Oregon will let engineer refer to himself as an 'engineer' Mats Järlström, a Swedish electronics engineer living in Oregon, who was fined last year for referring to himself as an engineer and doing math without a license has tentatively won the right to use the term in communications with the state. In 2015, Järlström sent email messages to the Oregon State Board of Examiners for …
Not exactly.
The problem is that there a couple of professions that call themselves engineers and there's some history in licensing professions. E.g. an HVAC guy or building engineer isn't the same as a civil engineer or electrical engineer. ...
But if you're providing the HVAC or building engineering services you have to be licensed.
(just as doctors and lawyers are also licensed by the state too. )
What makes matters worse is that everyone loves to call themselves software engineers because that's their job title, even though they aren't software engineers. To be a software engineer you need to have graduated from a 4yr accredited engineering program.
So while its a fail what the Oregon agencies did, its a bit more complicated and unless you've had to deal with state and local governments you wouldn't understand.
An engineer isn't an engineer unless he's an engineer. Now which train do you want to ride?
To be a software engineer you need to have graduated from a 4yr accredited engineering program.
I expect that's an oversimplification?
Once upon a time I was on the staff of a Comp Sci department of a UK (Russell Group) University. So I was surrounded by people who were providing such courses to students. Yet hardly any of us had Comp Sci degrees ourselves (my own degree was Maths), so presumably we would not have qualified under your rules.
Seems to me the underlying story is, his initial approach was one of being an arse (albeit a smart one), and was met by a p***-off reaction. A reaction that was perfectly reasonable in principle (the flaws he found being irrelevant to the subject of his wife's ticket), but horribly botched in its execution.
Come to think of it ...
Yes, a student graduating through our department could qualify automatically for BCS membership and with it Chartered Engineer status after a qualifying period (possibly four years) in relevant employment. Yet we who educated those students had no such automatic path. Ho, hum.
Yet we who educated those students had no such automatic path. Ho, hum
I had a lecturer who was well versed in his field having worked in industry for a long time and had some qualifications to boot. He was contacted by a lecturer at a US university who addressed all communications to him as Professor Hannay*. He told us he laughed the first time a letter arrived as he certainly didn't have a Masters or a PHD. Don't think he ever corrected the American on this as he was enjoying it too much.
*Hannay (obviously**) not his real name
** Stolen from the 39 Steps by John Buchan
While at Yale the faculty used to make a point of calling each other "Mister", because everyone was a PhD. The whole "doctor" thing is way overblown, mostly by overblown people. There are those of us in tech with multiple graduate degrees, including doctorates, but no one I know of refers to themselves as "doctor". Having said that, there's nothing wrong with being proud of your academic achievements, particularly at the graduate level. It's using them to somehow diminish the often equally valuable experience and skill of others that's objectionable.
The whole "doctor" thing is way overblown, mostly by overblown people. [...] but no one I know of refers to themselves as "doctor"
Methinks you miss the point. People don't call themselves Doctor (unless perhaps in a CV situation), but it's really useful for addressing a stranger in formal or semi-formal correspondence. Works equally for both sexes where there's any uncertainty, and is unlikely to offend even if it's not technically correct.
" It is always safer to call a Lecturer "Professor" then to accidentally call a Professor "Lecturer" or "Instructor." Most people address faculty as "Doctor" just to be safe as well. "
In most of the universities I've studied or worked in, people tend to call teaching staff by their names.
@Cipherpunk:
" Professor is a job title, not a degree. There was nothing improper. "
True. However, in the American system, it's synonymous with "lecturer", whereas in the UK it is reserved for the academics at the top of the tree, and once you become a prof, you are always a prof, just you become a "professor emeritus/emerita" once you're no longer in post. You'll be expected to go back to your old university every now and then to lecture, and to supervise the occasional masters or PhD student, so you never fully retire.
@arctic_haze
Yes - as the layperson you are: just as a plumber, shopkeeper or janitor can discuss traffic lights in Oregon.
However, you can not claim to be authoritative about the engineering of the traffic lights - a PhD in Physics does not qualify you to assume that you have competence in all matters technical and non-technical.
@BillG, so according to that logic I'm an amateur Engineer? I'm not state certified (that doesn't exist this side of the pond anymore afaik) but I am a professional and I'm an engineer (Bachelors in Mechanical Engineering). Just because some numpties thought it'd be cool to call themselves engineers when they are not shouldn't stop me from calling myself an engineer when I go to Oregon.
