back to article ¡Dios mío! Spain blocks DNS to hush Catalonian independence vote sites

As a controversial referendum on the independence of Catalonia draws near, the Spanish government has expanded efforts to shut it down, even blocking access to some websites. After a number of .cat websites covering the referendum were aggressively shut down by the authorities, pro-independence groups set up new websites at …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    A government using blocking set up for terrorists and copyright for something else.

    I would never in a million years have thought that would ever happen.

    Maybe our mainstream press should now sit up and take notice because if they don't it's them that will get blocked at some point.

    1. Adam 52 Silver badge

      That's all right because we'll have the European courts to protect our freedom of speech. Oh.

      1. DavCrav

        "That's all right because we'll have the European courts to protect our freedom of speech. Oh."

        Because that's worked so well in Catalunya.

        1. Adam 52 Silver badge
      2. Nonymous Crowd Nerd

        The European Court doesn't to be doing too well at protecting free speech for the Catalonians does it?

    2. wolfetone Silver badge

      "Maybe our mainstream press should now sit up and take notice because if they don't it's them that will get blocked at some point."

      The mainstream press would need to start telling the truth more often than lying for them to be affected.

      1. K
        Trollface

        @wolfetone

        How dare you post this fake news.. The UK press is impartial, never pushes the political agenda of their owners and can be trusted. They are 110% honest, and can be trusted, it's the right thing!

        Donald Trump, owners and editors of major UK press publications approve this message

    3. Dan 55 Silver badge
      Big Brother

      The Spanish government has said today it's DNS blocked more than 140 websites which support the referendum (link).

      So when central government talk about the rule of law and Catalonia has to follow the law, as they always do when this subject comes up, forgive me if I'm a bit cynical.

      The Catalan government has decided to use less blockable ways of getting the message across - a direct link to a CDN, a Telegram robot, a Twitter account, and an e-mail address (link).

      As you have to enter your ID number, date of birth, and postcode to get told the polling station where you have to vote, it brings up some interesting data protection questions.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Data protection

        The data is completely protected.

        The website has a table with salted hashes created with the private data and a pointer to a polling station.

        You enter the data, the hash is computed and if a matching is found the polling station is displayed.

        So no, no private data is in the database nor is saved with the check.

        Anonymous because I'm in Catalunya.

    4. ESmub68

      "A government using blocking set up for terrorists and copyright for something else."

      A Catalan government that uses children by moving them out of schools to attend to demonstrations of protest in the street... Unbelievable.

      A Catalan government that uses public funds to organize a referendum that has been prohibited by Spain Constitutional Court (equivalent of US Supreme Court).

      You all have to know that the Constitution of Spain stablishes that Spain is ONE SOVEREIGN PEOPLE and ONE SOVEREIGN NATION; This means that no region can assume the sovereignty of the whole Spain People and organize a referendum to decide their auto-determination. THIS IS THE LAW.

      I can expose a million more rational arguments as the above... anyway I would like to ask you to not to express such opinions without having the whole picture.

      Half-true facts are complete lies, someone stated.

      Sorry if my english is not good enough to express complex thoughts, not my natural language.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @ESmub68

        I'm sorry you feel that way about my comment, there are always two sides to every argument however the point I made had nothing to do with supporting Catalan it was to do with what the government is using it's powers for.

        Are the Catalonian terrorists?

        Are they copyright abusers?

        The answer to this is no therefore the government didn't create these powers to stop political discussion but to stop terrorists and copyright and they are abusing that power.

        I do not have all the information needed to form an opinion though at some point soon I will research the history and the reasons and make an informed choice.

      2. Ogi

        "A Catalan government that uses public funds to organize a referendum that has been prohibited by Spain Constitutional Court (equivalent of US Supreme Court).

        You all have to know that the Constitution of Spain stablishes that Spain is ONE SOVEREIGN PEOPLE and ONE SOVEREIGN NATION; This means that no region can assume the sovereignty of the whole Spain People and organize a referendum to decide their auto-determination. THIS IS THE LAW."

        A constitution is a piece of paper. Unless (a) all parties agree to abide by it, or (b) it is backed up by violence, it is worthless. The history books (and present reality in the world) is littered with quasi states that are partially recognised (Nagorno-Karabakh, Kosovo, Israel, Palestine, Taiwan, Transnistria for example), and constitutions that have been violated left right and centre to the point of meaninglessness.

        So far Spain had been trying to get all parties to abide by it. As that seems less and less likely to happen, they are bring it out the violence. It is a standard procedure, because if Spain says something is unconstitutional, and people go do it anyway, and there is no punishment, then other people may think they can violate the constitution as well.

