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back to article 'Driverless' lorry platoons will soon be on a motorway near you

The Transport Research Laboratory will be starting trials of semi-autonomous "platooning" technology, using lorries on UK roads. Live trials are expected to take place on Britain's "major roads" by the end of 2018, according to a government statement. These will make up the final stage of the project, with the first two being …

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  1. Alister

    Live trials are expected to take place on Britain's "major roads" by the end of 2018, according to a government statement.

    Great!, And how do they get to and from the "major roads" I wonder?

    Or is the plan just to drive a troop of lorries round and round the M25 until it turns into a gateway to another dimension?

    28 0 Reply
    1. Steve K
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      Odegra

      Aha, the dread sigil Odegra as represented by the shape of the M25 (thanks to Crawley's handiwork)

      31 0 Reply
      1. Anonymous Coward
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        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Odegra

        I know that Crawley is the pits (creepy crawley) and it is a relief to get out of the place but what has it to do with the shape of the M25?

        Is it the £2.50 minimum parking fee or the potholes that masquerade as roads or is it something else?

        1 3 Reply
        1. rmason
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          Re: Odegra

          It's a Terry Pratchett/Neil Gaimen reference.

          Don't worry, no one is picking on Crawley (as much as it deserves it).

          8 0 Reply
          1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
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            Coat

            "Don't worry, no one is picking on Crawley (as much as it deserves it)."

            Ah, I had thought some reference to the "Great Beast" himself, summoning some ancient evil.

            It's not a jacket, it's more a set of hooded robes

            4 1 Reply
        2. Jonathan Richards 1
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          Re: Odegra

          You must be new around here.

          https://www.ixquick.com/do/search?q=Odegra&l=english_uk

          1 0 Reply
        3. macjules
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          Re: Odegra

          Odegra Sigil

          0 0 Reply
    2. Pen-y-gors
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      Bum - I was about to say exactly the same thing!

      +1

      4 0 Reply
    3. Cuddles
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      "Great!, And how do they get to and from the "major roads" I wonder?"

      They'll be driven there by the drivers that all the lorrys will have. The convoy part only means the back lorries will copy the front one's (which is entirely manual) acceleration and braking, the steering will be done by a human who will still have full manual control when needed. The eventual plan might involve more automation, but these first tests are basically just adaptive cruise control with feed-forward instead of just feedback.

      As for the complaints that they could just use a train, the problem with trains, and Australian-style road trains, is that they're limited in where they can go and everything always has to end up at a central terminal before being loaded onto other vehicles for local distribution. The advantage of convoying regular lorries is that they can get similar fuel savings while on major trunk roads, but split away to different destinations as and when required.

      4 2 Reply
      1. Sir Runcible Spoon
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        My concern is how they overtake the old biddy doing 45mph in lane 1.

        If the first lorry is sending instructions back to the other two, then an overtake would have to take into account the whole length of the convoy before verifying it is safe to do so.

        It's hard for single lorries to get into the other lanes sometimes, so no idea how 3 will cope.

        7 0 Reply
        1. Martin Summers Silver badge
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          "It's hard for single lorries to get into the other lanes sometimes, so no idea how 3 will cope."

          Have you ever argued with a lorry pulling out into the lane you're in? I tend to find when they put their indicator on they just go for it.

          8 0 Reply
          1. caffeine addict
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            Actually, I find if you gently drift toward them, they get back in their lane surprisingly quickly...

            2 1 Reply
          2. Sir Runcible Spoon
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            Flame

            Have you ever argued with a lorry pulling out into the lane you're in? I tend to find when they put their indicator on they just go for it.

            Indeed I have, I was alongside at the time, driving myself and my wife back from an anniversary trip.

            The bastard heard me on the horn, we could both see him looking at us in his wing mirror. I was wedged up against the crash barrier on one side and his tyres on the other before I'd managed to slow up enough for the bulk of the lorry to pass in front of us - he didn't stop straight away either.

            Bastard nearly killed us and he didn't even get out of his cab when I managed to flag him down and turn into a petrol station forecourt.

