back to article UK.gov wants quick Brexit deal with EU over private data protections

The UK government has said it wants an early agreement on a post-Brexit data-sharing deal with the European Union, as well as a continued seat at the table for Blighty's data protection watchdog. In the latest of its position papers for how the UK will extricate itself from decades of EU policy, the government set out what it …

Page:

  1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

    This broke the bulshitometer by driving it off the scale

    The Tory-run government argued that the UK “starts from an unprecedented point of alignment with the EU”

    No. It does not. UK law has been successfully challenged at the ECJ as inadequate more than once. By Davis himself on one occasion.

    On top of that the ultimate arbiter for what can and cannot be done with Eu citizen's and businesses data is the ECJ.

    I do not see how you can align both of these to the Tory BrExit platform.

    1. Nick Kew

      Re: This broke the bulshitometer by driving it off the scale

      EU response: You can stay with us on data protection so long as you commit to accepting the ECJ's supremacy on matters of data protection. And you can appoint a non-voting representative to the panel.

      Any more concessions than that would seem very odd, and one would have to question what price had been paid behind the scenes.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: This broke the bulshitometer by driving it off the scale

        This is of course an exception and in all other matters dealing with Europe, Britain will be able to trade freely while completely ignoring any european rules and regulations

        1. Roland6 Silver badge

          Re: This broke the bulshitometer by driving it off the scale

          "This is of course an exception" Just like all the other exceptions we've negotiated - Westminster is sovereign; Brexit is a success! :)

          Naturally, dear Brexiteers, you should just listen to T.Mays words and not trouble yourself with reading the actual agreement. [Aside: I wonder if the Brexit agreement will be a blank sheet of paper just like the Treaty of Rome...]

  2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    IT Angle

    Remeber this is Brexit from the Tory Government perspective.

    "told The Reg that the proposals amounted to “delusional fantasy” is Brexit from everyone else' s perspective.

    It looks like Brexit (according to the UK govt) will be a bit like the Y2K work done in the late 90's.

    Expensive, time consuming and at the end you've made no obvious benefit IOW you've just retained what you already have.

    With 2 differences.

    1) Only the UK "has" to do it, despite the referendum being advisory

    2) It's a negotiation. The EU may have tired of dealing with the data fetishists of the Home Office and their everyone-is-a-criminal-lets-start-a-file-now PoV.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The way I understand it this is the problem.

    We want to agree things and so do the EU.

    However for us to agree things the EU needs to know that we'll follow through with our promises. Currently that's handled by the ECJ but when we leave it won't, therefore the only proof the EU has that we are keeping to our end of all the agreements is our word.

    Why would you give a foreign country that's not legally connected to you access to determine data protection laws (or any other) that effect your group of countries when they could do what they please and are not bound by those laws themselves?

    Someone in government needs to pull their head out of their arse and start sorting this out.

    1. maxfm

      They need us more than we need them

      Sorry - utter rubbish. European companies are beating down the door to their governments DEMANDING they make a deal with us. When it comes to a crunch, we will get what we want - otherwise, we will pull the plug. They need us more than we need them, don't forget we are the most attractive country in europe for tech. People like you, putting the country down, refusing to support democracy - you should be ashamed.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: They need us more than we need them

        Sorry - utter rubbish. European companies are beating down the door to their governments DEMANDING they make a deal with us.

        amanfrommars, is that you?

      2. Adair Silver badge

        Re: They need us more than we need them

        maxfm, I'm sure you are trolling because you sound exactly like a blustering jingoistic xenophobic Colonel Blimp. I think it's the 'They need us more than we need them' that really gives it away. Such a quixotic backward looking view can only come from someone who is completely delusional, living in some invented reality based on the myths of an imperial past (now quite long past), or by someone with a delicious sense of the ironic and the absurd. I do hope it is the latter.

        1. Not also known as SC

          Re: They need us more than we need them

          "maxfm, I'm sure you are trolling because you sound exactly like a blustering jingoistic xenophobic Colonel Blimp"

          Problem is so many people seem to hold these sorts of view it's getting harder to tell the joke posts from the real ones.

