back to article Now Oracle stiffs its own sales reps to pocket their overtime, allegedly

Oracle was sued on Tuesday by a former sales rep for allegedly failing to pay overtime wages, in violation of America's federal Fair Labor Standards Act and Texas state law. The civil lawsuit, filed on behalf of plaintiff Daniel Wilson in district court in Austin, Texas, claims Oracle has been directing its sales staff – …

  1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

    Overtime falsification in the timesheet. How quaint. And how familiar.

    I can think of at least several companies I was unfortunate to work for in UK which did exactly the same.

    None of them could be arsed to pay a single penny for overtime though. So, at the time, I could not get what the deal is and why are my manager and the Human Remains droid being so persistent that I falsify my timesheet.

    Being older (and hopefully wiser) now, I know that there is sufficient precedent base regarding "time in lieu" on both overtime and travel to threaten them with a tribunal case and bugger off for several 2 week holidays in a year courtesy of accrued and unpaid overtime and travel time. In order to do that you have to have it recorded, documented and acknowledged (and that is exactly the reason why they are asking you to falsify it).

    1. Nick Kew

      Re: Overtime falsification in the timesheet. How quaint. And how familiar.

      Yep. Get folks into the habit early. In my case, my first job after graduating made it abundantly clear that working whatever hours it takes for no extra pay was all part of being a professional person, as opposed to a unionised blue-collar worker. So that's the norm.

      1. Gordon 10

        Re: Overtime falsification in the timesheet. How quaint. And how familiar.

        EU Working directive aside - thats fine if you are salaried - as your contract usually contains a clause along the lines of "working hours as necessary for the role", but not if you are paid hourly.

        More simplistically -

        blue collar = hourly = potential overtime.

        white collar = salary = no overtime (but potentially more flexibility if you have a decent employer)

        1. Bronek Kozicki

          Re: Overtime falsification in the timesheet. How quaint. And how familiar.

          blue collar and lawyers, of course.

          (ducks)

          1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
            Unhappy

            "blue collar and lawyers, of course."

            And accountants

            And Doctors in private practice.

        2. CheesyTheClown

          Re: Overtime falsification in the timesheet. How quaint. And how familiar.

          Overtime?

          I’ve worked generally 60+ hours a week for the past 25 years. WhenI became a father, I worked less because priorities changed. I however would never work a job that doesn’t excite me enough to do it all the time. People generally pay me to do what I want to do even if I wasn’t working. I don’t think I’ve ever received overtime. Though if they ask me to work more on things which bore me, I often get bonuses.

          That said, I generally negotiate as part of my salary “I’m going to work a lot more than 40 hours a week and don’t want to be bothered asking for overtime. Just pay me based 50% more and we’ll call it even”.

          Then again, I don’t really look for jobs. I simply leave if I don’t get what I want and we all end up happy in the end.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Overtime falsification in the timesheet. How quaint. And how familiar.

          white collar = salary = no overtime (but potentially more flexibility if you have a decent employer)

          dog + lawn = dogshit on lawn (but very easy to clear up if you have a concrete lawn)

  2. Anonymous South African Coward Bronze badge

    Bottom line - it is YOUR time, and the company should pay you for your time, especially after-hours.

    If they don't want to, then they must not expect you to work for free above and beyond your normal working hours.

    Unfortunately companies will always take advantage of their workers. Sad.

    1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      Companies fail to understand that time recording is a double edged sword

      I have seen time and again companies failing to grok that time recording is a double edged sword.

      You can have all kinds of interesting issues with it. If you allow employees to record time correctly you end up with liabilities for overtime. If you force the employees to record time incorrectly you have different liabilities instead. Specifically, billing a customer for anything which explicitly contains hours worked while falsifying time records in some jurisdictions is by both precedent and actual law a form of fraud. Me and a couple of my US colleagues had some interesting time explaining this to the pointy haired idiots in one large and well known UK company which were insisting that timesheets are filled 4 days in advance. They even tied up managerial bonuses to their teams submitting for 4 days in advance deadline.

