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UK not as keen on mobile wallets as mainland Europe and US

Silver badge

So?

We've convenient payment systems many other countries haven't adopted to the same scale, tap to pay, chip and pin are fairly rare in the US.

I don't need to keep my card charged up for it to work either unlike a phone.

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Re: I don't need to keep my card charged up

You also know it is not distributing funds to persons unknown behind your back.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: So?

Completely agree. We've got systems which work and are convenient and relatively secure. If I lived in India I might look on it differently due to their infrastructure and banking system.

To add to that I find it hard to believe anyone who understands the environment would feel that their phone is secure.

So, for me I've got no reason to want to use my phone as some sort of "wallet" on top of which I don't trust it (I'm an Android user but I don't think iOS is much better).

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Silver badge

Re: So?

Compared to what they use in the US, chip and pin is an onerous and time consuming task. Type in a PIN or sign a bit of paper? Nope, just swipe the card and leave....

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Anonymous Coward

Re: So?

And you don't know if your NFC card has been 'scanned' by someone walking alongside you in the street.

Do you keep yours in a NFC/RFID blocking wallet? I'll bet you don't.

If you don't then it is vunerable to being scanned and then cloned. ID Theft at it's most basic.

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Silver badge

Re: So?

I also note that Germany isn't in the list.

We also have tap to pay on our debit cards, but most places still don't take credit cards - debt is still a four letter word. Most people still pay cash or at worst use their debit card.

As the credit card is linked directly to the bank account and automatically debits 100% of the balance at the end of the month, credit cards have little value over debit cards, currently.

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Silver badge

Re: So?

Well, there's sale of goods which aren't as described where you can claim a refund from your credit card, insurance, and fraudulent transactions don't get taken from your bank account.

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Re: So?

Which is just more bloody work that I'd rather avoid having to do when I can use a chip and pin card that doesn't leak my hard-earned cash to anyone with a scanner

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WTF?

Re: So?

I don't normally ask for downvote explanations, but wtf? Am I missing something? In the US, you do just swipe your card, no PIN, no signature, no nothing. This is obviously a more convenient system for paying, but is also obviously insecure.

Point being, just because a country has a more convenient system of paying doesn't mean that every other country will flock to follow it, there are more reasons than convenience for using a payment method.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: So?

"As the credit card is linked directly to the bank account and automatically debits 100% of the balance at the end of the month, credit cards have little value over debit cards, currently."

I don't know about Germany, but in the UK if you do *all* your shopping on a credit card and pay it off each month, you can earn interest on the money still in your bank account, and earn some sort of reward from the credit card too. e.g. if you're going to be taking the kids on a day out anyway, you might as well do it using tesco's "days out" vouchers and get it for free, so long as the places you spend your money don't charge extra for using a credit card or debit card.

And there's better consumer protection when using a credit card for large purchases than with a debit card too...

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Silver badge

Re: So?

@Dan 55

No, no sale of goods refund or insurance on credit cards here.

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Silver badge

Re: So?

Interest rates are pretty much zero at the moment and no loyalty points etc. on credit cards.

The only possible reason to use a credit card in "everyday life" in Germany is if you are travelling on business and waiting for the expense claim to be paid, before you can clear the balance or it is an emergency and you need to give out the money today and can't get to the bank to transfer money from a savings account.

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Silver badge

Re: So?

We also have tap to pay on our debit cards, but most places still don't take credit cards

And Visa's attempt to get in with the hipsters is a complete fucking joke. But we might not have much of a choice as BAFin is pushing phone-based authentication as a prelude to scrapping cash.

Replacing cash with purely electronic currency will fulfil the central bankers' dream of being able to devaluate at will that bit closer.

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Silver badge

Re: So?

I don't know about Germany, but in the UK if you do *all* your shopping on a credit card and pay it off each month, you can earn interest on the money still in your bank account

That's a big if and it competely ignores the fact that credit card companies charge shops fairly hefty fees. I know quite a few shops that will offer a discount if I don't use a credit card.

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Re: So?

I use one of these RFID blocker cards :-

http://www.dmscardbureau.co.uk/shop/rfid-protector-card/

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Bronze badge

Re: So?

"As the credit card is linked directly to the bank account and automatically debits 100% of the balance at the end of the month, credit cards have little value over debit cards, currently."

thats a debit card, a credit is the company lending you money and then you paying interest on the amount if you don't pay the money back within the interest free time

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Silver badge

Re: So?

It's still a credit card even if you always pay it off at the end of the month, they have still lent you money for up to a month.

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Re: So?

"...chip and pin is an onerous and time consuming task..."