        2. Adair Silver badge

          Re: They need us more than we need them

          Evidently it is not the latter, i.e. 'a delicious sense of the ironic and the absurd'. How disappointing.

          And, for anyone who hasn't encountered David Low's 'Colonel Blimp', I think the esteemed Wikipedia offers a decent insight:

          'Blimp issues proclamations from the Turkish bath, wrapped in his towel and brandishing some mundane weapon to emphasize his passion on some issue of current affairs. Red faced with rage and emotion, his pronouncements are often confused. Blimp's phrasing often includes direct contradiction, as though upon starting the sentence he did not know how the sentence was to end. His initial words were always a part of an emotional catchphrase. For instance: "Gad, Sir! Mr Lansbury is right. The League of Nations should insist on peace — except of course in the case of war.", or: "Gad, Sir! Lord Bunk is right. The government is marching over the edge of an abyss, and the nation must march solidly behind them." Blimp is usually depicted speaking to a cartoon version of David Low, the cartoon's creator, and Blimp's comments are not infrequently directed at the opinions of Lord Beaverbrook, the owner of the newspaper in which the cartoon appeared.[citation needed]

          Blimp was a satire on the reactionary opinions of the British establishment of the 1930s and 1940s. The cartoon was intended to criticize attitudes of isolationism, impatience with the concerns of common people, and a lack of enthusiasm for democracy. These were attitudes which Low, a New Zealander, considered as being common in British politics. Although Low described his character Blimp as "a symbol of stupidity", he lessened the insult to the British ruling class by adding that "stupid people are quite nice".'

          I find, "Gad, Sir! Lord Bunk is right. The government is marching over the edge of an abyss, and the nation must march solidly behind them." particularly apropos. It seems that some things never change.

      3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: They need us more than we need them

        "refusing to support democracy"

        Bearing in mind that this was only an advisory referendum with a very small percentage majority and taking into account the roaring success the current government achieved in the recent election how sure are you that a referendum now would confirm the original?

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: They need us more than we need them

          @ Doctor Syntax

          "Bearing in mind that this was only an advisory referendum with a very small percentage majority and taking into account the roaring success the current government achieved in the recent election how sure are you that a referendum now would confirm the original?"

          Bearing in mind the government made it absolutely clear this referendum was not advisory and would be carried out is again another exposing of the remain campaign and how severely rigged the vote was. Quite a heroic victory for leave considering what we all had to contend with (including open and direct threats from the gov).

          But your idea of democracy is interesting. This is the first, repeat first, repeat first vote we have had on our membership of the EU which we were forced into. And even Stockholm syndrome and direct threats wasnt enough to get the desired result. So you propose we should vote again? We have yet to leave and you want to vote again? You lost the vote so want to vote again? You dont like the result so want to vote again. You lost by the rules created by the remain campaign and want to vote again.

          If we apply this idea of democracy then we would be voting a change of government every day before the elected one could get into power because it was the 'wrong' result. I cant say I know of any democracies that use that kind of method. Maybe countries that call themselves Democratic Peoples Republic etc.

          1. maxfm

            Re: They need us more than we need them

            Well said codejunky. The way that the self appointed elites seem to think their opinions are somehow worth more than everyone elses shows exactly why Brexit will be a great thing. A bloodless revolution which will return power to those who it should belong to, us the people.

            businesses have been getting very rich of immigrant labour while our own indigenous population has suffered in silence for too long - but no longer. We want our jobs back, and we want proper services and proper housing. Enough giving everything to foreigners who are only here to take.

            1. John Smith 19 Gold badge

              "We want our jobs back, and we want proper services and proper housing. "

              I call troll.

              No one without a brain disease can keep up that tone and actually believe it.

            2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

              Re: They need us more than we need them

              "A bloodless revolution which will return power to those who it should belong to, us the people."