            5 0 Reply
            1. Alan Brown Silver badge
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              "Bastard nearly killed us and he didn't even get out of his cab when I managed to flag him down and turn into a petrol station forecourt."

              Too bad you didn't have a dashcam. You could have called the cops instead and had it used as evidence of dangerous driving.

              1 0 Reply
          3. MachDiamond Silver badge
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            "Have you ever argued with a lorry pulling out into the lane you're in? I tend to find when they put their indicator on they just go for it."

            Lorry drivers use their indicators to let you know what they are going to do, not to ask permission. The schmuck driving in the lane the lorry wants to move to will suddenly speed up and block them if given too much time between the signal and the start of the move.

            1 1 Reply
        2. Brenda McViking
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          Go

          It's completely doable if you've ever done proper convoy driving and everyone in the convoy knows how to act - the front vehicle signals, the vehicle behind it does the same and so on all the way down the chain and the rear vehicle is the one to move over first but keeps constant speed once manoevured, thus opening a gap for the rest. You can only sensibly do it on 3+ lane motorways but it can work.

          0 0 Reply
      2. Anonymous Coward
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        Anonymous Coward

        the steering will be done by a human who will still have full manual control when needed

        In the trials, perhaps. But if this bad idea ever reaches the roads, then the "following" drivers will either be asleep or watching grumble-DVDs. And lane 2 will be blockaded by another singleton trucker trying to overtake a ten truck convoy with a 0.0001 mph speed difference.

        31 0 Reply
        1. MachDiamond Silver badge
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          "another singleton trucker trying to overtake a ten truck convoy with a 0.0001 mph speed difference."

          Known in the US as "Elephant Racing".

          6 0 Reply
      3. Stratman
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        So the speed of the convoy will be determined by the lead truck.

        Much like it is now.

        9 0 Reply
      4. John Smith 19 Gold badge
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        Unhappy

        "The convoy part only means the back lorries will copy the front one's"

        So much like that EU project a few years ago with the other cars staying a pre set distance apart and all vehicles braking and accelerating as a unit.

        I think they called that a "road-train" as well.

        This technology really is cutting edge.

        2 1 Reply
        1. Commswonk
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          Re: "The convoy part only means the back lorries will copy the front one's"

          @ John Smith 19: So much like that EU project a few years ago with the other cars staying a pre set distance apart and all vehicles braking and accelerating as a unit...

          ...This technology really is cutting edge.

          If I try very hard I can just about see "synchronous braking", but "accelerating as a unit" no

          OK if there are 3 identical LGVs, identically loaded then perhaps, but if the same vehicles are loaded with different weights then their acceleration performance is going to differ. The drive trains may have 8 / 12 / 16 gears, given range - change gearboxes and splitters, and for synchronised acceleration to work then those gear changes are going to have to be more or less synchronous as well. If the lead vehicle is lightly loaded it may only have to drop a single gear (which might necessitate a range change) while a following heavier - loaded vehicle might have to drop two gears (or even more) and might definitely need a range change to match any acceleration.

          Or are following vehicles going to be able to / have to signal forwards with "I cannot accelerate that fast; reduce Δv"?

          If the vehicles are of different design or manufacture (or even age) then their drive trains might be radically different (in terms of number of gears available and their ratios) so that one vehicle might require gear changes that another does not; LGVs have significantly different power bands (as indicated by the green segment on the rev counter) and so on...<further techy stuff omitted>

          I would hate to have be the driver in a "following" vehicle; I simply couldn't tolerate being forced to be that close to the vehicle ahead. Apart from that I would be in a state of perpetual worry about how far my legal liability extended in the event of a mishap.

          3 0 Reply
        2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
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          Re: "The convoy part only means the back lorries will copy the front one's"

          "I think they called that a "road-train" as well.

          This technology really is cutting edge."

          Exactly, so "cutting edge" that it was being experimented with in the 1970's with cars on test tracks.

          4 0 Reply
      5. JohnMurray
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        So: a long line of trucks driving up each others arses with minimal gaps between, with automatons behind the wheel.

        So: no change from now!

        On another tack, will the automatic driving devices be parked-up dogging the Laybys at night?

