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EU court must rule on legality of UK's mass surveillance – tribunal

Just in time..

"The judges also refused Privacy International's request that the case be expedited to the European court – which could mean it will be years before a final judgement is made."

Just in time for Terry's Nasty Party to tell Johnny Foreigner to stick the European Court up it's jacksie.

Result for UK Democracy then.

Where's the sarcasm icon when you need it?

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Re: Just in time..

Surely the ECJ will simply turn around in 2019 and say "we no longer have jurisdiction" and punt the case back down to the UK where the receiving court *will* now have the power to make a binding judgement ... on whether the law that will (by then) have changed had been broken (now).

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Re: Just in time..

No. They will have jurisdiction in a case that starts before Brexit, even if Brexit occurs afterwards. And BTW this is a very good example of why leaving the jurisdiction of the ECJ is a very bad idea - it actually protects citizens' rights, whereas the UK Supreme Court merely protects the Establishment.

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Anonymous Coward

"safeguard national security"

In other words: it's important to protect the government, at the expense of the people.

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Re: "safeguard national security"

Isn't that always the case?

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Anonymous Coward

Brexit does not mean brexit it means mass surveillance.

I did not see this one coming especially with all the talk of leaving the ECJ and a "hard" brexit.

All we need now is a right wing nut job with a double barrelled surname that is in part the same as a kids book with a witch and a cat that I used to love to take us into a period of totalitarian rule or lose an election paving the way for brexit to be reversed in another referendum.

Which way is it going to go?

Failing all that Trump could push that big red button but I'm guessing they have removed the wiring just in case.

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Worse than that

If the Tories unilaterally withdraw from the ECJ's jurisdiction in order to evade sanctions, that will effectively give us the status of fugitives. Which isn't exactly going to help our chances of ever getting back into the EU, should life after Brexit prove to be anything less than the milk and honey promised by the Leave camp.

This could go really, horribly wrong, and in ways that won't even begin to be compensated for by laughing at the ways in which resorts will no longer be forbidden by international treaty to treat British tourists. (Not that that won't be an interesting sideshow, though .....)

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I read this as wah wah we can't treat every one as criminals.

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Stop

and of the need for the haystack in order to find the needle

And this, ladies and gentlemen (and either/both/neither/undecided), is why we are a lot LESS safe and why the usual response after terrorist atrocities is that the medieval nutjob "was known to authorities".

Concentrate more on the needle, and less on the haystack.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: and of the need for the haystack in order to find the needle

I too noticed that outrageous abuse of logic by the faceless civil servants.

What they should have told the court is "We at GCHQ and our TLA pals really, really need this humungous haystack, because it is the only justification for our substantial budgets and our extensive, warrant-free, un-overseen powers. Please don't take the hay off us, otherwise we'd have to have a warrant for our snopping, and might even have to catch people".

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Long grass

Kick -> Long grass -> job done!

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Devil

Two small corrections:

"...witnesses shills from the spy agencies 'speak persuasively of developing fragmentary intelligence..."

"...or otherwise, the Grand Star Chamber..."

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The Tom Watson case

Is that the same case that Watson brought together with David Davis, until the latter became a government minister and dropped his part in the case against said government?

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Anonymous Coward

First time

I've heard a court suggest that the end justifies the means. Personally think the end is an illusion but still, interesting and very subjective ruling...

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Obvously, if you're in the needle business, you'd go around collecting haystacks.

Reminds me of something.

Oh, yes.

"If I only had a brain..."

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Doens't matter if the spooks are found guilty of breaking the law, nobody will take the blame, no data will be deleted and no laws will change, as UK Gov/IPT or whoever, will just sit back and ignore the rules until after Brexit and then make it all legal. Look at how many laws the EU have passed and the UK have failed to implement, even though they know it is illegal ?

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The Sooner...

... we get Brexit over and done with the sooner we can stop the EU sticking their noses in with their stupid efforts to protect our Human Rights. JRM for Supreme Overlord.

Don't bother responding or downvoting.

You lost. Get over it.

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Re: The Sooner...

Brexit has nothing to do with this. It is a simple matter of holding everyone to account under the law and referring cases to whatever appropriate courts have jurisdiction at the time of the case.

I don't recall any referendum on the question of abandoning those principles. Was there one? Did I lose?

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Coat

Re: The Sooner...

Brexit has nothing to do with this. It is a simple matter of holding everyone to account under the law and referring cases to whatever appropriate courts have jurisdiction at the time of the case.

Some looneyssenior members of the government have expressed some vexation with 'European' Human Rights and would rather see 'greasy' foreign human rights replaced by British human bill of rights (can't even bring themselves to call them human rights).

I don't recall any referendum on the question of abandoning those principles. Was there one? Did I lose?

We (the public) always lose....wait, the British Goverment have principles?

Principals, maybe, but that'd just be May in pants and boots...."Hello Puss".

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Big Brother

Re: The Sooner...

It's called a "Bill of Rights" because you only get them if you can afford the bill!

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Re: The Sooner...

"Brexit has nothing to do with this."

Not specifically with this case, but the principals are involved in Brexit.

Assuming we leave the jurisdiction of both the ECJ and the ECHR, the final arbiters of our rights will be the UK courts, and the ones who decide which rights we have will be the UK government. Given their record on such matters (both parties), I find it worrying that there will be no external body to oversee this. I expect that our rights will be whittled away, one by one, with noone able to stop it*.

* Yes, I know we can vote in a different government. However, looking at the records of MPs, as soon as they get into power they abandon anything but the vaguest pretence at maintaining rights and start removing them. Even so, a lot of damage can be done in the 5 years between General Elections...

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Fuck national security. Stop spying on me.

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National security is not what it's about - despite the blether.

The government bangs on about security but fails to mention that the security services are only a tiny fraction of the people who will be allowed to access the collected data. I admit it doesn't go as far as the bin collectors, but not far off - what has the NHS got to do with anti-terrorist activities for example?

If the bill said "MI5 operatives only" then we can forget about mass surveillance, they simply don't have the staff - they will be kept busy by the real life threat. If, as the current proposal permits, tens of thousands of civilt servants could potentially have acccess - we are stuffed.

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