              One outcome is May getting our as far as possible from the ECJ. This removes a layer of protection for the people. Don't be fooled into thinking you're being empowered. You're not.

              It's a good default assumption that any politician who seeks to remove a layer of legal supervision of their activities has something to hide.

            3. Just Enough

              Re: They need us more than we need them

              "A bloodless revolution which will return power to those who it should belong to, us the people."

              Bwah, Ha, Ha, Ha! You think that giving May and her cronies free rein and ultimate power will give power back to the people! Ha, Ha, Ha!

              "businesses have been getting very rich of immigrant labour"

              Ho, Ho, Ho! You think that the Tory Government will do anything to stop businesses getting very rich at the expense of anything! He, He, He!

              Oh my aching sides are splitting. Are you a comedian or just utterly clueless?

              "while our own indigenous population has suffered in silence for too long - but no longer. We want our jobs back""

              Ah.... forget it. You're not joking, you're just one of those people.

          2. Jess

            Re: the government made it absolutely clear this referendum was not advisory

            In the same section of the manifesto that made it clear the result would be honoured, there was a big commitment to the single market.

            So it is fine to drop one part but not the other is it?

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: the government made it absolutely clear this referendum was not advisory

              @ Jess

              "In the same section of the manifesto that made it clear the result would be honoured, there was a big commitment to the single market.

              So it is fine to drop one part but not the other is it?"

              Except the EU have already said no to that. If we drop out of the EU then the EU cuts us off. Not shocking nor surprising and since remainers like to point out Cameron lied to us about committing to the result but you seemed shocked he lied to you.

              1. Roland6 Silver badge

                Re: the government made it absolutely clear this referendum was not advisory

                Except the EU have already said no to that.

                The EU have said no to lots of things, including much of what David Davis has said the UK wants; yet he shows no sign of accepting their word...

                There is only one certainty: we will only know what the Brexit deal really is, when the fat lady sings, as until then everything is open to negotiation; including points that many may perceive as having previously been agreed...

                Ho hum! T.May certainly got one thing right: "Brexit means Brexit" namely Brexit can't be defined before it has been finally agreed (between the EU and UK) as to what Brexit means.

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: the government made it absolutely clear this referendum was not advisory

                  @ Roland6

                  "The EU have said no to lots of things, including much of what David Davis has said the UK wants; yet he shows no sign of accepting their word"

                  Yet again you dont seem to follow. The vote was leave, that is to leave. The EU cant exactly stop us from leaving the EU. The EU can keep saying no, we are leaving regardless of their word. And if they are so incompetent that they cannot negotiate an exit of a member then it wont look good for their negotiating ability will it?

                  "Brexit can't be defined before it has been finally agreed"

                  I would agree with you on that. Except it was a vote to leave the EU so we at least have a baseline to hold the gov to.

                  1. H in The Hague

                    Re: the government made it absolutely clear this referendum was not advisory

                    "Except it was a vote to leave the EU so we at least have a baseline to hold the gov to."

                    Were the voters aware that also meant leaving the single market and the customs union - making international trade more difficult, bureaucratic and expensive? Dropping out of Euratom, Europol, etc., etc.? The question on the ballot paper was misleadingly simplistic.

                    1. codejunky Silver badge

                      Re: the government made it absolutely clear this referendum was not advisory

                      @ H in The Hague

                      "Were the voters aware that also meant leaving the single market and the customs union"

                      Were remain voters aware that the claims of economic doom were nothing like and the 'affects' were actually the very things the BoE and gov have been trying to do since 2008? Were the remain voters aware of what the EU will become (they are still not sure yet) as it cannot survive in its current form? Or that the direct threat made by George Osborne (punishment budget) to the country was just a threat of economic devastation and nothing to do with the practicalities of leaving?

                      The question was simplistic but it was a heavily rigged vote with the 'right' answer which would be a permanent expression of voters opinion and the other answer. But so far this is the nearest to honest choice offered to people and the result was shockingly to leave even under direct threat and extreme propaganda.

