back to article UK.gov admits Investigatory Powers Act illegal under EU law

Police forces will no longer be able to grant themselves access to surveillance data if new government proposals to the Snooper's Charter are accepted. The move is one of a number of proposed changes (PDF) to the data retention rules in the controversial Investigatory Powers Act, which the government has been forced to admit …

Page:

  1. This post has been deleted by its author

    1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      Re: Why The Opposition To Court Approval

      Why The Opposition To Court Approval

      Court will not rubberstamp. They are "the enemies of the people", remember?

      An "independent" mandarin run body will.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Why The Opposition To Court Approval

        I thought the problem the last time was that they were funneling so many requests though one court that it was more-or-less rubberstamping them before it drowned in parperwork...

        1. hplasm
          Thumb Up

          Re: Why The Opposition To Court Approval

          ...parperwork...

          Sums up the legal system nicely!

      2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        Gimp

        SOP for the Home Office. Choice of Courts or new rubber stamping body. No choice at all.

        Obvious really.

        There is a serious issue centered on (but not confined to) the British Home Office.

        Data fetishism. It's not a sane policy. It's a personality disorder

      3. Yes Me Silver badge

        Re: Why The Opposition To Court Approval

        There's plenty of evidence that a secret court (like the US FISA court) will rubber stamp pretty much anything. So be careful what you wish for.

    2. David Shaw

      I’m actually in favor of Police having wide access to intelligence data

      They are, after all, the service that sorts stuff out.

      Meanwhile, I’m impressed that the UK is being transparent about their “data-retention illegality,” many EU MS have continued to DR as much as possible, possibly only Slovenia stopped?

      More transparency at http://statewatch.org/news/2017/nov/eu-ctc-data-ret.htm

  2. wolfetone Silver badge
    Joke

    So basically we just wait for another year and a bit and the UK cops can do it legally?

    I don't know what everyone's so upset about with Brexit. This is good news!

    1. Thought About IT

      No longer laughing

      I see you were only joking, but it's becoming ever harder to laugh at the clusterfuck called Brexit. There's credible evidence that "Gove and Johnson are pushing for hard deregulation under the cover of hard Brexit. With the European Research Group and the highly influential Legatum Institute on their side, the duo have demanded that the prime minister drop taxes and make a bonfire of the regulations that protect us."

      1. wolfetone Silver badge

        Re: No longer laughing

        I know, I could cry. I had my mother cry to me worrying that she's going to be deported (she's from Ireland) after the vote.

        But I'm optimistic that it won't happen. Optimistic to the end. And if you're crying you should be laughing and getting drunk. It eases the pain.

        1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

          Re: No longer laughing

          Optimistic to the end.

          So am I.

          That is not stopping me from rebuilding an old 19th century farmhouse in a Eu country to serve as a backup base of operations. I would prefer not to have to pack up our belongings in a couple of containers and move there in 2019, but I will do so if I have to.

          Your mom should look at it as an opportunity. While it is impossible to even get an appointment with a real estate in county Wicklow at the moment, there are possibilities elsewhere. Not bad ones too.

          The market around the rapid transit into Dublin on the south side has been bonkers for more then half a year - since the beginning of the year. Regardless of what they are saying publicly, most of the large city shops have had active evacuation plans for more than half a year now.

          All in all - If it is OK for the "very patriotic" vultures to plan their "leave", I do not see why it should be unpatriotic for me, you and your mom.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: No longer laughing

            I haven't got the cash to invest in overseas property but I have been spending the last year learning German (from scratch) and finding alternative income streams from overseas. I still have nearly a year before Jr finishes education and then I can reassess the situation.

            Whats the old Chinese proverb - "Prepare for rain, hope for sun"

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: No longer laughing

              "In a long life, a wise man will leave his baggage many times."

              1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

                Re: No longer laughing

                "In a long life, a wise man will leave his baggage many times."

                And after a long flight his baggage will leave him many times.

            2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

              Re: No longer laughing

              I haven't got the cash to invest in overseas property but I have been spending the last year learning German (from scratch) and finding alternative income streams from overseas.

