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You know what's coming next: FBI is upset it can't get into Texas church gunman's smartphone

FBI can't unlock smartphone

If they could, would that change anything?

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Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

Not at all, because the FBI is barking up the wrong tree. They need to be figuring out why this fucktard was able to skirt around all of the red flags that, by all accounts, should have prevented this sick fuck from getting firearms (legally) with the rap sheet that he already had. Unfortunately, even if he had been legally unable to get firearms, he would have still gotten them on the black market anyway. That's the problem. It's always these hot-headed rage-a-holics that end up with firearms. Inevitably, innocent people pay the price with their lives. What the fuck difference will it make if the FBI can look at his phone? It certainly won't solve anything, because the American government doesn't want to admit that it has a gun-related violence problem, not an encryption problem.

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Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

"our efforts to try to find justice here"

Seems they think he left justice in his phone.

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Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

But think of all the poor children who died.

Something must be done, and getting a law passed that the FBI can unlock iPhones is the least we can do

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Anonymous Coward

Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

@ Sureo

Right. He was clearly a disturbed individual - felt rejected, dejected, depressed and anti-social etc. - he hurt animals etc.

There's nothing on the phone that will help things now.

@ inmypjs & another anonymous

Yup, it would be a shameless use of tragedy for a power grab.

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Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

"Something must be done, and getting a law passed that the FBI can unlock iPhones is the least we can do"

Riiiiight. Because he used his PHONE to kill innocent people, not a gun.

Put down the crack pipe.

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Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

Two reason. First the Airforce failed to have his conviction into the national data base. Secondly being committed to a military nut house does not bar you from owning guns. If he had been civilly commented to a private or sate run nut house he would of been bared from having guns

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Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

There is presumably a small logical difficulty in preventing violent killers in the military having guns

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Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

Sure, not allowing active duty military access to guns would be difficult, but he was no longer active duty when he bought the guns. There is no reason they couldn't have stopped him from doing so if the process was sane and worked.

Mental illness in the military isn't reported up the chain to allow banning someone from buying guns. Which makes no sense, as a mentally ill person who is fully trained on using weapons presents a greater danger than a mentally ill person who is not.

What's worse, Trump also signed legislation passed by congress in early February (i.e. it was one of their legislative priorities!) to undo an Obama regulation that mandated the Social Security Administration must report on mentally ill recipients and people deemed unfit to handle their own financial affairs. I don't know under what tortured logic it makes sense for someone getting social security disability payments for mental illness to be able to buy guns, other than Trump's childish urge to try to erase everything Obama did.

There are enough mass shootings, eventually one will come along that was enabled specifically by Trump's law....but somehow he'll pass the buck and claim someone lied to him about what was in the bill he was signing so it isn't his fault, and his dimwitted followers will probably believe it.

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Big Brother

Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

(general comment)

That's right, leave no tragedy UNEXPLOITED by political activism.

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Unhappy

" Secondly being committed to a military nut house does not bar you from owning guns."

which is odd because I'd have thought with the manpower shortage in the US Military you'd have to be showing severe symptoms of looniness to get a bed.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: " Secondly being committed to a military nut house does not bar you from owning guns."

Let's face it mental issues should stop no one from being in the army, the commander in chief being the prime example.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

oh yes, ABSOLUTELY! Then, they would be able to prevent all crimes-to-be-commited, because.

...

What?! After all, if A = B, then B = ANYTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING! :/

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@John Smith 19

Is that related to Catch 22?

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Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

That's right, leave no tragedy UNEXPLOITED by political activism.

No, it's pretty obvious that the problem isn't in his phone, it's in letting people unfit to have guns, have guns.

If this turns into another FBI banging on about "we must be able to access his phone for great justice" thing, then that there is the EXPLOITATION. They can use another tragedy to bang on about phones, but not this one because we already know everything we need to know - the army and the police both knew they had to flag him so he couldn't buy a gun, but neither of them did due to procedural failures.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

"What?! After all, if A = B, then B = ANYTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING! :/"

Exactly. Let's all give up and go for a drink.

Mines a bbnbnb daquiri, please.

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Boffin

Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

"There is presumably a small logical difficulty in preventing violent killers in the military having guns"

He was disgracefully discharged from the Military, and as a matter of policy such people are meant to be added to the "no guns" list. Clearly the "no guns" list is an effective gun control...

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Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

Mines a bbnbnb daquiri, please.

Shouldn't that be a 'bbnbnb dbquiri?