      4. MMR

        Re: They need us more than we need them

        "They need us more than we need them, don't forget we are the most attractive country in europe for tech."

        Whaa?

        Where were you last year when HSBC laid off 500+ IT personel in Sheffield and decided to move most of it to Europe and the rest to India?

        Where were you when BBC announced a deal with Accenture who will outsource a lot of their IT to Europe?

      5. Voland's right hand Silver badge

        Re: They need us more than we need them

        They need us more than we need them,

        Show me one Eu company that fits that description. I have yet to see one.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: They need us more than we need them

          They need us more than we need them,

          Show me one Eu company that fits that description. I have yet to see one.

          How about Airbus and Rolls-Royce Holdings (the aircraft engine manufacturer, not the BMW subsidiary)?

          1. Lars Silver badge
            Happy

            Re: They need us more than we need them

            "How about Airbus and Rolls-Royce".

            R-R is indeed a company to be proud of but Airbus is a rather different animal to what I think you believe.

            Quoting the Wikipedia (something I would warmly recommend you to use too):

            "Airbus is an European multinational corporation........

            ...The company's main civil aeroplane business is based in Blagnac, France, a suburb of Toulouse, with production and manufacturing facilities mainly in France, Germany, Spain, China, United Kingdom and the United States. Final assembly production is based at Toulouse, France; Hamburg, Germany; Seville, Spain; Tianjin, China, and Mobile, United States."

            "Owner as of September 2016

            France – 11.1%

            Germany – 11.1%

            Spain – 4.2%

            And the rest public (free float)".

            The guys producing wings in the UK (Wales?) are worried and I would guess some Americans are hoping for the best as Airbus uses US made engines too.

          2. Hans 1

            Re: They need us more than we need them

            Airbus -> quite miffed by GCHQ passing on sales info to Boeing, via NSA

            Rolls-Royce Holdings - Airbus is the only one involved with them, Pratt & Whitney and GE have good engines too ...

          3. Voland's right hand Silver badge

            Re: They need us more than we need them

            How about Airbus and Rolls-Royce Holdings

            1. Rolls Royce primary "Eu relationship" is being one of the multiple suppliers for airbus. There other main "sole" supplier is GE. There are also a couple of models where P&W does the engines. However, none of them does the majority today. That is produced by a set of incestuous joint ventures between all major players and some external ones.

            The actual engine choice is done by the airline when placing the order. While some Eu airlines which have chosen Rolls Royce exclusively (very few) will be unhappy about it, it is up to them. Airbus does not care. If anything it may end up happier as it has to integrate one engine LESS and P&W and GE will very happily step in to fill the dual supply hole left by Rolls Royce leaving. There is definitely no issue here as far as Airbus is concerned and the other players will only enjoy RR leaving. Airlines will be annoyed, but if P&W offers them a sweetie their annoyance will be very short lived.

            2. Airbus itself and its factories in South-West England which if memory serves me right produce mostly wings nowdays. While painful in the short term, there will be head over heals competition by all Eu governments to house an alternative factory site in the long term. In fact, Airbus may end up in an overall financial win from relocating this manufacturing due to indirect subsidies and logistical improvements. For example, if it moves the manufacturing to France, it no longer needs to drag them across half of a continent in a Beluga for assembly, etc.

      6. nsld
        Paris Hilton

        Re: They need us more than we need them

        "Sorry - utter rubbish. European companies are beating down the door to their governments DEMANDING they make a deal with us. "

        Yet strangely as I sit in Dublin Airport after another day consulting with a SaaS provider the general consensus is that the UK won't get an adequacy decision and any serious business is already a long way down the road of moving its data into an EU 27 country.

        It will be far easier to store UK data in the EU and watch as the UK government does nothing than it would be to keep it in the UK and find you can't do business when the ECJ does a Schrems and the UK as a third country finds itself out on its arse in a data processing wilderness.

        Enjoy your unicorn riding Maxfm.......