      There are other issues too. There are jurisdictions (one nice thing about Colorado) where if you quit your overtime will be paid regardless of what your contract says about it provided it is documented. It also has to be paid immediately on the date you leave - no ifs, no buts, no coconuts. And so on.

      All in all, it is a can of worms which a company should not open unless it is ready to deal with the the financial and legal consequences.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    My company has a system to record overtime, but says we should ask permission from our manager before we work overtime. Managers generally answer we have no reason to work overtime. In practice, there is so much work to do that many people work overtime without reporting it.

    On the other hand, the salary is very good, work conditions excellent, so people see no reason to complain.

    1. hplasm
      Facepalm

      "On the other hand..."

      You are all slaves. Don't you see that?

      What happens if the work isn't done?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "On the other hand..."

        What happens if the work isn't done?

        We get lower bonuses. If it's bad enough, we need to find another job at a different company with much lower compensation, even if they pay overtime.

        In a sense, this isn't different from having paid overtime with a slightly lower salary.

      2. FIA Silver badge

        Re: "On the other hand..."

        On the other hand, the salary is very good, work conditions excellent, so people see no reason to complain.

        or... you're given fair remuneration for the work you do and the place you do it is nice? Sounds like an ideal job to me.

        You are all slaves. Don't you see that?

        That word doesn't mean what you think it means.

        Given the nature of this site and the OPs comment, it's also a fair assumption that they do a professional skilled job with decent pay, where the amount of pay for effort worked is much higher than the average. Frankly, if you think that's slavery your life is probably a lot better than you think it is.

  4. Richard Jones 1
    Joke

    Did Larry Need a New Yatch?

    Headline said all.

    Or was it a joke at all?

    1. DJV Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: Did Larry Need a New Yatch?

      Maybe he needs a new dictionary (or spell checker) instead!

      Yatch -> Yacht

      1. Steve K

        Re: Did Larry Need a New Yatch?

        A Yatch has several slang meanings (as per UrbanDictionary at least) as well as being a mis-spelling of Yacht.

        Who knows what else Larry wants on his yacht.....

    2. Tim99 Silver badge
      Coat

      Re: Did Larry Need a New Yatch?

      One Rich Arsehole Called Larry Ellison - Allegedly.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Personally i find overtime payment when you are commission based salary strange.

    Your target should reflect what you can achieve within the year to sell.

    As you can overachieve on your commission and get substantially more money... but if you choose to do so by overtime then why should the company also pay for those additional hours when it already pays for the additional commission ... i dont actually see why the company should pay overtime.

    Unless of course they have set a target that is un-achievable within the normal working week then it needs to be lowered.

  6. Pascal Monett Silver badge

    Working overtime now and then is perfectly normal and, in a normal company, it should not be an excuse to get more money. There are days like that and you're part of a team, so pull your weight and everyone will appreciate.

    However, if working overtime becomes a regularly repeating occurrence, then it should definitely be paid for at least two reasons : 1) you are in effect working longer weeks regularly so you should be compensated, and 2) the company needs to understand that it might benefit from hiring another person to lessen the load on the others.

    My stance on overtime is simple : if you tell me no overtime is paid, then I'm not working overtime. And don't come and blame me for projects that are late, you're management ; you're supposed to be aware of my workload and find solutions to lighten it if necessary.

    Reminds me of the time I was in a certain company with the manager always coming to me with new urgent things that had to be done right away. After the fourth addition I looked directly at him and asked whether it was right away before the thing for the Director, or right away after that ? I then shoved the list in front of him and told him that I needed an order of execution. He blustered his way out of that, but I didn't see him for the rest of the day. Thankfully I was not long at that company.

    1. jb99

      But then also it should work the other way round too :-

      "Paying more money from time to time is perfectly normal and, in a normal company, it should not be an excuse to ask for more working hours."

      Why is only one sided?

    2. phuzz Silver badge

      I disagree with the first part of your comment (I expect to be compensated for the work I do, if I have to work late I expect pay or time off), but this part I very much agree with:

      "My stance on overtime is simple : if you tell me no overtime is paid, then I'm not working overtime. And don't come and blame me for projects that are late, you're management ; you're supposed to be aware of my workload and find solutions to lighten it if necessary."