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Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

Oh but this isn't a guns issue, just like Las Vegas wasn't the right time to talk about gun control, both shooters would have been able to kill or injure just as many people by pointing finger guns and shouting 'pew pew, pew pew' at their victims.

Fucking idiots, quite how anyone can say with a straight face that removing guns from the hands of the public wouldn't help prevent this sort of tragedy is beyond me.

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Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

His "criminal record...should have prevented those purchases."

BUT: "the Air Force also acknowledged it inexplicably failed to enter his conviction into a government database that all licensed firearms dealers are required to use to screen prospective gun buyers for their criminal history.

Federal law prohibits anyone from selling a gun to someone who has been convicted of a crime involving domestic violence against a spouse or child."

(https://www.reuters.com/article/us-texas-shooting/texas-church-gunman-escaped-mental-facility-in-2012-while-facing-court-martial-idUSKBN1D715Q)

SO, he SHOULDN'T have been able to buy a gun, but the system FAILED the people...

Your point remains: what this has to do with his cell phone, surely no one will explain to us.

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Joke

Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

"There is presumably a small logical difficulty in preventing violent killers in the military having guns"

Ordinarily I'd agree with you, but this is the Air Force we're talking about.

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Re: " Secondly being committed to a military nut house does not bar you from owning guns."

Airforce is different. They have always had tighter rules and regs for fitness rep and are the first to cull when they don't need man power. It was the Army And marines that were suffering shortages during the gulf war . That's why Bowe Bergdahl was accepted into the Army even though the coast guard bounced saying that he was mentally unfit for duty.

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Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

He had a bcd discharge. had he a dishonorable discharge that alone would of bared him from owning guns. And frankly I think beating your wife and child qualifies for a dishonorable discharge.

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Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

" If he had been civilly commented to a private or sate run nut house he would of been bared from having guns"

Even then, there's very little to prevent him getting a gun, American society is awash with them and it shows in the stats just how dangerous it is to have them so easily available.

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Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

"removing guns from the hands of the public wouldn't help prevent this sort of tragedy is beyond me."

And just how do you plan to do that? One the second amendment allows for gun ownership. Secondly how do you plan on removing private gun ownership.

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Facepalm

Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

"There are enough mass shootings, eventually one will come along that was enabled specifically by Trump's law.."

He's doing his best to make this the one by claiming it was due to mental illness!

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Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

It cant be done. Even if US-holy-constitution was rewritten and guns were illegal , theres no way in hell theyd be able to get rid of the millions of guns in circulation , especially with 50% of the population in the "pry it from my cold dead fingers" demographic. Equally no amount of mental health laws would have stopped that asshole getting a gun.

We can barely keep a lid on it in this country where they've never been in circulation and arnt a god given right in the minds of the population.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

> One the second amendment allows for gun ownership.

The clue is in the phrase... 'Amendment' - ie a change to the constitution. So just add another amendment to nullify the 2nd, just like the 18th Amendment (prohibition) was nullified by the 21st Amendment.

Of course understanding how these things work is probably beyond your limited intellectual capacity.

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Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

One: Well the amendment specifically says "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" which opens up all manner of possibilities/legal wrangling even while leaving that in place. Moves to extend that right still further are actually quite recent. Also the constitution can be amended if the political will exists, the threats to persons,state and property when this document was written are different to those today.

Two: In phases with amnesties much as other nations have done in the past, you start with the most ridiculous and work your way down. There are also other options to outright bans, a legal requirement to hold and use certain firearms types in designated/certified ranges for example.

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Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

Fucking idiots, quite how anyone can say with a straight face that removing guns from the hands of the public wouldn't help prevent this sort of tragedy is beyond me.

The counter argument goes that if the bad guys are using guns when the good guys have guns, they will still be using them when the good guys have surrendered theirs. Limiting gun sales won't prevent bad guys having guns. Removing guns doesn't make things better, only worse.

America is a fucked-up country starting from a fucked-up position while the rest of the civilised world are in the better position of preventing their countries from becoming fucked-up. Americans therefore see things differently to how others do.

While America believes it is better to have guns than not, believes having guns saves more lives than are taken by guns, it's going to stay how it is. Innocent people dead is simply the acceptable price to pay for having those guns.

America is beyond the tipping point and it's a long hard road back. It may be impossible because fucked-up America is not prepared to do what is needed to be done.

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Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

theres no way in hell theyd be able to get rid of the millions of guns in circulation , especially with 50% of the population in the "pry it from my cold dead fingers" demographic.