      7. arctic_haze

        Re: They need us more than we need them

        Fog in Channel - Continent Cut Off

        1. Nick Kew
          FAIL

          Re: They need us more than we need them

          Yep. Of course.

          5% of their trade is with us; 50% of our trade is with them (in ballpark terms). And we're more dependent on trade than most, except perhaps the Dutch. Even the big manufacturing nations - like Germany and Italy - have only a tiny fraction of what we have at stake.

      8. Yes Me Silver badge

        Re: They need us more than we need them

        Which plug, exactly, is it that we will pull?

        (Don't bother, I don't seriously expect an answer, because the phrase is meaningless - as the losing party in a 27:1 negotiation, there is no threat we can make that will even raise an eyebrow across the table.)

        Oh, and as for democracy - I'm all for it! That's what the European Parliament is all about, unlike the UK Parliament which rides roughshod over little details like the Brexiteer's lies and fantasies, and which slavishly votes along party lines even when common sense and facts suggest otherwise.

      9. Snorlax Silver badge
        WTF?

        Re: They need us more than we need them

        @maxfm:"European companies are beating down the door to their governments DEMANDING they make a deal with us."

        No they're not.

        Provide examples please?

      10. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: They need us more than we need them

        They need us more than we need them, don't forget we are the most attractive country in europe for tech.

        When did that happen? I must have blinked. It certainly wasn't that case in the 1990's as Ireland was the preferred place to locate - in part because even then people were uncertain about the UK's dithering over the EU - The UK media, Farage et al have been spouting anti-EU stories for decades. Suspect "the EU" was perceived to be a more politically correct way of perpetuating the myth of the 'natural superiority' of the English over those Continental's; especially the Germans and French.

      11. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        Unhappy

        "European companies are beating down the door..DEMANDING they make a deal with us. "

        And you know this how?

    2. Yes Me Silver badge
      Coffee/keyboard

      Someone in government needs to...

      "Someone in government needs to pull their head out of their arse and start sorting this out."

      You must know that the shambles known as the British 'government' is totally incapable of either of those things. Their position is totally illogical, and in any case the EU has repeatedly made it clear that any deals for after Brexit are not open for discussion until the mechanics of Brexit, including paying our bill, have been settled. In fact, if you take the trouble to read Article 50, it's clear: the Article 50 talks continue until the mechanics of withdrawal are settled, and then... they stop. Everything else is left for future diplomatic negotiations between the EU and the ex-member. It seems that the British 'cabinet' has utterly failed to grasp this simple (and disastrous) fact. We must all hope that Parliament throws them out of office next month. It's the only hope left.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    ... for the Information Commissioner’s Office to have an “ongoing role ... in EU regulatory fora”

    Certainly. I hear that the attrium of the EU privacy commission could do with some potted plants. Woild that role for the post-brexit UK representative in the EU regulatory fora fit the bill?

  5. Pen-y-gors

    It's not complicated...

    As with so many other areas of the Brexit negotiations, it's easy. No 'negotiation' is needed. The UK accepts existing all EU regulations, and writes them into UK law, unchanged, and agrees to incorporate any new EU regulations into UK law, without delay. Obviously, as it won't be a member of the EU, the UK has no role or influence in drafting those regulations. If there is a dispute about whether the UK has done the job correctly, the ECJ (without any UK judge) will rule.

    Do that, and we can happily keep transferring data and doing business with the EU. Why do people find this hard to see?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: It's not complicated...

      The best outcome here is for as little as possible to change. If we want to carry on trading with them, we'll have to do what they say. And have no influence over their decisions any more. So instead of 'Taking back control' we've basically pissed away any degree of control we had. What a total waste of time and effort. As for "having our cake and eating it"....pfff, Tory fantasy. The Europeans wont let us. We need them, they don't need us, and they know it.

      1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        Trollface

        "So instead of 'Taking back control' we've..pissed away any degree of control we had. "

        Well that might be how any unbiased observer who wasn't a rabid Brexiteer, or wanted to smoke the UKippers, or stop the Conservative party from imploding would see it. But OTOH...

