities and step up to the plate with consumer protections.

    Now for the part that will get me downvoted:

    This whole "art is better with net neutrality" is egotistical bull manure from artists who think that everything that came before them is crap and their own work is golden. There might be other reasons for NN, but that isn't one of them.

    The whole "ISP could block content" issue is covered by the Sherman act. Anybody who says that repealing Title II would allow that is smoking dope and/or believes their own propaganda - That unfortunately includes Berners-Lee and crew. The FCC may not understand the Internet, but they don't understand American law either.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Terminator

      everything collapsed because Title II

      > I personally know of several ISPs that put a hold on expansion plans, and one that even shut down its wireless network, all because of the Title II classification.

      Yeah. Name those ISP's who put their expanion plans on hold because Title II. And the one that shut down its wireless network because Title II. There's only AT&T, T-Mobile, Sprint and Verizon, so it's gotta be one of them. Sprint doesn't even bother going after the rural areas markets, so that leaves AT&T or Verizon, less likely T-Mobile.

      There aren't that many ISP's left in the US to begin with, so naming this ISP shouldn't be that difficult.

      A little bird told me you won't be naming anything anytime soon, though.

      I personally know a guy who knows a guy who heard from someone that the Internet is secretly controlled by the United Nations.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: everything collapsed because Title II

        No, I will not be giving out names. That would be a breach of confidence. If they want to come out publicly they can, as it is their story to tell.

        Anybody who thinks that there are only four wireless networks in the US is ignorant. There are THOUSANDS of ISPs in the United States with wireless networks, especially covering rural areas. Ever heard of WISPA ( http://www.wispa.org/ )? Membership in that organization is only a small percentage of those ISPs.

        Title II doesn't hurt the big corporations, it hurts the small ones. The companies you mentioned were ALREADY Title II companies. The guy who covers a couple of rural counties with a dozen towers and access points off of grain silos isn't.

        1. Charles 9

          Re: everything collapsed because Title II

          Title II in terms of telephone, but NOT in terms of Internet, unless you can prove otherwise.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Has anyone thought about the copyright angle to all this? With net neutrality gone ISP's are free to block whatever streaming or torrent service they want without repercussion. Big game on the TV? Where's all our traffic coming from? Block it. Does this stop at services or websites as well?

    Down the rabbit hole we go. I'm sure the UK are looking at this with envious eyes.

    1. Charles 9

      Doesn't that run afoul of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act, though, meaning it can create a law-versus-law situation?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      They already do...

      AFAIK they already are allowed to block/stop "illegal" activity. Just so happens they put copyright infringement in that category.

      Without NN they can block or slow down any content. That is a massive difference.

    3. rmason

      @AC

      Certain UK ISPs already do (attempt to) block football streams, especially on saturdays.

      Loads of IPTV providers/yoofs (i.e stolen Sky etc) come bundled with a VPN app now, other providers/yoofs have got around the block with no VPN required.

      There was a week (ish) period where all the hooky services struggled to get the football, it was swiftly overcome and all continued on as normal.

      1. Charles 9

        But if this keeps up, there may soon be a move to restrain ALL encrypted communications except under (expensive, meaning limited to businesses) sanctioned circumstances.

  13. Dave Bell

    The USA is different

    One thing I have heard from American sources is that much of the country has little choice of internet providers. I can, here in the UK, fairly easily switch from one ISP to another. We have the BT Openreach monopoly on the physical connection, and a free choice over who provides the service. Most of the country doesn't have any practical alternative to that, no cable TV network, though mobile phone tech give a back-up in most places. There are still gaps.

    Most of the USA is served by vertically integrated phone/ISP operations, with no competition unless you can get Cable TV, or can pay mobile phone charges (again, with coverage problems).

    Setting up an ISP business in the UK isn't trivial, but it is still possible. In my time on broadband I've dealt with four companies, partly down to take-overs and re-branding, partly my choice.

    We have the net neutrality that the USA is trying to cling to. We have choice and competition for our custom by the suppliers. It's not that close to right, but it works.

    How would feel if you only had one practical choice of internet supplier, and no guarantee that you could use the bandwidth you pay for for what you want to do (assuming it's lawful)? It's a question of balance, and the USA is getting extreme.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The USA is different

      The reason is that when most telco monopolies in Europe were dismantled, the network was or transferred to a a "neutral" entity, or in some other way the incumbent still owning is legally bound to lease it to competitors - instead of breaking them along "regional" lines, as it happened with the "Baby Bells". After all, those networks were often subsidized with taxpayers money. The system may not be perfect, and ex-monopolists often tried to rig the game, but it worked.

      That allowed more companies to enter the market and reach customers, maybe investing only in creating their one backbones, but still being able to reach most customers on the existing network. And in many ways it makes little sense to duplicate an expensive infrastructure that requires a lot of work to be deployed (in most Europe pole cables are far less used), and may just mean high-revenue areas get several options, low-revenue one maybe only one, and rural areas none.

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