        It is a tricky situation, because by doing this Spain is turning more Catalans against Madrid, which can well cause problems down the line. However if they did nothing, and the Catalans declare unilateral independence, that may inspire other parts of Spain to the same. The Basques in particular may feel emboldened themselves to demand the same.

        The question on my mind is this: If Spain ramps up the violence even more, more arrests, more denials of ability to vote, more suppression of independence opinions or talk, more "police action" against separatists. What will the Catalans do? Will they respond with violence? Roll over and submit? Push even harder for independence? Rarely do states peacefully allow a chunk of territory to leave (because that is the first crack in said states dissolution), so usually there is an armed insurrection at some point.

        I also wonder where the Catalans suddenly got the bravery to challenge Spain like this. They have been making noises about independence for decades, but never moved towards it.

        Usually when a minority in a country challenges the majority like this, and violates the constitution, it is because they have support of a stronger power. Someone who has an interest in an independence outcome, and the money, global political influence and/or army to support it. Without such a backer Catalonia would be crushed, and the Catalan politicians know this (hence they made noise, but no moves towards it for so long).

        1. ESmub68

          "A constitution is a piece of paper. Unless (a) all parties agree to abide by it, or (b) it is backed up by violence, it is worthless. The history books (and present reality in the world) is littered with quasi states that are partially recognised (Nagorno-Karabakh, Kosovo, Israel, Palestine, Taiwan, Transnistria for example), and constitutions that have been violated left right and centre to the point of meaninglessness."

          A Constitution is a piece of paper??? Are you serious?

          For sure you are not a USA citizen...

          OMG a hundred times.

          1. Strahd Ivarius Silver badge

            @ESmub68

            If the colonials had followed the law of the time, they wouldn't have become US citizens...

            1. ESmub68

              @Strahd Ivarious

              So, are you comparing the US Independence War with what is happening in Catalonia? C'mon

              Different ages, different geopolitical frameworks...

              Fortunately we are not in century XVIII; but if you mean that maybe Catalonians should fight for their independence, then this is the kind of thoughts I cannot even imagine at this time and this era.

              Spain is a democratic Nation and a member of the European Union and the Spain Constitution preserves the integrity of the Spain territory (as any other first-world Constitution law you might read).

              You all seem to support Catalonians following their romantic revolution; but things are quite more serious. Investigate, read the facts, THE TRUE FACTS, not the propaganda.

              1. Dan 55 Silver badge

                One of the people who drafted the Spanish constitution says it does not ban independence referendums - link (in English).

                Now you can either answer this in two ways:

                1. You don't like the news agency... but it's only reporting what he's saying.

                2. He's Catalan so he would say that... but he helped write the constitution.

              2. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

                So, are you comparing the US Independence War with what is happening in Catalonia? C'mon

                Have people changed? There was a nationalist war in Yugoslavia only a few years ago. There were terrorist campaigns in Northern Ireland and the Basque region of Spain until very recently.

                Catalonia has a lot of autonomy within Spain. This may be enough for everyone. In which case nothing bad will happen, and there will just be lots of complaining.

                What true facts should I read?

                You say that Spain is a democracy. Then why cannot the Catalans vote on this issue? Canada has done this with Quebec twice, the UK with Scotland, Czechoslovakia split into two countries amicably. So that's 3 countries that allowed one group to vote to decide their future.

                Why not Spain?

                If Spain fails to allow this issue to be settled by reasonable politics, then I would argue that Spain is not a very good democracy.

                Perhaps nationalism blinds you to common sense.

                What gives Spain the right to govern Catalonia? In a true democracy the answer is the consent of the goverened. That's the people of Catalonia. If Spain fails to keep that consent, then Spain is an empire, and Catalonia its colony. That is democracy.

                A bit like when the Spanish government says Gibraltar should belong to Spain. No. Gibraltar belongs to the people of Gibraltar. They get to decide who governs them. This is the basic principle of self-determination.

                1. ESmub68

                  "What true facts should I read?

                  You say that Spain is a democracy. Then why cannot the Catalans vote on this issue? Canada has done this with Quebec twice, the UK with Scotland, Czechoslovakia split into two countries amicably. So that's 3 countries that allowed one group to vote to decide their future."

                  I explained the reason in a former post hooked in this article. Please fetch it.

                  If Catalans want to decide their self-determination by means of a referendum then they have to request a change in the Constitution (which is something feasible as the law contemplates this scenario); but they have to follow the proceedings. What they are doing now is simply to disobey the law, which is totally illegal.