              At the moment you can have your pick of employers: German IT companies are screaming for developers.

        2. ExampleOne

          Re: No longer laughing

          > (she's from Ireland)

          Her right to reside in the UK has nothing to do with her status as an EU national, Irish nationals are special in UK law, predating EU membership.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: No longer laughing

            "Her right to reside in the UK has nothing to do with her status as an EU national, Irish nationals are special in UK law, predating EU membership."

            Hey, don't destroy his victimhood argument with reality! What kind of monster are you? Think of the snowflakes!

          2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

            Re: No longer laughing

            Her right to reside in the UK has nothing to do with her status as an EU national,

            That may well be true. That she's worried just underlines what dreadful job the government is making of a stupid idea.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: No longer laughing

              "what dreadful job the government is making of a stupid idea."

              The stupidity lies with John Major's government signing Maastricht back in 92. But like all PMs he wanted his "legacy" and he's certainly got it. Though I suspect it'll turn out not to be quite what he had in mind.

              1. Charlie Clark Silver badge
                Facepalm

                Re: No longer laughing

                The stupidity lies with John Major's government signing Maastricht back in 92.

                What are you on about? Act of Parliament, like all the rest. That's how the UK's democracy is supposed to work. Except now parliament allows itself to be ruled by the mob and the government has decided important matters should be decided by fiat. I guess that is one way of taking back control! We'll all be back being tenant farmers.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: No longer laughing

                  "What are you on about? Act of Parliament, like all the rest."

                  Eh? You think acts of parliament happen without the government having any say in them? What are you smoking? The Major government made a decision to sign that treaty, no one forced them too and more to the point, no one asked the british public if they wanted them to.

          3. RegGuy1 Silver badge

            Re: No longer laughing

            Yes, Irish nationals could vote in the referendum, but not other EU nationals.

            WTF?

            1. Wensleydale Cheese

              Re: No longer laughing

              "Yes, Irish nationals could vote in the referendum, but not other EU nationals.

              WTF?"

              Plus Commonwealth citizens resident in the UK at the time of the vote.

              Who could vote in the EU referendum?

              Commonwealth migrants from 54 states - including ­Australia, Canada, India, Pakistan and Nigeria - could join the electoral roll as long are they are residents in the UK.

              Unlike in general elections, Commonwealth citizens in Gibraltar were allowed to vote and have gone to the polls in the EU referendum.

              ...

              Citizens from other European countries - apart from Ireland, Malta and Cyprus - did not get to vote on whether the UK remains part of the EU.

              Malta and Cyprus are both Commonwealth countries.

        3. Dan 55 Silver badge

          Re: No longer laughing

          If the CTA doesn't survive or the Irish are not treated as British citizens as per the 1948 Act then the UK really will have gone off the rails.

          1. Yes Me Silver badge

            Re: No longer laughing

            "then the UK really will have gone off the rails"

            It has, as far as I can see. If the Commons had the slightest inclination to act on facts and evidence rather than on beliefs and fantasies, the No Confidence motion would have been passed months ago. There's renewed hope that the Irish impasse will blow away the DUP 'confidence and supply' agreement in the next few weeks. Even a minority government led by Corbyn would be better than what we have now, but a cross-bench coalition would be much better.

            In any case, they will have to keep RIP aligned with EU law - this is the sort of condition that will be attached to any conceivable future trade agreement if (despite everything) Brexit comes to pass.

        4. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: No longer laughing

          "I had my mother cry to me worrying that she's going to be deported (she's from Ireland) after the vote."

          My sympathy to your mother and I'm sure you've reassured her. However she and you are the lucky ones. My wife and children were all born in Belfast so dual nationality is available to them and the grandchildren. So it's just me who doesn't have that line of retreat.

          1. Dan 55 Silver badge

            Re: No longer laughing

            If they get dual nationality, you'd be married to an Irishwoman with Irish children. Even if the CTA does go down the pan, the chances of you being refused residency in Ireland are precisely 0.0 recurring and the chances of you being refused citizenship after three years are the same.