      If you can't get all of your allotted work done in the time available (and you're not being a lazy/incompetent git), then it's your manager's problem for giving you too much work.

      There's another side to this as well, working more than about 50 hours per week reduces your efficiency in the long run. So if your manager wants you to work more than that, then they are actively harming the business.

    3. Kevin McMurtrie Silver badge

      ...so pull your weight and everyone will appreciate

      Those are salaried jobs. You work as long as it takes to get some amount of work done and you get paid for that work. Salary is also periodically renegotiated based on performance.

      Hourly workers are told exactly when to arrive and exactly when to leave. That time is meticulously tracked and any falsification is grounds for firing. Big companies have a habit of telling people to regularly falsify time sheets then firing anyone that complains. The grounds firing may simply be an example where you falsified a time sheet (as you were told to do). This "with cause" termination usually cancels all accumulated benefits that would otherwise be due to the employee. People who find themselves suddenly unemployed from a nearly poverty-level salary can't afford lawyers to fight back.

      Oracle has money to properly pay employees. There are no excuses.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Overtime in a sales role?

    I get work anything I like over 40 hours a week. No overtime though.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Overtime in a sales role?

      OK, if you are not expecting to be paid overtime, its up to you how much extra time you are prepared to give before you quit.

      It's something else altogether to have it as a policy, along with a policy to lie about what company you are working with, and what you are spending your time on, in order that the employer can break policy #1

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Overtime in a sales role?

      In my casual reading of the article, it wasn't clear to me if the complainant was field or office based. IME field based "account executives" are some of the laziest f*ckers on the planet, who think nothing of falsifying activity reports, timesheets, mileage and expenses. And the same view is held by the sales directors with whom I've worked.

      Take my next door neighbour, a full time field sales rep. Lazy witch doesn't go out for days on end, but she'll often get in the car, start it, and then sit in it on the drive with the engine running, in order to make authentic sounding hands-free calls. After making a few calls she'll turn the engine off and go back to Cash in the Attic, cleaning the house, or gardening. I've even several reasons to believe that she's a full time sales rep for more than one company, using some of her multiple names (three times divorced, so that's maiden name, three married names, and a couple of combinations she uses as double-barrelled).

      Of course, none of that may apply if the Oracle complainant was office based, and can prove his claim, but I thought I'd share it with the world.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Overtime in a sales role?

        Oh the difficulty in choosing to work for Oracle or watch 'Cash in the Attic'.

        Frankly, I'd rather watch paint dry than either of them.

        At least my last stint of Gardening Leave (job went to India) allowed me to finish my Novel. Not a rip roaring success but I did get £39.45 from Amazon last month. It beats watching daytime TV anyday.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Paid overtime...I wish

    Where I am there is a culture from the 60s/70s where you are expected to be in before the big boss and leave after him regardless of what you are contracted to work. They also explain that pointing to your contract is not being part of the team.

    I try to keep my unpaid overtime down to an hour or so a day (yes, one extra days work per week, a month and a half free work over the year) and get comments about 'leaving early'. Come the day that shelf-stacking pays enough to cover my monthly outgoings I will take great delight in telling them where to put their unpaid overtime, and their job.

    1. Velv
      Gimp

      Re: Paid overtime...I wish

      Unless you are the only person on the bottom rung of the ladder, why are you and your colleagues persisting the "culture".

      If a substantial number of colleagues can highlight that working the hours of the big boss is NOT in the best interests of the company you'll have better engaged employees who'll probably do more work in less time.

      A good boss will already know this and should be directing their management team to change the culture. A poor boss expects you to be there when they arrive and still be there when they leave. Or is the culture set by the mid-level staff who don't actually know what the big boss wants...

    2. tfewster
      Facepalm

      Re: Paid overtime...I wish

      We're all one big team! So I'll give the company some of my free time if the company gives me something in return - Like money!

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Paid overtime...I wish

      I once worked at a Japanese bank where the culture was that the boss arrived before any of us, and was expected to remain until the last of us had left. He used to come round begging us to go home.

  9. Wolfclaw

    Sorry, my motto is no pay, no work !