It could be done. It wouldn't be pretty and there might be a lot of cold dead fingers stretching out for taken guns afterwards.

It is having the will to do it which is the obstacle, deciding that is the thing to do for the greater good. It likely won't be as easy and as bloodless as it was in Australia. It would likely require some sort of revolution in America to bring it about, a "grand reset". I can't see that happening any time soon.

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Re: " Secondly being committed to a military nut house does not bar you from owning guns."

Back in the 20's and 30's there were a number of US Presidents (Commander in Chiefs) who did not have military experience. There have been a few others along the way as well, but not in groups like that, until recently. 3 of the last 4 Presidents have lacked military experience (and there are those that claim GW Bush's service wouldn't count - that's a different topic).

So the two worst downturns in the US economy were during strings of non-military CiCs. Yeah, correlation isn't causation, but digging deeper there would be interesting.

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Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

>Well the amendment specifically says "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" which opens up all manner of possibilities/legal wrangling even while leaving that in place.

Indeed. A law which required anyone wanting a gun to sign up to their National Guard (and accept NG discipline) - would satisfy the 2nd amendment fully.

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Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

"wouldn't help prevent this sort of tragedy is beyond me"

The murderous insane and criminal would be very happy if there were fewer guns in America - less chance of them being shot and if they really couldn't get hold of guns they could just copy the mussie terrorist and drive trucks into people.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

"how anyone can say with a straight face that removing guns from the hands of the public wouldn't help prevent this sort of tragedy is beyond me."

The difficulty lies in how does one go about that and you can't with absolute certainty say it will actually be a net gain (1)(2) considering in this very instance he was driven off by another guy with an AR-15? Given the current rise in ramming attacks (3) and that they are equally as effective (4) will there be a call to ban cars and trucks? Sure, it's possible to ban guns and you'll find that about 15% get turned in at which point you might feel good but it doesn't really change anything unless you're ready to go door to door, 4th Amendment be damned, and try to take them by force. That will be a recipe for more gun violence than you may be prepared for if not outright civil war as many police and military will find any allegiance they had to the newly instituted police state rapidly dissolving.

The system to keep guns from crims already exists and should have worked but it didn't in this case because of an error in transmitting his military conviction to the NICS database, that's it. Nothing is perfect and unfortunately this nutter was able to purchase a gun through the normal sales channel. Guesses as to what would have happened had he not been able to buy a gun at the gun shop are as pointless as counting pixies dancing on the head of a pin, would he have laid in wait and stabbed the targeted in-laws, built a bomb, bought a gun on the black market, rented or stolen a large truck, etc. Maybe he just would have held his breath until everybody did what he felt was right by him but I'm not getting that vibe.

(1) http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2013/06/201361625721431960.html

(2)http://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-crime/venezuela-crushes-2000-guns-in-public-plans-registry-of-bullets-idUSKCN10S2I9

(3) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-ramming_attack

(4)https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/14/nice-bastille-day-france-attack-promenade-des-anglais-vehicle

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Anonymous Coward

Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

>One the second amendment allows for gun ownership

So - cancel the 2nd Amendment.

Or, barring that, use it for the purpose intended (to be a check on a tyrannical government). Too many people stop reading at the "bear arms" bit without going onto the militia bit.

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Re: " Secondly being committed to a military nut house does not bar you from owning guns."

like that, until recently. 3 of the last 4 Presidents have lacked military experience

And the current one reportedly got draft exemption on the basis that his daddy was rich..

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Happy

Re: @John Smith 19

@Nick Kew. Probably more CPL Maxwell Q Klinger (and it didn't work fo him either). PP

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Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

There is presumably a small logical difficulty in preventing violent killers in the military having guns

Actually...

1 this was the Air Force. Very few people in the Air Force have access to small arms, that's not their thing. Honking great nukes, that's different.

2 even in arms of service where a lot of folk have access to small arms, very few have access to them under normal circumstances. Every Marine is a rifleman (even the women) but usually the rifles are locked up. The Army is worse: large chunks of the Army never see a rifle once out of basic training, and same with the Navy, there not being much call for a rifle when you're 300 metres down in a nuke sub or are sitting on an aircraft carrier umty-ump thousand miles from land.

3 the serious head cases tend to gravitate towards the kind of unit where they would have lots of access to small arms. This would tend to put them in units more likely to spend a lot of time out in the bush getting shot at by the head cases on the other side, if they manage to qualify for such units. In many cases they won't, as they often have other problems which disqualify them. The number of violent killers even in gung ho macho special forces units is quite low, and often gets lower when they do something which irritates and/or endangers the others in the unit and they have an unfortunate accident. The military would much rather have the likes of Alvin York or Carlos Hathcock than a violent nutbar.

