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WannaCrypt NHS victim Lanarkshire infected by malware again

Anonymous Coward

Underfunded or underskilled?

Or out sourced?

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Re: Underfunded or underskilled?

Possibly all three?

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Re: Underfunded or underskilled?

Probably all three, plus you can add to that, undermanaged.

I suspect in terms of quality as hospital managers seem to outnumber doctors.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Underfunded or underskilled?

Utter childish nonsense, they lost several managers especially in their IT area last year, not sure why the press isn't investigating that to be honest as I bet it's full of juicy gossip.

Half a department management team doesn't leave unless there's panic setting in about something.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Underfunded or underskilled?

Lost key staff last year (police involvement allegedly)

Outsource part of the key infrastructure to companies that we all know and love.

Run their own e-mail service, not the national NHSMail solution

Lots of other guff that sounds like a poorly run service, especially when you consider they've had months to get this sorted and clearly haven't.

Anyone else betting there's a lot of XP kicking about? Seems odd that this one would be affected when other scottish trusts aren't.

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Re: Underfunded or underskilled?

"they lost several managers especially in their IT area last year"

So undermanaged applies.

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@Chris G

Undermanaged is not a term I'd associate with the NHS.

It's must be a strong candidate for the world's prime example of this management style.

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Re: @Chris G

It's must be a strong candidate for the world's prime example of this management style.

Or this one: https://www.slideshare.net/apanitsch/the-management-rowing-race.

I know it's getting on a bit but "many a true word is said in jest".

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"Don't worry, this time we have a backup!"

- Pops CDRW in drive.

- Contains "backup.lnk" and nothing else.

"...aaand the backup is my brother, who said he'd hire me to work at his plumbing company. Whelp, see ya."

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Anonymous Coward

"- Contains "backup.lnk" and nothing else."

So it's all good then?

:-)

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404
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It's 2KB*, of course it's all there!

*Caps means it's big... (bwaahaha)

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Unhappy

"Patient support" nice piece of social engineering.

So probably a good idea to set a policy of disabling all programming languages that MS Office can run?

As for what Lanarkshire have gotten, who knows?

Hitting the phone and rostering systems sounds pretty esoteric

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Re: "Patient support" nice piece of social engineering.

As for what Lanarkshire have gotten, who knows?

Probably a Petya variant, which spreads in more-or-less the same way.

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Re: "Patient support" nice piece of social engineering.

"Hitting the phone and rostering systems sounds pretty esoteric"

Not really and most probably they both are managed by, or depend upon databases in, Windows machines.

Real question is what had (not) been done since WanaCry exposed unpatched machines and flat/open internal networks allowing havoc to ensue. I suspect that any Word macros uses that were not disabled by group policy are a symptom of the first ailment...

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Flame

Utter Bastards

Just what sort of total fucking scum bastards target a hospital? I can only hope that they die slowly, horribly and just for good measure, painfully.

And where the fuck are the people at GHCQ when we need them? They seem perfectly capable of tracking everyone of us, so why can't they seem to track down the pond life bottom feeding twats that do this type of thing?

Please don't tell me that people shouldn't open this type of what I assume was an attachment to an email. If I worked as a doctor, nurse or in patient records, for example, I can't put my hand on my heart and say that I would not open an attachment called "patient report". Can anyone?

Ok. Rant over.

Cheers… Ishy

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Re: Utter Bastards

Actually, if it were targetted at hospitals, I'd almost think that was better. Some grievance against the medical community in the mind of an inadequate kiddie, lashes out in revenge.

But in fact it's probably totally indiscriminate, fire off at random in the mall, see what happens just for kicks kind of mentality. Oh, I hit a hospital, lol.

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Re: Utter Bastards

If the payload is named patientreport.docm or patientreport.doc.exe then it is clearly targeted at medical facilities.

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Re: Utter Bastards

> And where the fuck are the people at GHCQ when we need them?

Er, 'bout that. Maybe you don't want to look at where the Wannacry miscreants stole that exploit from. I'm sure GCHQ would love to give them a stern talking to, just as soon as they finish handing over all the security researchers who have been assisting in other investigations.

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Re: Utter Bastards

Oh yes. I must have skipped the last paragraph!

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Re: Utter Bastards

@Adam1

As I understand it wannacry was stolen from the NSA. Though I may be wrong. And I am most certainly not suggesting that GHCQ are a set of goody two shoes.I should imagine that they are as bad as the NSA but haven't been caught out yet.

Cheers… Ishy

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Utter Bastards

>Please don't tell me that people shouldn't open this type of what I assume was an attachment to an email.

You should open whatever arrives in your inbox within a corporate environment without a care - any IT bod or system which relies on you to do otherwise is not fit for purpose.

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M7S
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Black Helicopters

"Who you gonna call?"