        2 0 Reply
    4. John Robson Silver badge
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      Getting to the major road is easy - you use a driver.

      Getting from the major road is even easier than now - you use a driver who is rested rather than one who has spent the last n hours concentrating on the (almost unchanging) road around them.

      This should reduce the tendency of HGV drivers to suffer from fatigue towards the end of their journey.

      6 6 Reply
      1. PickledAardvark
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        Rested drivers and the new Pony Express

        John Robson: "Getting from the major road is even easier than now - you use a driver who is rested..."

        In the UK, a lorry driver is "at rest" when s/he isn't at work. S/he can nap in the bunk with a second driver taking control, but it doesn't count as rest. The lorry has to be parked for the nap to become driver rest.

        One way around this limitation is for the lorry platoon to pull off the motorway, plonk a transfer driver from awaiting minibus to the cab of the lorry performing the local delivery, send another minibus to pick up the transfer driver from the goods depot for the next job, send minibus number three with another transfer driver when the lorry has been unloaded to take the lorry to a depot to be reloaded or to join a platoon unladen. It's a bit like horse drawn transport where the power unit has to be changed every 30 miles, but with less hay. I suspect that the algorithms used by train operators to put drivers in the right place may be applicable.

        All you need to worry about is the cost/environmental impact of minibuses and lost time taking platoons off the motorway. Don't fret about wage cost or availability of transfer drivers -- somebody will have a app for that. The economics of this system will become clear when high tech investors have operated it for a few years with huge losses and slowly withdraw subsidies after they have killed off the competition. Government will make their logistics easier too.

        Platoons are a bad option for HGV manufacturers. If there are fewer small hauliers and bigger big ones, profit per lorry sold falls.

        4 0 Reply
        1. M7S
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          Re: Rested drivers and the new Pony Express

          I may be being cynical, but I feel that once this tech is "proven", that drivers will still be required, just employed on something similar to a zero hours basis and therefore only for the fiddly bits at each end despite having to sit in the cab (presumably "on call" and thus liable for any problem, but not actually paid to drive) for the rest of the journey.

          4 0 Reply
      2. j.bourne
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        The driver is still going to have to concentrate on the road. It's not full autopilot being proposed just speed control.

        0 0 Reply
        1. John Robson Silver badge
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          "The driver is still going to have to concentrate on the road. It's not full autopilot being proposed just speed control."

          Yes they are initially proposing a lower level of assistance - but the end game is what we are concentrating on.

          In the same way that Mercury and Gemini were useless at getting men on the moon... except that they weren't.

          2 0 Reply
        2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          "The driver is still going to have to concentrate on the road. It's not full autopilot being proposed just speed control."

          ...and an even more boring view of the arse end of the HGV in front and not much else since it will be a *lot* closer than normal.

          1 0 Reply
      3. PassingStrange
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        Getting from the major road is even easier than now - you use a driver who is rested rather than one who has spent the last n hours concentrating on the (almost unchanging) road around them.

        No, you use a driver who has just spent n hours of mind-numbing boredom staring at the back of the vehicle in front with no more variety than twiddling the steering wheel enough to keep that vehicle much closer in front of him than he is likely to be comfortable with.

        I really hope the following vehicles have some sort of driver alertness monitor, because I don't want to be anywhere near that convoy after 3 or 4 hours on the road if it hasn't.

        6 0 Reply
    5. The Hungry Ghost
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      Terminator

      I believe that there will still be drivers steering the vehicle, and I presume able to take control if required, its just that the speed will be controlled by the lead vehicle allowing the trucks to be much closer to each other, benefiting from reduced wind resistance

      1 0 Reply
      1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        "benefiting from reduced wind resistance"

        Apart from the poor sap at the front who gets the full on effect of "breaking trail". Or will there be a regular shift of the lead lorry dropping to the back of the queue every so many miles? Like geese in V formation.

        1 0 Reply

    6. This post has been deleted by its author

    7. PassingStrange
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      Great!, And how do they get to and from the "major roads" I wonder?

      Apparently, the slaved lorries still have drivers, who are responsible for steering while they're "platooning". I presume that they'll simply take over and drive as normal at other times.