".....I'm an amateur Engineer? I'm not state certified (that doesn't exist this side of the pond anymore afaik) but I am a professional and I'm an engineer (Bachelors in Mechanical Engineering)...." In the UK the IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers - not even a classical engineering field) started this by telling their members to abuse anyone that dared to call themselves an "Engineer" that did not have a BEng (Bachelor of Engineering) degree. I had one manager that used to sit in on interviews who took this too the extreme and would attack applicants that had "Software Engineer" on their CV but didn't have a BEng. It was all about protecting the "investment" they had made in their institute and had zero practical relevance. In the US it is again about protecting the licensing authorities - "You can't call yourself an Engineer unless you pay us."
"In the UK the IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers - not even a classical engineering field) started this by telling their members to abuse anyone that dared to call themselves an "Engineer" that did not have a BEng (Bachelor of Engineering) degree."
The IEEE is a world wide institution. You may be thinking if the Institute of Electrical Engineers (IEE), now called the Institute of Engineering and Technology (IET). I'm a member, the topic of giving Engineer a designated status comes up in their membership magazine every few years. Normally it's prompted by discussions on how to encourage youngsters to aspire to be engineers or how to address the skills gap. And generally comparisons with Architect in the UK or Engineer in Germany are made.
After much hand wringing it fizzles out with the general feeling of "you'll never make it stick". The chartered engineer status is the closest we have in the UK. You need an engineering degree (I.e. a BEng, not BA or BSc*) plus relevant experience (although alternative equivalents are available) and then you go through a (apparently**) rigorous process to be awarded CEng.
(*) BEng degrees can only be awarded for courses that have been accredited by a professional institution e.g. IET, BSC
(**) So I've been told. not done it myself.
"You can have a BSc and be a Chartered Engineer, I certainly am as the BSc(Hons) in Software Engineering I did was BCS accredited and the BCS still do Chartered Engineer status - http://www.bcs.org/category/16268"
The BCS will give you Chartered Engineer status if you've worked on a helpdesk for 5 years, let alone if you have a degree. I've got chartered engineer status from them and my degree was a BA in Anthropology.
The IEEE is a world-wide organisation. I am a senior member (which essentially means you have worked in the field long enough for them to send you a brass plaque, not that you have done anything really special), but have never lived or worked in the USA. I don't tend to call myself engineer, so could safely go to Oregon, I suppose.
The actual rule/law being challenged is that you can not refer to yourself as engineer at all, unless you are also a certified Professional Engineer. And, also, the rule does not only apply when soliciting work as an engineer. Just typical self-serving bureaucratic over-reach.
No.
You can get a BS thru a non accredited engineering program.
Your degree (BS or BE ) has to be thru an accredited 4yr engineering program.
(BS in College of Arts & Science != BS in College of Engineering)
PE (Professional Engineering) is someone who has gone thru the process outlined here:
https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe
PE is not governed by the state.
Then you have the use of engineering that is governed by the state. (e.g HVAC, building services, etc ...)
That's the end of story.
"In Canadaland foe some advertised jobs you apparently need a degree in computer science to unpack & put a PC on a desk & offer deskside support."
Yes, my 1987 Computing Science degree has got me nothing more than being labelled an IT Engineer unpacking boxes. And the longer it goes on with people only being prepared to pay me to be a pizza delivery boy, the more people refuse to consider me for anything other than being a pizza delivery boy.
Canada is one of only a few countries where being able to call yourself an engineer requires formal acknowledgement and qualifications. It may be a little ridiculous from the perspective of the UK where there is no recognition of the value of engineering and would not know a Chartered Engineer from Adam.
"To be a software engineer" ..... there are no formal requirements in treh UK, certainly not an accredited 4 year engineering degree. My engineering degree was 3 years and I held many roles with software engineer in the title.
Interestingly whist Oregon regulates more that 20 branches of engineering, according to their list they don't regulate software engineers so I don't believe they could get snotty with you if you call yourself a software engineer.
"To be a software engineer you need to have graduated from a 4yr accredited engineering program."
No, you'll still just be "a college grad from an engineering program".
Software Engineer itself is just a proud title, like any other titles like "Artist", "Manager", "Programmer", "creator", "writer", etc. They are given by person / people/ company to look better commercial, because there are no governments in this world who can create license/certificate for software engineering before they are outdated. Their xp machines are kind of self explanatory.
Back to topic, the whole Oregon State thing was just overreaching especially when stating "Engineer" is just a plain title. He didn't state the specific "Swedish electronics engineer", "Qualified Engineer", "Professional Engineer", "Licensed Engineer" or "Practicing Engineer" and got the practicing unlicensed engineering fine. Screw them for being an a***hole.
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