            Most European countries don't actively try to split up families unlike the Home Office in the UK.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: No longer laughing

            "My wife and children were all born in Belfast so dual nationality is available to them and the grandchildren. So it's just me who doesn't have that line of retreat."

            Its good to know so many people came to the UK, not because they had any interest or love for our country and were prepared to stick with it through good times and bad, but because it was economically expedient and now that economically things might be paling due to brexit they're all preparing to clear off. To those people I say: Pack your bags, close the door behind you and good riddance! We don't need fareweather friends.

            Mod me to hell, I don't give a s**t.

            1. Dan 55 Silver badge

              Re: No longer laughing

              To those people I say: Pack your bags, close the door behind you and good riddance! We don't need fareweather friends.

              There's so much to choose from, where do we start.

              - We did it to ourselves. But perhaps we do need friends who stick with us while we have some kind of collective national nervous breakdown.

              - Are you complaining about his wife and kids? NI is part of the UK.

              - Are you complaining about him? He could be British and born in rUK.

              - Are you complaining about foreigners? Oh dear.

            2. John H Woods Silver badge

              Re: No longer laughing

              I voted you down for misspelling fairweather.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: No longer laughing

                "I voted you down for misspelling fairweather."

                Fare enough ;)

            3. Yes Me Silver badge

              Re: No longer laughing

              @boltar: Why is it that so many Brexatics can't spell, as well as failing to understand the benefits of migration for innovation and economic growth?

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: No longer laughing

                "as well as failing to understand the benefits of migration for innovation and economic growth?"

                The only benefits of migration are to corporations who can make a rush to the bottom in conditions and salary for blue collar jobs. Perhaps you've just come back from a monastic retreat and haven't noticed the housing shortage in the SE, the strain on the NHS, schools and transport? Anyone who thinks a unlimited migration to a small island like this either has an agenda or is a fucking idiot. Which one are you?

                1. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

                  Re: No longer laughing

                  "Perhaps you've just come back from a monastic retreat and haven't noticed the housing shortage in the SE, the strain on the NHS, schools and transport?"

                  The strain on the NHS is because of old natives. Those working at NHS are to a large degree immigrants. And very good ones too. That's likely to change. Then you can really start moaning about waiting time. Enjoy, you fool.

            4. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

              Re: No longer laughing

              Its good to know so many people came to the UK, not because they had any interest or love for our country and were prepared to stick with it through good times and bad, but because it was economically expedient and now that economically things might be paling due to brexit they're all preparing to clear off.

              You really are as thick as a Brexiter!

              What is it you don't get with people being told they will be asked to leave? That the PM refuses to guarantee EU citicens rights? That the only one doing so is the serial lier BoJo who says anything that he feels is right for that particular moment. The tabloid press spewing out agressive xenophobic hate (led by that immigrant Murdoch).

              Even a native Brit might think this is just a little too much.

    2. MrXavia

      I expect not, because to continue working with European data, we will have to tick their boxes on data protection, I expect this will be part of the negotiated deal..

  3. Dan 55 Silver badge

    But, the government added, creating such a body will require "significant" effort, include setting up IT systems and processes that can handle electronic applications from 600-plus public authorities.

    The number of public bodies mentioned before was 50-odd. They seem to have stopped the police accessing it but judging by the number of public authorities mentioned, it seems councils are now included. Is this some giant pisstake?

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. Lysenko

      Is this some giant pisstake?

      What it is is a smokescreen. They want to make out that the issue is technically so big that they can avoid making any progress until they're clear of ECJ jurisdiction. The only constraint left then with be the European Court of Human Rights, and they've got a standing manifesto commitment to repeal the Human Rights Act and thus get out of that as well. All statutory power will be returned to Westminster and our journey to the dark side will be complete.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        "they've got a standing manifesto commitment to repeal the Human Rights Act and thus get out of that as well."

        The Good Friday Agreement is a fly in that ointment but the way things are going I can't see that lasting much longer.