Oh, bail conditions, sorry.

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Anonymous Coward

Shhhh!

Or someone will thing it's a good idea charging him of this too to hide some well paid executive fault...

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Failing to do so.

NHS is consistently failing to address the cyber security issue the hospitals face. It should be the first on their priority list.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Failing to do so.

They will be well aware of the issues but a combination of legacy kit that can't just be upgraded (Scanners running XP, and likely connected PCs also requiring XP), no resourced to mitigate through isolation and a belligerent staff who won't stoop to carrying out awareness training, will all add up to an ongoing risk form repeated attacks.

Plus public sector IT has been an easy target for cuts for years. It was down to the bone years ago and they've still gone further. You can't reconfigure massive networks at the drop of a hat with two apprentices and a co-opted janitor. Even when the politicians wave their mighty soundbite wands.

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Anonymous Coward

"Plus public sector IT has been an easy target for cuts for years"

Still, I would like to see how the budget was spent...

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Re: Failing to do so.

"legacy kit that can't just be upgraded"

I usually point out the the "legacy" system is the one that's earning the money and therefore can't, as you point out, be easily upgraded. But if indeed this was spread by Word attachments on email there is every reason to treat Word as legacy which can and should be replaced.

And, to forestall those who witter about "training to use this [allegedly] really difficult" LibreOffice then the training costs* for such a transition should be set against the costs of the obviously needed training for sanitary handling of email attachments.

*Really? It's not exactly difficult. It's a long time since I used Word but I don't remember it being that hard to flip between one and the other; they seemed pretty similar. Maybe the difference between the ribbon and the classic interfaces made LibreOffice a harder transition until the recent update which provided an optional ribbon. And in any case, those using the ribbonised version of MS Office must have either swallowed the training costs when that was introduced or let staff struggle untrained when they had the much less disruptive alternative of OO or LO.

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Re: "Plus public sector IT has been an easy target for cuts for years"

Quote:

"Still, I would like to see how the budget was spent..."

Item 1. Office refurbishment for the management including new desks/chair/blinds and new paint(Ok it had only been done 2 yrs previously but it was starting to look worn out)

Item 2. New PCs for the management, because they were starting to look worn out (the arrow on the return key was faded)

Item 3. Training the management to use the new PCs

Item 4. Getting several contractors to re-install windows after 1 of the managers gets a virus

Item 5. Several surveys of NHS trusts to find out how they coped with viruses(hotel stays and full expenses included... strange how the surveys were during the summer and in Cornwall/West Wales)

Item 6. Drawing up a report for the senior NHS manglement recommending that the NHS increases the number of in-house IT staff, making a disaster backup plan and training all staff to use the NHS computer systems properly

Item 7. Buying a shredder and inserting said report into it as thats cheaper and quicker than doing item 6.

There... I think that just about covers it

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Re: "Plus public sector IT has been an easy target for cuts for years"

strange how the surveys were during the summer and in Cornwall/West Wales

Shirley someone who decamps to Cornwall/West Wales for weather based treats/gravy deserves more sympathy than opprobrium?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Failing to do so.

Ask my trust in an FOI how much they spend on cyber security and the figure will be around 1 million.

In reality it's me and half my time is devoted to other things thanks to IT staff leaving and not being replaced.

Cyber security is no doubt on the priority list but that doesn't mean it gets backing from management (essential!) or funds (vital!)

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Failing to do so.

"Cyber security is no doubt on the priority list but that doesn't mean it gets backing from management (essential!) or funds (vital!)"

So this is your list , not their list . See , what youre thinking of is a "wish list", aka "Pipe Dream" thats where your security is.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: "Plus public sector IT has been an easy target for cuts for years"

it was spent badly, because IT is not it's only area graced with bad management.

pay peanuts, get monkeys who'll spend their allotted amount peanuts poorly.

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"A couple of hours later on Saturday morning, it posted an update requesting that people avoid visiting emergency departments unless absolutely necessary."

No chat and free tea in Lanarkshire then ?

What exactly do people go to emergency departments for if not emergencies ? And shouldn't they be addressing that problem all the time rather than just when the IT systems are broken ?

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Re What exactly do people go to emergency departments for if not emergencies ?

Its because they can't get to see doctors at primary care. In the Brit NHS access to primary care / GPs is basically rationed by bureaucracy. In order to see a doctor you have to jump through complicated administrative processes that typically require the patient to be intelligent, well enough to be able to handle the processes and have plenty of spare time.

The reason for this, of course is that Brit health care is free at point of delivery and theoretically unrationed, so the demand is almost unlimited. Supply, on the other hand, is very limited. Any kind of overt rationing is politically unacceptable*. The result is rationing by bureaucracy, since no-one can think of anything better.