Yeah, God forbid you have to spend an extra 10 seconds at a checkout, when you could be using that time to make the world a better place.

Let's be f***ing serious here, coal mining is an onerous and time consuming task. Or mowing someone else's lawn or cleaning their house for minimum wage, or sewing their clothes in a sweatshop in Bangladesh that might collapse at any moment.

Get a grip, mate!

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Re: So?

Sounds more like a charge card to me.

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Re: So?

"credit cards have little value over debit cards"

As you say, zou can set it up to pay 100% of the balance every month and not pay any interest, but paying with CC you get some protection on purchases and some CCs offer bonuses for frequent/high use. From a consumer point of view, better use a CC and pay it off promptly than use a Debit Card.

On the other hand, shops would prefer DC because their bank charges are lower than with CC

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Silver badge

Re: So?

@jmch Not in Germany, in general. All the credit cards I have had are directly linked to the current account and the bank sets it up to automatically take 100% of the balance at the end of the month, no option to change that. If I spend more on the credit card than I have in my current account on the day the money is transferred, it goes against my "Dispokredit" (overdraught) on the current account.

In Germany, again, the normal Visa and Mastercard offer no insurance/protection and no bonuses for frequent / high use.

I even got a card sent to me from the ADAC (German equivalent of the AA), you have to sign a DD mandate equivalent when you accept the card and it books 100% of the amount at the end of the month from your bank. The real benefit was discounts on ADAC services and 1c/Litre on fuel bought with the card.

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Re: So?

"earn interest on the money still in your bank account"

At current interest rates? ROFL.

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Re: So?

"credit cards have little value over debit cards"

My credit card gives me back 0.5% of whatever I spend and other special offers. Because it is credit additional consumer protection legislation applies:

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/section-75-of-the-consumer-credit-act

I would never use a debit card where credit card is a no cost option.

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Silver badge

Re: So?

Yeah, God forbid you have to spend an extra 10 seconds at a checkout, when you could be using that time to make the world a better place.

Let's be f***ing serious here, coal mining is an onerous and time consuming task.

Foam a bit more, you completely missed the point. Compared to swipe and leave [kudos on trimming the quotation to omit that part], chip + pin is onerous, but that doesn't mean that we should move to swipe and leave. There is more to choosing authorization mechanisms for payment cards than convenience.

But no, keep frothing, a bit more hyperbole. Sigh.

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Silver badge

Re: So?

"Do you keep yours in a NFC/RFID blocking wallet? I'll bet you don't.

If you don't then it is vunerable to being scanned and then cloned. ID Theft at it's most basic.

"

Two points.

1) "NFC blocking wallets" don't work unless you earth your wallet. They might mitigate the signal from a regular reader enough to stop it, but a up-powered nfc reader would get through no problem.

2) You cant clone an NFC's secure information store unless you can break public/private key encryption, as that's what the exchange is based on. Cheap door access systems might just use the public element, but payment systems don't (some.might use crap encryption.like that dutch tram company though)

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Silver badge

Re: So?

As the credit card is linked directly to the bank account and automatically debits 100% of the balance at the end of the month, credit cards have little value over debit cards, currently.

To me, the big difference between a credit and debit card is who is liable in the event of fraud or failure to perform. There are more consumer protections when using a credit card than a debit card, and I suspect that both have way more in the way of legal protection than using your phone. I don't have any mobile banking apps on my phone and prefer to keep it that way. But then, like may Reg Commentards, I like to think I'm a bit more aware of the security risks involved and have a lack of faith in bank and phone security.

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Meh

Re: So?

While you can make small purchases with just a card swipe, many vendors still require a signature. I can make a $20 purchase at Safeway with just a swipe, but If I buy more at $50 or $60, then they want a signature. Some, mostly smaller companies, still require signatures even for small purchases. I do wish they would expand requires for PINs as I believe that it is better than my scrawl for verifying transactions. At this point, only my Target card has a PIN.

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Silver badge

Re: So?

"Yeah, God forbid you have to spend an extra 10 seconds at a checkout, when you could be using that time to make the world a better place."

I think he was being ironic. I know, I know, it's a bit hard to believe that a USAian can do irony, but the internet is making the world a smaller place and even they can learn stuff :-)

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Silver badge

Re: So?

@Number6 In the event of fraud, the customer is responsible, unless it can be proven the bank was negligent. That goes for both sorts of card in Germany.

That is the big difference to the UK, the credit card has no bonuses or extra protection over and above a debit card.

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Silver badge

Re: So?

Not surprised paying with plastic isn't very popular with Germans then.

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Re: So?