        1. Lysenko

          The Good Friday Agreement is a fly in that ointment but the way things are going I can't see that lasting much longer.

          I sincerely hope the UK isn't going to last much longer. I voted against Scottish independence last time, but there is no question of me doing so again after this little Englander coup d'état. That has implications for the Irish question as well since Ulster has always been culturally closer to Scotland than England and unionism is primarily driven by irredentism south of the border than anglophilia per se.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Aha, it seems we have a little Scotlander in our midst

            1. Lysenko

              Aha, it seems we have a little Scotlander in our midst

              No, what you have is a European Federalist. I'm not interested in an independent Scotland per se, I'm interested in getting back into the EU. As things stand, that means cutting loose the xenophobic appendage south of the border who want to live under a regime where May/Gove/Johnson etc. are free from all restraint and can enact any oppressive lunacy they like (the subject of this thread being a case in point).

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                @ Lysenko

                "No, what you have is a European Federalist."

                You do know that after brexit you can still be part of that. The EU will still exist and so will an independent UK as well. However I do think it odd that you care so much about the UK (dont know if you are from here, came here or never even visited) which has so many opt outs and our rejection of the Euro removed our eligibility to be part of a federalist EU (until some traitor sold us out further).

                In fact you should be happy for brexit as the UK people have been against ever closer union and being part of the EUSSR/USofE and now that obstacle is leaving freely. It does however mean the other members who dont want to federalise will need some persuasion but it brings you closer to your dream.

                So noting all that why do you hope it is the end of the UK? What has the UK done to so offend you? And instead of demanding freedom of choice be removed and that democracy is second to your oh wise opinion maybe you should consider applying to move to your utopia? Instead of your attacks on this country.

                1. Lysenko

                  Re: @ Lysenko

                  However I do think it odd that you care so much about the UK (dont know if you are from here, came here or never even visited)

                  I was born in Scotland to a Scots Mother and an English Father. so I can't still be part of the EU (not without getting Irish citizenship anyway).

                  That also answers your second question: what England has done to me is revoke my EU citizenship against my will. My opinion isn't the issue: Scotland as a whole voted to remain and England voted to leave. Under this new principle of majoritarianism (as opposed to representative democracy), that means the whole UK has to tag along with whatever England decides from here on in. That's not a future I want to be part of. It's not even the UK - it's just Greater England.

                  As for your final point: with a British passport and a Father from Yorkshire I'll attack "this country" and the toxic, racist xenophobes it harbours whenever I feel it is warranted.

                  1. codejunky Silver badge

                    Re: @ Lysenko

                    @ Lysenko

                    "I was born in Scotland to a Scots Mother and an English Father. so I can't still be part of the EU (not without getting Irish citizenship anyway)."

                    So you can (looking in your brackets).

                    "England has done to me is revoke my EU citizenship against my will"

                    Funny I thought this was a UK vote voted for over the UK and beyond and still the result came in to leave. What you are saying is your (individual) will is more important than the UK, which is basically opposition to democracy. If you dont like democracy thats fine, thats your opinion, but dont expect people to be all for your benevolent dictatorship where you take away our will.

                    "Scotland as a whole voted to remain and England voted to leave"

                    Scotland voted to remain.... IN THE UK. So a UK vote for the UK is a UK vote for the whole of the UK.

                    "that means the whole UK has to tag along with whatever England decides from here on in."

                    You seem to have difficulty with size. UK vote, not England vote. England in UK, UK not in England.

                    "That's not a future I want to be part of."

                    Thats fine, I have no problem with that. Go move to your beloved EU and the good news is it will be more likely to be federalist supporting than the UK is. Here you still wouldnt have your federal dream unless some dictator took over and sold us out.

                    "As for your final point: with a British passport and a Father from Yorkshire I'll attack "this country" and the toxic, racist xenophobes it harbours whenever I feel it is warranted."

                    Ok thats fine but your opinion is fuelled by what seems to be a hatred for us, which again is your opinion and I dont care. But it does kinda expose why you would want to remain in the EU.