                  Some true facts are:

                  1. After 36 years living in Franco's dictatoship, Spain converted itself into a democratic state by voting a Constitution that establishes Spain as a one nation with one sovereign people.

                  2. Catalonians voted massively in favour of that Constitution, this happen before the implantation of the State of the Autonomies (regions that can run by themselves upon the State final supervision).

                  3. Under this constitutional framework, Catalonia has become the most advanced self-governed region in Europe with one or the highest level of living, economical, social and cultural progress.

                  Despite of these true facts, Catalonian leaders still claim for more privigeles and refuse to be ruled by Spain laws. This attitude shows egoism, unsolidarism and contributes to develop xenophobic behaviours within Catalonia region. Catalonian leaders are irresponsible and are fooling catalonians with false arguments to hold a referendum that is not valid at any instance, not only in Spain but also in Europe.

                  Of course, most of the spaniards ouside Catalonia are completely fed up with this situation and the eternal claims coming from independentist catalonians. This situation must finish and at this time there is no way to think of a win-win... one side has to lose.

                  If not clear yet I bet for Spain.

                  1. Dan 55 Silver badge

                    They've tried requesting a change and they get told no.

                    The nation might be defined indivisible but that doesn't stop a referendum taking place, as I posted above. One of the people who wrote the constitution said it wouldn't prevent referendums. Spain won't be torn asunder the moment the result is called.

                    Surely the best way to do it would be to have a referendum, then decide what to do based on the result. The result based on polling data shows it would be about 41% for independence. The central government can say "okay, we've heard you, let's see what we can do about your devolved powers". Just allowing the same tax-rasing powers that the Basque Country has would probably kill the independence movement overnight.

                    This cycle of "We're not listening to you till you have a legal referendum - no, we won't allow you to have a legal referendum" is beyond stupid.

                    Still a lot of open wounds 1939 to 1975. General Franco will be turning in his massive mausoleum.

                    Spain just swept it under the carpet, completely different from Germany's approach.

      3. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

        ESmub68,

        Your english is fine. It's difficult working in another language.

        And I understand your point, about the Spanish constitution. BUT, what if your constitution disagrees with international law?

        Chapter 1 of the UN Charter calls for the right of self-determination of peoples.

        That's a foundational document of international law, which Spain is signed up to. So if a large majority of Catalan people don't want to be Spanish, what then? What gives the rest of Spain the right to tell them?

        Not that this is simple. It's fair to set rules for referenda. But is it really acceptable to just say no? If Spain uses force to stop Catalans expressing their freedom, at what point does that make Catalonia just a colony of the rest of Spain?

        1. Wayland

          Might is Right

          Who has the bigger army with the most guns?

          Surely Spain can just bomb the region into the stone age? What about gassing them?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Might is Right

            Still a lot of open wounds 1939 to 1975. General Franco will be turning in his massive mausoleum.

        2. ESmub68

          Chapter 1 of the UN Charter calls for the right of self-determination of peoples.

          So you defend to have a discussion on the prevalence of the different laws, Spain Constitution and UN Charter.

          Given that the Catalan Govern is disobeying Spain law and claims for application of UN Charter, IMO the rational and democratic way of doing things should be to raise a request of statement coming from UN Council that considers if Chapter 1 should be applied in the case of Catalonia... Do you know why the Catalan Govern has not proceeded this way? because they absolutely know that chapter 1 cannot be applied in this case as Catalonia has never been a spanish Colony.

          What Catalonia Government is doing has a name and is REBELLION.

          1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

            Catalonia has never been a Spanish colony. Although in lilving memory people have been imprisoned for speaking the language. By the Spanish government who banned that language.

            Do you think this is likely to make Catalan people feel:

            a) warm and fuzzy feelings for the Spanish government, or

            b) distrust and possible dislike?

            Hmmmmm? I wonder...

            So question, what do you do about it? If Spain refuses to engage with reasonable Catalan requests for discussions on a referendum on independence, then what will happen next? Will the Catalans decide that Spain are right, and their national feeling is just something they've imagined? Or will this unite the majority who don't want independence with the minority who currently do?

            If Spain forces Catalans to be part of Spain when a large majority don't want to be, what is the difference then whether you call them a colony or not?

            The sensible thing to do is to negotiate now. If Spain acts reasonably now, then everyone may get some of what they want. The secessionists get a referendum which they lose fair-and-square, and Spain gets to stay a whole country.

            The alternative is far more uncertain.

          2. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

            ESmub68,

            I didn't want Scotland to leave the UK. But it turns out that about 45% of Scots currently do. Refusing to have a referendum was not going to make that number smaller. So we had one. The discussion all came out in the open.