I just asked my bank for a card without rfid\no contactless feature in it and got one.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Bank interest rates

Bizarrely, right now there are a number of UK current accounts which pay substantially better interest rates (maybe "only" on balances up to a couple of thousand pounds or so, but, still) than almost all savings accounts do at present!

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Facepalm

Trading security for convenience

Making something convenient usually means giving up some security. In this case, we've traded the any form of authentication for the convenience of paying up to £30 10 seconds quicker.

I recall issues where M&S were reading chips/cards of nearby people, rather than the actual customer and there was the POC where someone wandered around a railway station with a bag containing a battery powered card reader and harvested hundreds of pounds in minutes.

This is a dumb concept, on the lines of the automatic door release on cars if an impact was sensed on the bumper. Kick the bumper and you can burgle the car in less than 10 seconds.

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Silver badge

Re: Trading security for convenience

The phone payment is actually slightly more secure than a contactless card as you have to unlock your phone to make the payment. I still find it easier to pull a card out of my wallet than use my phone though.

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Silver badge

Re: Trading security for convenience

My tap to pay cards are perfectly secure - 1 inch cut at one end of the card soon fixed any security problems.

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WTF?

Re: Trading security for convenience

Do not use a mobile to pay for drive through meals, or bridge or other tolls in the UK as use of a hand held, including a wrist device while driving is illegal.

So choices are:

1) Pull out card from wallet and pay in ten seconds or less.

2) Fumble about with an inside pocket, dig phone out of pocket (after 5 hand operations not so easy). Fumble about in front of growing queue to try to unlock the $%^&*()" phone, give up and either use cash or a card anyway.

Perhaps that is one reason I do not put any financial stuff on the phone (there are other reasons).

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Trading security for convenience

"Perhaps that is one reason I do not put any financial stuff on the phone (there are other reasons)."

I've lost 2 phones in the last 15 years or so. I have yet to lose a credit card...

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Silver badge

Re: Trading security for convenience

" there was the POC where someone wandered around a railway station with a bag containing a battery powered card reader and harvested hundreds of pounds in minutes."

The difficult part is actually getting the money out of your merchant account (which you have to have to get the money using card systems in the first place) before the fraud reports shut it down and refund all the cash. Turns out that isn't easy to do , which is why this isn't happening all the time right now...

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Childcatcher

Re: Trading security for convenience

"The difficult part is actually getting the money out of your merchant account (which you have to have to get the money using card systems in the first place) before the fraud reports shut it down and refund all the cash. Turns out that isn't easy to do , which is why this isn't happening all the time right now..."

Absolutely right.

The scare stories are deliberately missing out the inconvenient fact the people aren't losing out - particularly if they use a credit card.

And I'm surprised people are saying there is no protection in the EU for using a credit card, I thought the Consumer Credit Act was an EU Directive.

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Silver badge

Re: Trading security for convenience

The Consumer Credit Act is a 1974 act of Parliament.

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Re: Trading security for convenience

Then again there's the Consumer Credit Act 2006.

Or maybe even

The Consumer Credit (EU Directive) Regulations 2010.

Laws get updated, and some are updated to include EU Directives. Hence my surprise that German law didn't...

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Silver badge

Define "regularly"

I almost never see anyone pay with their phone, though I don't drink coffee and AFAIK Starbucks is probably the most likely place for it.

I never think about it even in places that can do it, because it isn't any faster or easier so why bother? I do it when I get my hair cut, because she's independent and uses Square for transactions. She can swipe cards but has to get out a little dongle to attach to her phone for that. She's set up for Apple Pay transactions without needing that dongle so that's the easiest for us both in this one case, meaning I do one transaction about every six weeks. I wonder if that's "regular" enough to put me in the 17%?

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Silver badge

Re: Define "regularly"

In Germany, cash is still king and older (>30) people still generally frown on credit and debt, with the exception of a mortgage.

Generally I use cash up to around 50 - 100€ and a debit card after that. The credit card is used exclusively for online transactions.

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Silver badge

Re: Define "regularly"

I've stopped carrying my wallet around nowadays...

Paying by phone is somewhat more secure than by contactless card - because I have to unlock the device (either by passcode or biometric).

Do most mobile wallets pass the debit/credit card details to the merchant, or just a one time token. Because if you don't trust the merchant then that might be another driver for mobile wallets.

Personally it just means I only need to carry one thing, after all it's replaced the walkman, books, the camera, the calculator, the diary, the alarm clock, the address book, the Filofax... the library even...

Why not replace a bit of plastic as well?

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Silver badge

Re: Define "regularly"

I was behind a girl in a bar recently trying to pay on her phone. After a while the barmaid said "Technology is wonderful and all that, but could you just use a card?"