      Can't say I'm wildly enamoured; it sounds a classic case of some bright spark in a lab getting unrealistically enthusiastic, and selling the idea to a government department that doesn't know any better.

      7 0 Reply
    8. macjules
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      'Driverless' lorry platoons will soon be on a motorway near you

      Now think of the crash in sales of Yorkie bars and the decline in service station prostitution ..

      1 0 Reply
    9. Alan Brown Silver badge
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      " is the plan just to drive a troop of lorries round and round the M25 until it turns into a gateway to another dimension?"

      only if they drive widdershuns.

      0 0 Reply
  2. frank ly

    Versatility

    "... lorries doing 55.9mph up a single-carriageway hill, ..."

    Other, slower speeds will be available.

    17 0 Reply
    1. Boothy
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      Re: Versatility

      Including presumably the legal maximum speed for a HGV, which certainly isn't 55.9mpg on a single carriageway in the UK (It's 50 in England and Wales, 40 in Scotland).

      3 0 Reply
      1. DavCrav
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        Re: Versatility

        "Including presumably the legal maximum speed for a HGV, which certainly isn't 55.9mpg on a single carriageway in the UK (It's 50 in England and Wales, 40 in Scotland)."

        No. 40mph in England and Wales, 50mph for dual carriageways, 60mph on motorways.

        3 3 Reply
        1. fridaynightsmoke
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          Re: Versatility

          The speed limits in England & Wales for a >7.5t HGV have been 50mph (single carriageway), 60mph (dual carriageway) and 60mph (motorway) for several years now. https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

          2 0 Reply
  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Convoy

    C'mon....why is it a platoon? We all know we want ourselves a Convoy, good buddy.

    24 0 Reply
    1. Anonymous Coward
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      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Convoy

      Damn you for the earworm!

      'Cause we got a little convoy

      Rockin' through the night.

      Yeah, we got a little convoy,

      Ain't she a beautiful sight?

      4 0 Reply
      1. Chloe Cresswell Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        Re: Convoy

        Don't forget:

        It was a foggy day,

        on the 6th of may,

        In a scammell hauling bricks...

        ;)

        7 0 Reply
        1. Charles 9
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          Re: Convoy

          Hmm? That's not how I recall it:

          Was the dark of the moon

          on the 6th of June,

          In a Kenworth pullin' logs...

          2 0 Reply
          1. Chloe Cresswell Silver badge
            Reply Icon

            Re: Convoy

            That's because my lyrics are from Convoy GB https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-FZZ7ye7h8

            1 0 Reply
            1. Charles 9
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              Re: Convoy

              I thought about when I rolled over the word Scammell in my head and then looked it up and realized it's a British truck maker. Figures, must be a British version of the song. The one I quoted was the original by C. W. McCall (also covered by Kris Kristofferson, I think). Inspired a movie with its own lyrics.

              0 0 Reply
    2. Commswonk
      Reply Icon

      Re: Convoy

      @nick_rampart: C'mon....why is it a platoon?

      Listening with half an ear to Today on Radio 4 this morning it's because a company working on the technology has Peloton in its name, and Peloton is French for platoon.

      Simples <squeak>

      2 0 Reply
  4. Neil Barnes Silver badge

    A closely linked collection of container trucks, all moving at the same speed, coupled together, and controlled by a single driver? Wasn't the train invented in the 1800s?

    Or even better - given the absolute need to get containers full of tat across the country - get them on the canals...

    37 0 Reply
    1. Pen-y-gors
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      +1 for the train

      I'd give you a +2 for the canals if I could.

      15 1 Reply
    2. Rameses Niblick the Third Kerplunk Kerplunk Whoops Where's My Thribble?
      Reply Icon

      Absolutely. My first thought when I heard about this was something along the lines of "what's wrong with the Australian road train setup?" If the lorries are going to run that closely together, then surely a physical link rather than a virtual one is far safer and more appropriate? Because there will always be someone on the motorway that tries to pull in between lorries 2 and 3, and if they are closer than 1 car length apart, then hitch them together with a physical tow link.

      Overly complicated solution looking for a problem in my opinion.

      13 1 Reply

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