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Prohibition doesn't work

Didn't work for alcohol. Isn't working for drugs. Won't work for guns.

Regulation can work, at least to a degree. You can make it harder for those under 21 to procure alcohol, or for the mentally ill to procure a gun. Sometimes under 21 year olds are caught trying to buy booze, or in possession of it, or drunk from it and they get in trouble with the law and something they want (i.e. a driver's license, to play on the high school football team, etc.) can be taken away from them. That threat stops some of them from doing it. Not all, but if your goal is to prevent teenagers from drinking it is at least a partial success.

The same could be done with guns. There's no reason we can't close gaps in the process to make it harder for those determined to be mentally ill to buy or own guns, closing the gun show loophole, etc. Won't stop them all, but if those gaps had been closed up this tragedy might never have happened. Sure we can't know that as the same black market that supplies drugs also supplies guns. So those who argue it wouldn't have mattered might be right, but they can't know that anymore than someone claiming it would have stopped him could know it. To argue that we shouldn't do something because we can't be sure it works is to argue we shouldn't have any laws at all - because the law against murder doesn't stop all killing, the law against stealing doesn't stop all bank robberies, etc.

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Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

"the second amendment allows for gun ownership."

And it's working out very well isn't it?

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Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

>>One the second amendment allows for gun ownership

>So - cancel the 2nd Amendment.

>Or, barring that, use it for the purpose intended (to be a check on a tyrannical government). Too many >people stop reading at the "bear arms" bit without going onto the militia bit.

I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding of intent with this.

A Militia recruits/drafts members expecting them to supply their own firearms (or did in this time in history).

So having citizenry unable to acquire said firearms would negate that.

Also the term regulated was not used in the manner we think of it today.

Not that this whole amendment isn't archaic, however you need to understand the framers' intents when they were drafting it.

Yours

a non gun nut who thinks the septics are far to heavily armed, and far to ready to use said arms for comfort.

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Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

"He was disgracefully discharged from the Military, and as a matter of policy such people are meant to be added to the "no guns" list. Clearly the "no guns" list is an effective gun control..."

So maybe a change of list type from negative vetting (there's nothing to say this person shouldn't have a gun) to positive vetting (this person has applied to their appropriate local authority, who have checked out their background and decided they are a fit person to own a lethal weapon?

It works in a number of other countries, it just means that the purchaser has to plan ahead and get the clearance to own the gun before heading for the nearest gun shop.

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Unhappy

"A law which required anyone wanting a gun to sign up to their National Guard"

Indeed.

"Service guarantees citizenship."

Did no one wonder where that idea came from?

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GBE

Something must be done

Something must be done, and getting a law passed that the FBI can unlock iPhones is the least we can do.

I don't see why you got down-voted for this, since that's _exactly_ the sort of thing that happens in these cases. Any restrictions on military-grade firearms (the one thing that _would_ help) is right out, so the FBI might as well pick some totally unrelated goal they want to achieve and try to get some mileage towards that.

Somewhere, somebody is probably trying to use this mass shooting to justify passing a law to persecute LGBT people, immigrants, scientists, etc.

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Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

That law that he just un-did, also prevented anyone from owning a gun that has ever been identified as depressed at any point in their life. When my father died I was depressed (who wouldn't be) I went to counseling (since it was free from work) for a session just to talk it out. By that one instance, at anytime my license could be revoked. "That law should have been fixed and not removed", but it was poorly written. The press doesn't report things that aren't drama, but you can look it up if you feel like it.

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Re: Something must be done

I don't see why you got down-voted for this, since that's _exactly_ the sort of thing that happens in these cases.

It's a special el'reg trick for identifying British readers.

ie. "Like brassy or goldy but made of iron"

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Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

"Something must be done"

This is something. Bugger all use, but it is something.

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resurrect Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

Maybe they can then resurrect some of the dead ...

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Facepalm

Re: FBI can't unlock smartphone

Latest is that it was indeed an iPhone and they could have used his finger to unlock the phone within 48 hours but after that they need the passcode. Needless to say, they sat on their hands trying desperately to find their arse for well over 48 hours and the easy option faded away. Expect a request for 48,000 hours before the fingerprint doesn't work anymore and to not put in a delay until after 20 or more failed fingers.

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