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Define "regularly"

@disgustedoftunbridgewells

I was behind a girl in a bar recently trying to remember her 4 digit pin. After a while the barmaid said "Technology is wonderful and all that, but could you just sign instead?"

Technology moves on and in my opinion using a phone/watch or whatever, that uses a one time key, is quick, easy and far more secure than a card, especially a card that has all your details including account number printed on the front!

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Stop

Re: Define "regularly"

Another trap for the stupid.

So now, if you lose your wallet, not only do you have no access to funds, you can't ring anyone to ask for help.

Even if you're on a night out with friends, you can't buy any more beers, and won't be able to borrow your taxi fare* home from them, because they won't have any way to access solid cash either.

(*You won't be able to catch the last bus because your bus ticket is now on your phone, too.)

Maybe soon they'll fit your front door with an electronic lock that you need to swipe with your phone, so you can be locked out all night to boot ?

Obviously most of the sheep enthusiastically embracing this Brave New World have never heard the phrase 'Single Point Of Failure'.

Personally I'll stick with the convenient payment system that is bits-of-paper-with-a-picture-of-the-Queen-on, thanks.

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Bronze badge

Re: Define "regularly"

Personally it just means I only need to carry one thing, after all it's replaced the walkman
Yeah agree on it replacing the walkman - but then I only ever used a walkman-like device (e.g. ipods) on longer trips where I'd also be carrying at least a daypack-type bag anyway.

books
Not really. Sure, sometimes I read a book on a phone, usually when I'm wasting time waiting for something. But when I'm reading books I like, I use a tablet or on long trips an e-book reader (easier on the eyes). And again, if I'm on the length of a trip where I want to bring a book along, I'll be carrying a pack of some sort to store a tablet or ebook reader (or the pockets of some of my jackets with larger pockets) in anyway.
the camera
Again, not really. If I'm going somewhere where I plan to take pictures - holiday for example - I'll bring a discrete camera. Even my compact "happy snap" camera takes better photos than a phone, let alone my SLR. It gives me a camera to take on-the-spur/surprise photos in situations where I wouldn't be carrying a separate camera, but then, previously I just wouldn't have taken a photo. So it hasn't replaced the camera, just allows me to have an emergency camera to hand more often.
the calculator
Absolutely.
the diary
Sometimes, but generally not. I've never kept a personal diary, but do set an alarm reminder on the phone sometimes. For work, I still use a written diary for taking notes in meetings. And email for appointments and so on when I get back to my desk - my memory is good enough to remember to go to a meeting straight from lunch rather than going back to my desk.
the alarm clock
definitely;
the address book
again an address book is not something I've ever felt the need to carry on my person at all times. I don't need so many addresses that I need an address book on hand all the time. Like with the diary, the desktop/laptop computer has replaced the address book, not my phone.

I frequently leave my phone behind and just take a wallet - or when I go swimming I don't take a phone or wallet, just a credit/debit card I can swim with in the zipped-up pocket.

Having the option of using a phone for payment is nice. But definitely not a necessity or even particularly convenient unless I'm in a situation where I've forgotten the wallet - although, since by law you are required to have your drivers license on you when driving I'm more likely to go back and get it than I am if I forget my phone.

This just goes to show that everyone is different. I don't feel wedded to my phone, if I leave it at home when going to work or down to the shops, meh, so what. So being able to do things on my phone no easier than I do currently is neither here nor there.

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Silver badge

Re: Define "regularly"

@Custard Gannet if I am going out boozing, then I leave my wallet and phone at home and only take enough cash for the drinks for the evening.

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Silver badge

Re: Define "regularly"

"since by law you are required to have your drivers license on you when driving"

Are you? - I'm not...

I am required to be able to present it at a police station within 7 days of it being requested - but that's pretty easy.

Obviously for large scale reading etc I prefer an e-ink display, or even (gasp) dead trees... but when I'm out and about, I can easily have a book shelf with me in case I end up waiting for something...

For serious photography I use a DSLR, but for snaps (the majority of my photography is recording family moments) - the phone camera is actually pretty good.

But the point is that the phone does sufficient things that it's useful enough for me to be carrying anyway. At that point the fact that it can be used as a card (with no more time at the till, I open up the wallet and authenticate whilst my stuff is being scanned, and present it as I would a card, takes half a second) means that there is yet another thing I don't need to carry most of the time.

If I am going shopping shopping then I'll grab the wallet - but that's mostly to be allowed to spend over the £30 limit. It's also a good way to limit expenditure, because I can't buy 'big' things without deliberately going out to do so...

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