Not that anyone has chosen rationing by bureaucracy, its just all that anyone can think of to control the demand. The alternative might be doctors booked up for months ahead, which is equally ridiculous.

*Its politically unacceptable, because Labour (=vaguely left) governments have a big soundbite of 'the evil tories are trying to destroy your NHS', so daren't be seen introducing demand management themselves, whilst Conservative (Tory=vaguely right) governments are desperately trying to avoid looking like evil tories destroying the NHS, so won't do anything either.

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Re: Re What exactly do people go to emergency departments for if not emergencies ?

That would be the English NHS (and Wales presumably). The Scottish NHS is run differently and I can see a GP within 24 hours if I need to.

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Re: Re What exactly do people go to emergency departments for if not emergencies ?

Not in Clydebank I can't.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Re What exactly do people go to emergency departments for if not emergencies ?

I'm in England and my GP practice still runs open surgery sessions in the mornings so I can turn up and will get to see a GP (possibly having to wait a while). They used to do this for all their surgery sessions but a few years back changed the afternoon/evening to "pre-booking" - I suspect this was a result of the NHS patient surveys that were around at the time which asked people who'd visited GPs to report on how easy it had been to book there appointment and an answer of "I didn't have to book as I just needed to turn up and ask to see a GP" didn't fit into the ratings scheme.

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Re: Re What exactly do people go to emergency departments for if not emergencies ?

I'm glad for you, but that's not because you aren't in England and Wales,it's because you are lucky.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Re What exactly do people go to emergency departments for if not emergencies ?

"Not in Clydebank I can't."

Baws. You have the RAH and QEUH. Honestly, folk in Clydebank seem to think they are entitled to their own A&E for some strange reason. I live in Clydebank, so I'm aware of what's going on. And no, you can't get one at the Golden Jubilee as it's (a) not fit for that kind of scenario and (b) doesn't belong to the local health board.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Re What exactly do people go to emergency departments for if not emergencies ?

NHSScotland is different.

You can walk into a hospital ED (not A&E btw) or minor injury unit any time you want and get treatment if they deem it necessary. THEY being the clinicians not management nor the government who have nothing to do with it.

The problem is the number of drunks, druggies, unsocial idiots who keep emergency services busy, not management.

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Re: Re What exactly do people go to emergency departments for if not emergencies ?

I replied to a post which stated "The Scottish NHS is run differently and I can see a GP within 24 hours if I need to."

Where did I mention A&E, or the post that I responded to? Oh it didn't, ergo yer a bawbag

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Anonymous Coward

Worrying

Our local health centre is using FB and Twitter to tell people to stay away. No appointments, no results, no repeat prescription. Nothing.

Fingers crossed that some systems comes back up today.

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Anonymous Coward

My hospital has two Philips CT scanners running XP. We've got in touch with Philips and they're forbidding us from applying any windows update (Even the WannaCry patch).

They need to be networked because you need to get the images to other systems. But if we patch they loose their warrenty and CE marking since we're acting against the manufacturer. So... that sucks.

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Anonymous Coward

So you sue Philips for knowingly endangering people's lives.

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So a basic firewall infront to proxy connections is not possible?

Patching all XP desktops is not possible?

Filtering in bound mail is not possible?

Mandating scans of USB devices is not possible?

You hilight a cultural issue....management need a reality check to fix the culture.

Oh and a national call to boycott Philips for hurting our NHS would soon get some action, that doesn't involve the phrase "you need to buy a new one".

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No you put a basic firewall in front and call for a national boycott...do people not understand the buying power of the NHS....it's one of the largest purchasers of this kit in the world...smaller peivate hospitals don't stand for this so why does the NHS?

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Anonymous Coward

"...smaller private hospitals don't stand for this so why does the NHS?..."

Maybe because private hospitals are already private and aren't being run (down) by a Government who want to privatise the NHS and who have their snouts in the trough of private medicine?

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Anonymous Coward

If they are still under warranty I'd ask Philips to replace them because they are obviously defective. I'd also add a letter stating that any new networked device tender will include security high in the list - especially because of GDPR.

Then, depending on how they need to be networked, I'd design a way to isolate those XP machines and use a secure "proxy" to transfer the images.

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Anonymous Coward

Not an ideal solution but have a cdr burner, burn the images and move to a machine on the network with auto run disabled. They should be safe disconnected entirely and you're not risking infection with USB sticks.

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"But if we patch they loose their warrenty and CE marking since we're acting against the manufacturer."

Put them on the spot and ask them* if their warranty covers not only malware damage to the unpatched systems themselves but also consequent damage to other systems for malware getting in through unpatched XP and consequent harm to patients.

*Via your legal dept. of course. Potentially being on the hook for large damages is apt to concentrate minds.

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