        But..

        But...

        No actually that is pretty much what the UK referendum has done for the UK. The 20% fall in the £ against the $ and May deciding to stomp Labour and massively increase her majority (but didn't) were just icing on the fat cakefull of s**t.

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: It's not complicated...

      "Obviously, as it won't be a member of the EU, the UK has no role or influence in drafting those regulations. If there is a dispute about whether the UK has done the job correctly, the ECJ (without any UK judge) will rule."

      And, of course, we'll have "taken back control" as now we're just doing it voluntarily out of the goodness of our hearts. The obvious solution all along.

      Warning: this most might contain traces of sarcasm and irony. Best avoid if you have an allergy.

    3. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: It's not complicated...

      "The UK accepts all existing and future EU regulations, and writes them into UK law, unchanged, and agrees to incorporate any new EU regulations into UK law, without delay. Obviously, as it won't be a member of the EU, the UK has no role or influence in drafting those regulations."

      However, it does provide two fig leaves to the Brexiteers: one of 'sovereignty' and the second the UK are no longer members...

  6. oxfordmale78

    The only way the UK can get a quick deal with the EU about private data protection, is by accepting all existing EU regulations and oversight by the ECJ. Of course more bespoke deals are possible, but they will take longer to negotiate than the year left for Brexit negotiations.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Hard to see how a more bespoke deal is possible.

      It's hard to see the ECJ saying: Dear German bank you can store data on your customers in the EU and be subject to all sorts of strict data protection rules - or store it in the UK with much looser rules and we will be perfectly OK with that.

      It's hard to see why anyone would agree to the UK having looser health / safety / materials etc standards but being allowed equal access

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    That's a new definition of "alignment" then

    The Tory-run government argued that the UK “starts from an unprecedented point of alignment with the EU”, and as such that it should seek a deal that goes beyond existing measures the EU has with non-EU nations.

    Oh really? So the rather long outstanding issues with the retention of personal information and biometrics by law enforcement don't count then?

    Nice try, though, but Home Office needs to significantly turn down the police state dial before that statement approaches anything near reality, and especially with May as PM I can't see that happen - that's where she came from.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: That's a new definition of "alignment" then

      "especially with May as PM I can't see that happen"

      The slight benefit here is that Davis is Brexit Sec. I can't imagine them seeing eye-to-eye over this.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Mushroom

      Re: That's a new definition of "alignment" then

      Which point is just a valid about the United States, just more so I believe. I think we're doing more than GCHQ but... who the frag knows. So whenever the latest dodge about privacy provisions around EU data is done by the US, both corporate and TLA's, goes up before the ECJ I expect to see it nuked. Again and again.

  8. Charlie Clark Silver badge

    Diversionary tactics

    All these papers that the government is producing at the moment are supposed to divert from the distinct lack of progress in the negotiations which the government will seek to blame the European Commission for. The fact is that government is petrified that when (and there is no if about this) it agrees that it will have to continue to make payments to the EU budget and guarantee the rights of EU citizens in the UK, there will be a revolt by the backbenchers and presumably a leadership challenge by that toad, Jacob Rees-Mogg.

    The UK has now got just over a year to get everything settled so that the other member states can debate and vote on any proposed deal. Odds on some kind of "provisional deal" that will merely cement the status quo?

    1. graeme leggett Silver badge

      Re: Diversionary tactics

      As the ECJ is one of those "red lines" that current government (or just Mrs May) has sworn they will fight to the very death over, we can probably expect much more obfuscation over the matter.

      Up until some agreement is made that UK gov will swear blind means that the ECJ is in no way arbiter of what is right or wrong with UKs dealings with EU but most everyone will point out is in fact the case.

      And the Daily Mail will either put up a triumphant front page likening HM Gov's actions to a mixture of Waterloo and Second El Alamein or a denouncement of aforesaid government as national traitors deserving of being strung up (though not in front of a petrol station as that's what Johnny foreigner would do)

Page:

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Other stories you might like