            Because the result was close, that won't be the end of it. After a few years things may settle down, we'll probably have to have another referendum and maybe that will settle matters, as it did in Quebec.

            But if Scots don't feel that democracy is working for them, because they're in a country whose institutions they don't think meet their needs - then they should be independent. I think the UK has given them about as much autonomy as our system can cope with. If they still decide they need more, then we're either going to have to totally re-write our constitution (and maybe create an unwanted system of regional government in England) or they will decide to separate.

            Which would be sad. But is not rebellion. It is their democratic right.

          3. Dan 55 Silver badge

            What Catalonia Government is doing has a name and is REBELLION.

            The beatings will continue until morale improves.

      4. ardj

        As I understand it, the reason there is such support for independence now in Catalunya is that the People's Party in 2011 stopped an earlier enlargement of home rule, by petitioning the Constitutional Court to block the statue already endorsed by parliaments in Madrid and Barcelona. In other words, this who;e thing was caused by Sr Rajoy, and he has only himself to blame if he has provoked the Catalan people: it is certainly not a question of Constitutional principle, but a straightforward political argument.

        1. Dan 55 Silver badge

          And if you compare the Catalan and Valencian statues*, it turns out that articles in the Catalan statute were overturned by the constitutional court but the same articles in the Valencian statue were permitted.

          Valencia is a PP-voting region, Catalonia obviously is not.

          * the laws which define the devolved powers available to a region.

      5. nighto

        Missing upvotes?

        If you want up-votes, just go comment inside your friendly Spanish government supported press ( El Mundo, La Razon, ABC,...), where totalitarian think like yours ("THIS IS THE LAW") is widespread, and you will feel fully comfortable there. Remember that legal isn't the same as legitimate: All dictatorial states have laws,..uh?

        Out of Spain, things are a bit different what you are used to.

  2. Adam 52 Silver badge

    "What is clear is that even if the vote was taken and did result in a call for independence, Catalan would not be recognized by any other state."

    This is unlikely to be true. Whenever a region has declared independence in the past it has always been recognised by at least some other countries. Look at Kosovo for a recent example or Israel if you want to go further back. Or even Palestine.

    1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

      It's surely much easier to stop the referendum from happening than to deal with it if the result goes against. Obviously if there's only a turnout of 2% it'll be fine - but it looks bad enough stopping it from happening - let alone suppressing a result you've lost.

      As I understand it, the Catalan assembly doesn't have the power to call this referendum - and it may even take a change to the constitution for the central government to allow one. But much better to face it early than wait - as support for independence looks to be growing. Pro-independence parties got a majority in the regional elections (for the first time ever I think), as I understand it on the promise of this referendum rather than because a majority want independence.

      1. heyrick Silver badge

        as support for independence looks to be growing

        When the government behaves like this, is it any surprise?

  3. Unep Eurobats
    Facepalm

    Having their cake and eating it

    While I totally respect the autonomy and distinctiveness of the wonderful Catalan people and their region, this seems like another attempt by a nationalistic entity to have their cake and eat it. They want recognition of that autonomy and distinctiveness on the global stage without the consequences of true independence: the hard border, the trade deal negotiations, the economic self-reliance.

    They want to stick two fingers up to the Spanish government and get a warm glow inside without anything actually changing.

    1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      Re: Having their cake and eating it

      the hard border, the trade deal negotiations, the economic self-reliance.

      1. Who told you the border will need to be hard. This is not British Leave of "keep the smelly Eastern Europeans" out.

      2. Trade deal negotiations. Again. The intention is to join the queue for Eu and jump the queue for joining the Eu by having all laws in a state fit for purpose and already using the Euro.

      3. Economic self-reliance. The reason Spanish government is ready to start a Spanish Civil War No 2 is that IT IS NOT SELF RELIANT. Catalonia is. Rest of Spain keeps sucking money from it. While taking from Catalonia more than it gives back is a venerable tradition dating from before the War of Spanish Succession, it has never been a case of "If Catalonia Leaves, rest of Spain financially goes under". Until today. That is the reality today. That is also why the central government is refusing to allow Catalonia to collect their own taxes (the way Basque does).

      1. Named coward

        Re: Having their cake and eating it

        "join the queue for Eu and jump the queue for joining the Eu"...Spain would have Veto rights, so if Catalonia were to Exit the EU there would be no realistic way for them to get back in

  4. S4qFBxkFFg
    Stop

    See https://regmedia.co.uk/2017/09/22/referendum-cat.jpg

    When your logo has actual fasces in it, maybe you should ask questions of yourself instead of trying to live up to the symbolism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY

    1. phuzz Silver badge
      Facepalm

      So, you're saying the US House of Representatives should change it's décor?