    My company is engrossed in timesheets they ask us to fill in days in advance for end of months, codes for this that and the other, swore I saw one for choking the chicken for an hour, just so they can get their projection spreadsheets updated for the next management level to work on and so on and so on, until the last bean counter has signed off. I do, but never go back to correct them, that's their problem, if the following months figures are out by a small amount.

  10. rmason

    The place I just left...

    Just left a business (6 months into new role) that would and will be flat on it's arse if not for it's culture of unpaid overtime.

    Very high staff turnover (like me) because it turns out they only want the "type" who are happy that arriving an hour early and leaving an hour or two late *every day* is normal and acceptable practice. the truth is that without they cannot provide the support they sell to customers. It means I used to watch 5 people cycle through the chair opposite mine before they finally found someone who would put up with it, and was too lazy to look for better work once they secured a job,

    It'll be the same core 10-15 people still there in 5 years i'll bet. Along with 100 folk who lasted 1-6 months.

    They take the piss, and it's baked in there and absolutely necessary for them to continue to trade.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I worked for an American company once, in their UK-based support centre.

    The expectation was that we would start work at 8, finish at 5 (with an hour's lunch break which I got to religiously taking out of the office) then spend up to an hour sorting out the backlog.

    With a 7am start from home and a 6pm arrival back there was no way I was paying for company to have me in the office for free, especially if it meant getting home at 7pm or later.

    The kicker was when all 4 or 5 of us were asked to stay on for some training organised by the US (West Coast) developers - seeing as it would have started at 6pm UK time as the developers weren't due in till 1000 their time, the company was surprised none of us attended...

    And this wasn't a poor startup either - publicly traded but still in the start-up headcount. I was happy to leave with a week's notice for a much more highly paid role.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "Managers told staff to report 40 hour weeks even if they worked more, lawsuit claims"

    Common practice in UK.

    I am salaried for 40 hours. 50 or 60 hours is my time, which I never get back. Try and timesheet for more and it messes up customer invoices too (as your charged out at 8 hours/day)

  13. Daedalus

    I'm no salesist but...

    We all hate sales droids, but without them there are no sales. And I am constantly surprised to see companies mistreat their sales people to the point where they should quit and go work somewhere else. Some companies here in the U$A have been sunk because they caused panic in the salesforce who took themselves and their highly adaptable skills elsewhere, killing the revenue stream that keeps the manglers mangling.

    1. ecofeco Silver badge

      Re: I'm no salesist but...

      Amazing isn't it. Actually its insane. I'll never inderstsnd it either.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Overtime for sales?

    I worked in technical sales my whole business life (in the UK) across several IT vendors. Big ones. Including Oracle (UK)

    There was no such concept as hours and thus, overtime at any of them for field staff. OK tehre wasa nominal number (37.5 IIRC) in your contract of employment but that was irrelevant. You did what was needed to get the job done. Might be 80 hours one week and 20 the next, and in any case there were no timesheets, no one monitored time and how can you, if you are say working from home one day, or driving but on calls, or driving over an 8 hour day but only 2 at the customer, how many hours is that? Or helping a customer with an issue at the weekend? What do you log? I'd just have said to my manager "spent Sunday helping Acme fix a bug, I wont be in on Tuesday".

    These must be office based wonks coid calling unfortunate recipients of a spiel because i worked in the US as well with Oracle staff, and none of those staff were to be seen clocking in or recording time either. Larry didn't give a s**t if you worked for 4 or 40 or 400 hours as long as you brought the big deals in.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Overtime for sales?

      UK and US employment law aren't really comparable. For one, a US employee doesn't necessarily have a contract. This makes them particularly easy to fire, but in return are paid by the hour rather than in the form of a fixed salary, so are due overtime.

      This coupled with the fact the case has even been brought (since when was base pay important to an AE?) leads me to believe the unfortunate chap who has been screwed is more than likely some low level "inside sales" rep or SDR or similar, who is paid minimum wage and dependent on entirely unrealistic "pipeline generation" targets for their income.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    You're just renting me...

    They can have free hours as long as they give me free money.

    I am absolutely straight with them and expect the same back.

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