                    I do note that you are a more obvious example of what I do encounter in vocal remain advocates. If we dont remain in the EU you want to see us crash and burn and turn into the horrible place you seem to see us as. We didnt change overnight so why do you stay in such a horrible country you like to attack as racist xenophobes? Why stay with us horrible Englanders you really do seem to have something against?

                    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

                      Re: @ Lysenko

                      First you say it's a UK vote when obviously due to numbers it's just England which decides the outcome of the vote (as seen by the immediate constitutional crisis on the 24th which is still running till this day) then secondly you say if he doesn't like the English he should go and live in his beloved EU.

                      Way to prove his point.

                    2. Lysenko

                      Re: @ Lysenko

                      The only claim I have to Irish citizenship (which is none) is one great-grandfather - maybe - no one is really sure if he was Irish or not. My point is it is the closest EU country (to Scotland).

                      Any "one man, one vote" referendum in the UK is a de facto English vote. The appropriate criterion in a federation or union is "one country, one vote" or "one country, one veto". Otherwise, you have majoritarianism which (to borrow from Benjamin Franklin), is two wolves and a sheep debating what to have for lunch. What I am saying is that in a representative democracy you're supposed to have checks and balances to preserve minority rights. With this majoritarian principle now established, only the English vote matters because of relative population size and England can railroad the other three countries in the union any time it so chooses. That's not the union I voted to preserve - it's Greater England.

                      I don't hate the UK. I hate what small minded, insular nationalists have done to it. I come from a family of sailors and merchants. Nearly everyone (male) in my family, going back at least 5 generations, was born here but was out in the world by the age of 18. Colonies and the Empire mostly, though in my case it was Eastern Europe and Pakistan. I hate the fact that Brexiteers have succeeded in piloting this country into a dead end of isolation and irrelevance not seen since ... probably Henry Tudor. It's been half a millennium since we've been holed up on this island with no meaningful presence abroad, no real geopolitical influence and frankly, no respect worth a damn.

                      Brexiteers are the ones who hate this country - it is patently obvious from their herculean efforts to destroy everything it used to stand for. I've seen this sort of thing before. Get rid of foreign influences. Take back control of the laws. Expel people who don't share our culture. Make everyone speak Pashto.

                      1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

                        Re: @ Lysenko

                        "only the English vote matters because of relative population size and England can railroad the other three countries in the union any time it so chooses. "

                        I think you missed the point. "England" is not an homogeneous single mass of people. AT the very least, you may have heard of the North/South divide. That's a very real thing. Not mention all the other divisions.

                        As an example, it's been stated that 68% of Scots voted to remain in the EU but "little" Scotland is being forced out by "bigger" England. Just for comparison, the Scottish independence vote, had it gone the other way, had the potential to drag "little" Orkney out of the UK by "bigger" Scotland, despite their vote being a shade under that same 68% to remain in the UK The few Orkney Islanders I know see themselves as being as much Scottish as some Scots see themselves as British, ie not very.

                        I hope you can see the comparison I'm making here between the actuality of democratic votes and your opinion.

                        1. Lysenko

                          Re: @ Lysenko

                          @John Brown

                          I think you missed the point. "England" is not an homogeneous single mass of people.

                          Constitutionally, it is and it has been (for the purposes of this discussion) since 1707. England and Wales are a single country for the purposes of legislation. England and Scotland are not. You can argue that they should be and, with majoritarianism, you can make it happen.

                          In a "mob rule" version of democracy (which is what unfettered one man, one vote is), you can do whatever you like. You can also reinstate the death penalty as soon as there's a nasty child murder - then repeal it again as soon as the first innocent is executed. Wash, rinse, repeat. Representative democracy is supposed to curb reactionary mob instincts and oppression of minorities. You might think a country ruled by the same voting system as the X-Factor is utopia, but I don't.

                          As for the Orcadians, they're perfectly welcome (from my perspective) to stay in Greater England, or adopt a similar status to the Isle of Mann or rejoin Norway. They have their own history, identity and until quite recently, language as well.

Page:

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Other stories you might like