      Or perhaps you might consider that some institutions continue to use what was originally a symbol of government and justice despite it's association with fascism.

      To put it another way the fasces wasn't as tainted as the swastika is.

  5. julian_n

    Remember, until 40 years ago Spain was a fascist dictatorship. Old habits die hard, I guess.

    I am sure Mugabe and his ilk will be impressed by how Rajoy can repress democracy and getting a few more ideas.

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      It does seem like it's going to kick off on Sunday. Think the miner's strike - police from everywhere else in the country being bussed and boated in to Catalonia... what could possibly go wrong?

      On the bright side, if you're a thief elsewhere in Spain now's a good time to put in some overtime.

      1. BigG

        Better than that - I hear of a chap having an affair with one of the plod's partners while plod is currently sat in a cramped cabin on a cruise ship in port (not the one with tweetie pie on the side).

    2. graeme leggett Silver badge

      I remember 1981 when a Guardia Civil commander (Antonio Tejero Molina) entered the Cortes and had a bit of a go at a coup d'état. "por Espana"

      There were tanks on streets of Valencia etc. Then Juan Carlos denounced it, appealed to remaining military and it rather fizzled out.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    even blocking access to some websites

    it would be great, if they tried to block access to "the register" on the grounds of "national security", "promoting extremism" and "terrorism-related material".

    No, seriously, what better publicity than a public demonstration of how democracy operates, AD 2017?

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: even blocking access to some websites

      As it's Spain the ISP block was done with the mininum work necessary. Change your settings to OpenDNS or Google DNS and job done.

  7. iron Silver badge

    Franco would be proud.

    1. m-k

      re. Franco would be proud.

      many advanced democracies would be proud. And they're watching closely, learning how to do likewise. I would say, it's being watched by UK glorious leadership too (re. Scotland) , but then, I'm pretty sure "appropriate action plan" is already in place, should it be necessary...

      1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

        Re: re. Franco would be proud.

        Scotland had its referendum. With few problems. It's pretty much agreed that they'll get another one, after the Brexit fun-and-games are all over.

        Perhaps, in this case, the Spanish government might learn something from the British...

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: re. Scotland had its referendum. With few problems

          So what exactly happened when the subject was floated a few months back, that Scotland should vote for independence again before the UK jumps the EU boat? Some unspecified threats from London. Then, all went quiet on the Scottish front (not because of threats, I guess, but the support was waning). I'm just wondering, what would have happened between London and Edinburgh had they pressed with their idea of 2nd referendum (and won).

          1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

            Re: re. Scotland had its referendum. With few problems

            So what exactly happened when the subject was floated a few months back, that Scotland should vote for independence again before the UK jumps the EU boat? Some unspecified threats from London.

            Nope. No threats, specified or unspecified. The UK government said they wouldn't pass a referendum bill. The SNP complained loudly. But polls showed that there was only something like 30% support for another referendum, even though 45% voted for independence last time. And the polls still show that about the same percentage support independence.

            Then there was a general election at which the SNP lost support and the unionist parties won some seats back. Now referendum talk has gone quiet. Unsurpisingly really.

            It is not unreasonable for the UK government to say that Scotland has voted to stay in the EU, and has to wait its turn for another go while the whole government is busy with Brexit. It would appear that many Scots agree.

            The Spanish government refuses to even have talks about holding a referendum on independence for Catalonia. Something that's politically stupid, morally wrong and in breach of the UN charter.

          2. JamesPond

            Re: re. Scotland had its referendum. With few problems

            "So what exactly happened when the subject was floated a few months back, that Scotland should vote for independence again before the UK jumps the EU boat? "

            Nicola Sturgeon's SNP did some polling and found that whilst >60% of Scots voted to stay in Europe, currently ~57% now want to stay in the United Kingdom (more than in the 1st vote) and >60% don't want a second referendum. Therefore the political winds are currently against the SNP so there were no need for threats from London. And if London had agreed to a second referendum on Scottish independence then as a democracy, why wouldn't we abide by the decision?

            The issue is Spain seems to be that the central government didn't agree to the referendum, it was started unilaterally by the Catalan local government.

            1. Dan 55 Silver badge

              Re: re. Scotland had its referendum. With few problems

              Actually it's more like:

              - You can't hold an independence referendum, the constitution doesn't allow them so it's illegal.

              - Well change the constitution.

              - No.

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